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DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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Comments

  • #1172
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    rabbitsears wrote: »
    Leaving the remaining 40% without Irish TV. Smart idea alright.

    No, 10% will be outside the coverage area at the start, falling to 2% in the long term. The others will have to errect a contract aerial at roof level, as defined in "coverage area". Many of these people aready have an aerial that will receive analogue, and so will also receive DTT on that same aerial. The guide, as far as I understand it, is that if you can receive TG4 on an aerial, the DTT will work for you. Most people who live in urban areas will be covered by the 60% I would think.

    People should not have to pay $ky to receive RTE television.


  • #1173
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    It was being retorical in my last reply I thought that was fairly obvious. I don't think Sky or UPC should remove RTÉ, TV3 (in some areas) and TG4 just because they are FTA.

    The thread had gone off topic, I was mearly pointing out that Sky and the cable companies could remove RTÉ, TV3 (in some areas) and TG4 from their line up and insist that people watch analogue RTÉ, TV3 (in some areas) and TG4. As I said the only reason you might think of getting Sky and UPC currently for RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 is for improved reception. But it was completely rhetorical for all of the reasons that ye pointed out. :rolleyes:
    So Elmo, do you see Sky being the platform for "foreign" telly and DTT being the platform for "home" telly?

    I think that DTT should be taken up with a majority of Irish TV stations.

    Pay DTT will contribute nothing to Irish broadcasting. In terms of (prime-time) content hours, in terms of jobs, in terms of quality, in terms of journalism, in terms of production values, etc. etc. etc. etc..

    Irish broadcasting is currently in a Duopoly state.


  • #1174
    Mountjoy Mugger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Mountjoy Mugger


    Elmo wrote: »
    Lets just remove RTÉ 1, 2, TV3 and TG4 from Sky Digital. Since everyone can get it why not remove it on UPC as Well. Why should cable companies have to carry the 4 Irish channels?

    There is no need to get Sky to watch RTÉ unless you want a better reception.


    TV3 hasn't universal coverage in Ireland. Certainly not in parts of West Mayo.
    Sky is the only means of viewing it.


  • #1175
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »
    TV3 hasn't universal coverage in Ireland. Certainly not in parts of West Mayo.
    Sky is the only means of viewing it.

    I know as I said the post was rhetorical.

    I was replying to endakenny's post:-
    RTÉ is the national public service broadcaster. Therefore, I do not see why any household in the Republic that has a working aerial would not be able to receive it. Therefore, there should be no need to get Sky in order to watch RTÉ.


  • #1176
    scath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭scath


    I suspect that the BAI have communicated to One Vision their response to One Vision's views and that on Monday it will be confirmed publicly the situation if its a license return. I suspect in the indo tomorrow we'll hear something...the question is are they being given another week to agree a compromise on all issues and whose position do the BAI agree with...I suspect it'll be One Vision gone, Easy TV awarded 26th May: Will they launch? But we have to wait and see lol. Sure its probably in the interest of RTÉ NL not to budge as they're probably at the cusp of a license offer. That really throws up conflict of interest apparently mightn't it!


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  • #1177
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    scath wrote: »

    That really throws up conflict of interest apparently mightn't it!

    That is what the regulator is for - if RTENL could charge what they liked, TV3 would be paying much more than they do. RTENL have to justify their charges, and they relate to their costs. A bond is a reasonable demand if there is the reasonable likelyhood that the consortium could walk away if the event that the venture fails. RTENL have invested a huge sum of RTE's money in DTT and want some chance of getting it back if the venture fails.

    You would complain if they did not and lost all that loot, like the banks have done.


  • #1178
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »
    TV3 hasn't universal coverage in Ireland. Certainly not in parts of West Mayo.
    Sky is the only means of viewing it.

    I'd say that most people who watch TV3 only do so in order to see Emmerdale, Coronation St and the X Factor. If they cannot get TV3 on terrestrial, they can get UTV free-to-air by manual tuning on Sky or buying the Sat4free dish and set-top box. Furthermore, the few Irish programmes shown on TV3 can be seen on the TV3 website.


  • #1179
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    endakenny wrote: »

    .... the few Irish programmes shown on TV3 can be seen on the TV3 website.

    If you think they are worth it.

    ...... and you have broadband. Most places that are not covered by TV3 are also not covered by broadband. So it's MMDS or $ky for them.

    With DTT most will be covered.


  • #1180
    scath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭scath


    Nowt in the papers today about One Vision...I guess the SBP is the next port of read as it were...should hear by Monday shouldn't we!


  • #1181
    carrolls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    scath wrote: »
    should hear by Monday shouldn't we!
    OneVision probably made the decision to not take the license in late summer 2009. Ryans and BAI's policy is to bury their head in the sand and give the impression that they are making decisive decisions on DTT. Obviously they are not, and that is one of the reasons why we are 13 years behind on DTT.
    The slogan that sums up Messrs Ryan and the BAI and the DTT debacle et al for me is "On a paid for basis". When they put BBC on the Irish DTT for the first time, there should be a DOG on top left of the screen On a paid for basis just to remind us of the idiocy that the Irish people had to endure over the last 13 years.


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  • #1182
    SPDUB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,352 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    carrolls wrote: »
    OneVision probably made the decision to not take the license in late summer 2009.

    It was at least 2010 .There was some work being done on it during the early part of this year


  • #1183
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Any competent Government would have had this sorted within a month max of Boxer handing back the licence.

    Actually wrong.


    It's been obvious since failure of ITV Digital/On Digital that DTT pay TV can't compete. Even more true in Ireland where DTT has to charge for channels that will remain free on Satellite (C5, C4, ITV, BBC). The whole process should not have been started, but concentration on HD only service (with upscaling for existing content and SetBoxes downscaling for existing TVs) and on a few extra indigenous channels.

    Like the NBS, the process was flawed since 1999 when they decided to take responsibility for roll out from RTE and the "It's TV" bid failed as they had no viable commercial plan.

    Well, in 2000 there was less free satellite UK TV than now. 10 years passing has just made the Pay DTT idea even less viable.

    I am 100% convinced that if a Pay TV DTT service as envisaged by the Government does launch, it will lose €50M to €200M+ before it goes bust.

    RTENL is absolutely right to insist on a Bond. The money they have been looking for is a minimum! It would be irresponsible of RTENL to have agreed to OneVision's proposals.

    I know people would like free BBC, UTV, C4 etc on DTT, but apart from the Royalties (which is not that huge annually) the distribution and Transmission cost is Millions annually, who pays? Who pays for the extra Multiplex rollouts needed? I don't want to pay x2 for my TV licence to suit the 10% of people that don't have Sky or UPC(>75%) OR ALSO don't want a 55cm dish.


  • #1184
    carrolls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    watty wrote: »
    Any competent Government would have had this sorted within a month max of Boxer handing back the licence.

    Actually wrong.


    It's been obvious since failure of ITV Digital/On Digital that DTT pay TV can't compete. Even more true in Ireland where DTT has to charge for channels that will remain free on Satellite (C5, C4, ITV, BBC). The whole process should not have been started, but concentration on HD only service (with upscaling for existing content and SetBoxes downscaling for existing TVs) and on a few extra indigenous channels.

    Like the NBS, the process was flawed since 1999 when they decided to take responsibility for roll out from RTE and the "It's TV" bid failed as they had no viable commercial plan.

    Well, in 2000 there was less free satellite UK TV than now. 10 years passing has just made the Pay DTT idea even less viable.

    I am 100% convinced that if a Pay TV DTT service as envisaged by the Government does launch, it will lose €50M to €200M+ before it goes bust.

    RTENL is absolutely right to insist on a Bond. The money they have been looking for is a minimum! It would be irresponsible of RTENL to have agreed to OneVision's proposals.

    I know people would like free BBC, UTV, C4 etc on DTT, but apart from the Royalties (which is not that huge annually) the distribution and Transmission cost is Millions annually, who pays? Who pays for the extra Multiplex rollouts needed? I don't want to pay x2 for my TV licence to suit the 10% of people that don't have Sky or UPC(>75%) OR ALSO don't want a 55cm dish.
    Watty, great post and its great to hear from you again.


  • #1185
    Pat Gleeson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Pat Gleeson


    carrolls wrote: »
    Watty, great post and its great to hear from you again.

    + 1


  • #1186
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    watty wrote: »
    I am 100% convinced that if a Pay TV DTT service as envisaged by the Government does launch, it will lose €50M to €200M+ before it goes bust.
    Agreed.
    RTENL is absolutely right to insist on a Bond. The money they have been looking for is a minimum! It would be irresponsible of RTENL to have agreed to OneVision's proposals.
    Yes but given that RTE couldn't be eejits and must know that it's a money burning non starter... wasn't it even more highly irresponsible of RTE [RTENL's bosses] to give the go ahead to buy the €70 million worth of equipment in the first place knowing the folly of the pay dtt idea by now?
    They'd have been better off spending quarter of that for one psb mux and the rest on quality programming..


  • #1187
    loguer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭loguer


    There's no way Onevision could have made DTT pay under the current model - to charge for the basic UK channels is foolish given that they are all available for free by satellite.

    However, as I have said before, the UK channel operators will insist that any foreign broadcaster (and foreign does include Ireland) pays them for any rebroadcasting of their channels. There is no reciprocal arrangements other than for BBC 1 NI and BBC 2 NI.

    So who will pick up the cost? The consumer? Not likely when you and I can watch those channels for free.

    The DTT retransmitter? Probably. But let's be honest with ourselves. Unless that company can undercut Sky, and now Real Digital which is on its way, they are sunk.

    Saorview will at best, offer the current four Irish channels (let's not kid ourselves about 3e) and maybe the Oireachtas channel, RTE News Now, some RTE HD programming and the Irish film channel.

    RTE should not rebroadcast the UK channels as they will need to pay the UK broadcasters for the right to do so and that charge would no doubt filter back through to the cost of a TV Licence. The rebroadcasting of the UK channels should be provided by whoever eventually gets the commercial DTT licence. But will punters be charged for them?

    DTT will go ahead, at least the Saorview part will. But the commercial success of DTT is in my opinion, pretty unlikely.


  • #1188
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    loguer wrote: »
    But the commercial success of DTT is in my opinion, pretty unlikely.

    I couldn't agree more. The idea of providing BBC, UTV and Channel 4 on Irish DTT should be dropped. Having a satellite dish installed may not be cheap, but it is definitely less expensive than paying a commercial DTT operator or UPC to see those channels. Those people in the Republic who never received the British channels and who don't have cable or satellite won't miss the channels that they didn't have in the first place.


  • #1189
    carrolls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭carrolls


    loguer wrote: »
    There is no reciprocal arrangements other than for BBC 1 NI and BBC 2 NI.
    Thanks to our esteemed minister Ryan, there isn't even BBC 1 NI and BBC 2 NI anymore.
    The reciprocal arrangement is now
    1: We give the RTE channels to our Northern neighbours for free.
    2: We get a kick up the hole in return.


  • #1190
    BoredNaMoaner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭BoredNaMoaner


    Right. There seems have been some basic lack of due diligence on the part of the government in choosing the DTT system in the first place. Despite consistently being in last place and having access to comprehensive information about the failures of the DTT pioneers in pay markets, the Irish government chose this model of rollout. Are they now going to commit to maintaining these expensive transmission facilities indefinitely? Surely some sort of Ireland-only smart card based system that would operate with any compatible sat receiver STB would have been a smarter, more economical choice? In order to receive RTE legally the user is already obliged to purchase a TV licence with their name and address. The smart-card could be posted out to the user to watch Irish FTA broadcasts off Astra. Why on Earth (!) was such a system rejected, the uplink costs and smart-card distribution costs?


  • #1191
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BoredNaMoaner wrote: »
    Right. There seems have been some basic lack of due diligence on the part of the government in choosing the DTT system in the first place. Despite consistently being in last place and having access to comprehensive information about the failures of the DTT pioneers in pay markets, the Irish government chose this model of rollout. Are they now going to commit to maintaining these expensive transmission facilities indefinitely? Surely some sort of Ireland-only smart card based system that would operate with any compatible sat receiver STB would have been a smarter, more economical choice? In order to receive RTE legally the user is already obliged to purchase a TV licence with their name and address. The smart-card could be posted out to the user to watch Irish FTA broadcasts off Astra. Why on Earth (!) was such a system rejected, the uplink costs and smart-card distribution costs?

    Are you suggesting to use satellite instead of DTT? People like me can't get satellite so I'd be stuck with UPC in that case. Also, having our national television infrastructure in the hands of an overseas operator isn't a great idea and I can't see us launching one either.

    Also, satellites can and do fail. With a terrestrial transmitter you can just go up the mountain and fix it but with satellite you're screwed unless the operator has decent backup capacity.


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  • #1192
    BoredNaMoaner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭BoredNaMoaner


    Can't receive satellite? I find that difficult to believe, I thought Sat had the greatest coverage. And I don't believe that the numbers who can not receive satellite could exceed those who might not be able to receive DTT transmissions for whatever reason. And as for regards failure of satellites, I would be more worried of a strike at RTE.


  • #1193
    Charles Slane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Charles Slane


    BoredNaMoaner wrote: »
    Can't receive satellite? I find that difficult to believe, I thought Sat had the greatest coverage.

    Some people live in places where it's either not allowed or not practical to put up a satellite dish.


  • #1194
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BoredNaMoaner wrote: »
    Can't receive satellite? I find that difficult to believe, I thought Sat had the greatest coverage. And I don't believe that the numbers who can not receive satellite could exceed those who might not be able to receive DTT transmissions for whatever reason. And as for regards failure of satellites, I would be more worried of a strike at RTE.

    You don't have a south facing 20ft railway embankment and bridge outside your house. I do. :(


  • #1195
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    It isn't a case of not being able to recieve satellite, rather, its that you aren't allowed satellite dishes in the majority of apartment complexes and certain managed estates. This is written into people's leases and they can't change them.

    Also doing this type of scheme, for any practical purposes, means either licencing VideoGuard from NDS - which is 50% owned by News Corporation - and setting up a conditional access system, or paying Sky to manage the system for you. There are public policy issues around having access to the national broadcaster controlled by a US/Australian corporation not to mention the cost involved. Indeed the BBC has abandoned this type of system in favour of free to air satellite broadcasting, although this isn't an option for Irish broadcasters as the rights holders would be far more worried about Irish broadcasters broadcasting into the lucrative UK territory than they are about UK broadcasters being available in Ireland.


  • #1196
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Indeed icdg.

    Also ASO and DSO is a commitment entered into under EU directives and Irish law.

    I see where a lot of this is coming from. Everybody wants the UK stuff and Irish stuff on one receiver regardless of the platform. That the majority of people (outside of interested boardsies) out there dont know that this IS available per a combo box that costs 150 euro will change in time. That should make the RTE on sat debate go away as well as the BBC on terrestrial for those willing to invest that small amount of money. I mean just how many people invest needlessly in subs to sky for basic UK and Irish channels that are FTA without any form of encryption card! A crazy amount.


  • #1197
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    icdg wrote: »
    Also doing this type of scheme, for any practical purposes, means either licencing VideoGuard from NDS - which is 50% owned by News Corporation - and setting up a conditional access system, or paying Sky to manage the system for you.

    I chucked a thread up in this forum on Real TV as an alternative possibility.


  • #1198
    Mr McBoatface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    STB wrote: »
    That the majority of people (outside of interested boardsies) out there don't know that this IS available per a combo box that costs 150 euro will change in time. That should make the RTE on sat debate go away as well as the BBC on terrestrial for those willing to invest that small amount of money .

    I've got a combo box a HTPC built by myself with full freesat and Irish DTT service and EPG. I agree that receivers with these capabilities make the BBC on terrestrial debate "go away" well at least for me and anybody I've made HTPC's for. The problem I find is that without an official launch of Irish DTT many people whom know off or are just informed of these type receivers prefer to stay clear of them just encase Irish DTT doesn't happen or for fear the "test" will stop for a few weeks.

    In my opinion it's another reason why Irish DTT should be launched straight away or ASAP. The uncertainty is affecting would be consumer confidence. The retailers/installers of these box most of whom would be small Irish businesses would have no problem selling/installing kits in large numbers could the advertise for a fact the boxes could receive Irish DTT channels and Free-sat/Free To View.


  • #1199
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    jobyrne30 wrote: »

    In my opinion it's another reason why Irish DTT should be launched straight away or ASAP. The uncertainty is affecting would be consumer confidence.

    The Saorview spec calls for HD capable STBs. Are they going to launch with a service that includes HD in any form?

    I would like to upgrade my TV but am unwilling to do so until I know exactly what is going to be launched. For example, I would like a Freesat/DTT Tv like the Sony KDLxxW5810, but I am not sure how it will integrate the Freesat with Irish DTT after launch. Will Sony make it so both can work with Ireland set as the country, or will the Freesat become FTA, as it does now?

    I will wait a while longer.


  • #1200
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The Saorview spec calls for HD capable STBs. Are they going to launch with a service that includes HD in any form?

    I would like to upgrade my TV but am unwilling to do so until I know exactly what is going to be launched. For example, I would like a Freesat/DTT Tv like the Sony KDLxxW5810, but I am not sure how it will integrate the Freesat with Irish DTT after launch. Will Sony make it so both can work with Ireland set as the country, or will the Freesat become FTA, as it does now?

    I will wait a while longer.

    byte posted that he was at a recent Sony trade event so he may have info. I posted some questions to him regarding the new Sony range but he didn't post a reply.

    HD, if any, won't launch until 2013 at the earliest - post ASO but even then it will depend on the economic climate. A Sony tv that currently displays the current DVB-T/MPEG-4 tests should have no problem with HD based on the current Irish DTT standard.

    The new Sony DVB-T2 range is on sony.ie (still listed as MPEG-2 :rolleyes:) no mention of MPEG-4/Soarview. Didn't check if any had an integrated satellite receiver but in any case I would not expect a freesat spec model, fta maybe.


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  • #1201
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Cush wrote: »

    The new Sony DVB-T2 range is on sony.ie (still listed as MPEG-2 :rolleyes:) no mention of MPEG-4/Soarview. Didn't check if any had an integrated satellite receiver but in any case I would not expect a freesat spec model, fta maybe.

    Sony have an apalling approach to the Irish market - it does not exist. They treat us as an insignificant adjunct to the UK market. The UK market does not have MPEG4 so neither do we.

    Most TV manufacturing companies do not include that important piece of information on their products. Not only that, but they disable bits of the equipment depending on which country you set. It should be possible to provide a 'custom' country which allows the user/installer/technician to set the features required.


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