Iran and the right to defend themselves

anymore · 17-04-2010 07:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

Iran is not linked to those events. They are Shia and considered apostate by the Jihadists. Shia muslims are a regular target of their attacks - far more than Westerners. Please at least try to demonstrate a basic knowledge of the subject.

That is far too superficial an analysis. The fact is that Iran has changed its attitude towards the Taliban as the circumstances suit it - as anyone familiar with the region would know. The relationships between all these disparate groups can vary depending on circumstances and alliances can be formed and be terminated quite quickly. You only have to look at Afghanistan to know this - you will find Afghanistan to the east of Palestine and Iran, roughly speaking :rolleyes:

anymore · 17-04-2010 07:42PM

Nodin wrote: »

And as I posted earlier -

Why are you posting the same thing twice, when you've already been shown that you are in error, and without addressing the refutation?

My goodnes you are sounding like CardiNAL Ratzenger when he was head of the CDF - are you some kind of cleric ?
As for the second, blame it on the vagries of my broadband service !
The point was worth repeating even though it was unintentional.

P.S you make it sound as if Iran had only one religion or one sect in the country - we know that isn't true, dont we ?

Nodin · 17-04-2010 08:23PM

anymore wrote: »

That is far too superficial an analysis. The fact is that Iran has changed its attitude towards the Taliban

You tried to make a link which doesn't exist. You're now throwing in the Taliban, by which logic we could say that as the US used support fundamentalist movements in Afghanistan (which they may well do again should "the circumstances suit it") they - by extension - support Al Qaeda.

anymore wrote: »

P.S you make it sound as if Iran had only one religion or one sect in the country - we know that isn't true, dont we ?

More messing about. Iran is a Shia theocracy, regardless of what minorities exist within its borders. If you want to show that theres a Sunni Wahabi sect in control of their Government, feel free to post the evidence.

eoin5 · 17-04-2010 09:24PM

anymore wrote: »

They do not brainwash kids into turning themselves into human bombs or spend years firing rockets at civilians or murdering thier politicial opponents. So who does ?

I have a theory on this, a bit off topic but in the Israel-Palestinian conflict it is a predictable result of the Israeli actions that they would cause Palestine to become a nation full of potential murderers. They seem to be doing it systematically. If they wanted to stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombings they would stop building the settlements and the incursions instead of constantly turning the screw. Its obvious that there are other things driving them besides the fear of attack. Of course I wouldn't excuse for a second any Palestinian parent or leader who encourages kids to kill anyone or throw their lives away.

anymore · 18-04-2010 11:44AM

eoin5 wrote: »

I have a theory on this, a bit off topic but in the Israel-Palestinian conflict it is a predictable result of the Israeli actions that they would cause Palestine to become a nation full of potential murderers. They seem to be doing it systematically. If they wanted to stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombings they would stop building the settlements and the incursions instead of constantly turning the screw. Its obvious that there are other things driving them besides the fear of attack. Of course I wouldn't excuse for a second any Palestinian parent or leader who encourages kids to kill anyone or throw their lives away.

After the last major military action in Gaza, the BBC interviewed a Plaestinian parent who was standing next to his teenege son and said his his dearest wish for his son was that he should die as a suicicde ' murderer'. This pot bellied murderous scumbag was trying to humiliate his son into mass murder by killing himself. He clearly has lived into a fat fleshed middle age and was brianiwashing his child into doing what he clearly didnt have the guts to do himself. This is the type of scumbag Israel is facing. If the father wanted to attack Israel for their invasion of Gaza, fair enough - it would be understandable, even perhaps laudable. But to humilitate those who are little more thsn children into becoming suicide bombers is cowardly.
And what of the BBC who so frequently speak of 'Our Brave Boys' in Afghanistan ? Did thier interviewer point out how appalling the behaviour of this man was ? NO. Did he say that suicicde bombers are killing their 'Brave Boys' in Afghanisatan. NO by his silence and the BBC by showing this clip in fact are complicit in encouraging the murder of civilians and thier own soldiers by suicide bombers. Did any Uk charity that deal with children raise any objections ? No. The politically coverage of Palestine has corrupted the values of even British institutions such as the BBC and UK charities.

anymore · 18-04-2010 11:59AM

Nodin wrote: »

You tried to make a link which doesn't exist. You're now throwing in the Taliban, by which logic we could say that as the US used support fundamentalist movements in Afghanistan (which they may well do again should "the circumstances suit it") they - by extension - support Al Qaeda.

More messing about. Iran is a Shia theocracy, regardless of what minorities exist within its borders. If you want to show that theres a Sunni Wahabi sect in control of their Government, feel free to post the evidence.

This is a remarkable post even by your low standards !
Al Qaeda is a Saudi Arabian sponsored terrorist organisation and of course The House of Saud only exists because of US support. Who were the only people allowed to fly on civil flights on the day after 9/11 ? Why of course the Ben Ladens ! No inconvenient questions for the family that has funded Al Qaeda. Curious that isnt it ? Even more curious the very low military operation that couuld have captured Ben Laden himself and his top commanders if it had been substantially bigger and better organised. Here is an interesting quote from a US commander.

Fury, in an interview on 60 Minutes, stated that his Delta Force team and CIA Paramilitary Officers traveled to Tora Bora after the CIA pinpointed bin Laden's location in that area. Fury's team proposed an operation in which they would assault bin Laden's suspected position from the rear, over the 14,000 foot high mountain separating Tora Bora from Pakistan. But, Fury's proposal was denied by unidentified officials at higher headquarters for unknown reasons. Fury then proposed the dropping of GATOR mines in the passes leading away from Tora Bora, but this was also denied. Forced to approach the al-Qaeda forces from the front, at one point Fury reports that his team was within 2,000 meters of bin Laden's suspected position, but withdrew because of uncertainty over the number of al-Qaeda fighters guarding bin Laden and a lack of support from allied Afghan troops.[6]

The explanation ? I dont know - but for sure you cant blame Israel for this.
Here is a little info on Wahhabism for you.
.., Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia's dominant faith. It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who don't practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies. Critics say that Wahhabism's rigidity has led it to misinterpret and distort Islam, pointing to extremists such as Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. Wahhabism's explosive growth began in the 1970s when Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques from Islamabad to Culver City, California. Here are excerpts from FRONTLINE's interviews with Mai Yamani, an anthropologist who studies Saudi society; Vali Nasr, an authority on Islamic fundamentalism; Maher Hathout, spokesperson for the Islamic Center of Southern California; and Ahmed Ali, a Shi'a Muslim from Saudi Arabia. (Also see the Links and Readings section of this site for more analyses of Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia.)

As for |Iran's suppression of religious minorities, it is probably better to post this on a thread about the real aparthed in ME,

BluePlanet · 18-04-2010 12:31PM

Isn't 60 Minutes a rather populist, sensational "news/current affairs" program like RTE's Prime Time?

Doesn't sound like a particularly sound source for facts.
I see they've been cited by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting a few times.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3782

eoin5 · 18-04-2010 01:07PM

anymore wrote: »

After the last major military action in Gaza, the BBC interviewed a Plaestinian parent who was standing next to his teenege son and said his his dearest wish for his son was that he should die as a suicicde ' murderer'. This pot bellied murderous scumbag was trying to humiliate his son into mass murder by killing himself. He clearly has lived into a fat fleshed middle age and was brianiwashing his child into doing what he clearly didnt have the guts to do himself. This is the type of scumbag Israel is facing. If the father wanted to attack Israel for their invasion of Gaza, fair enough - it would be understandable, even perhaps laudable. But to humilitate those who are little more thsn children into becoming suicide bombers is cowardly.

No-one is excusing that tool but isn't he a very predictable outcome of the situation that Israel choose to maintain?

And good news reporting is just that, news reporting. I'd prefer if there was no support given to the troops from the media, not even those poppy yolks. You don't see anyone wearing anything to signify all the innocent Iraqi or Afghan deaths caused by the invasions.

Nodin · 18-04-2010 04:11PM

anymore wrote: »

This is a remarkable post even by your low standards !,

If you want to quote the sections that are factually incorrect or that you have a problem with, I'm willing to answer any questions you might have.

anymore wrote: »

Al Qaeda (....)n troops.[6]!,

You'll be delighted to know that we have a Conspiracy Theory Forum.

anymore wrote: »

Here is a little info on Wahhabism for you.!,

Your effort is appreciated, but unnecessary. I'm quite familiar with it.

anymore wrote: »

After the last (.....)the BBC and UK charities.
.!,

Base invective with a bit of well poisoning thrown in the mix.

Mahatma coat · 19-04-2010 08:39AM

You'll be delighted to know that we have a Conspiracy Theory Forum.

Shush you, the last thing we need is for this thread to wind up in CT, maybe TCN would be a better place judging by some of the 'Debate'

anymore · 19-04-2010 06:23PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

Isn't 60 Minutes a rather populist, sensational "news/current affairs" program like RTE's Prime Time?

Doesn't sound like a particularly sound source for facts.
I see they've been cited by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting a few times.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3782

"
On May 10, CBS's 60 Minutes presented a remarkably one-sided report on unmanned Air Force drones firing missiles into Afghanistan and Iraq. Though the drones have been criticized for killing civilians in both countries, CBS viewers heard from no critics of the weapons. "

Tell me how many anti israel critics spend time criticising Suicide murderers ?

Nodin · 19-04-2010 06:26PM

anymore wrote: »

"

Tell me how many anti israel critics spend time criticising Suicide murderers ?[/FONT]

How would the activity of one group have any bearing on the activity of a completely unrelated one? If theres a problem with (a) than failings on the part of (b) don't make it dissappear - they exist regardless. Why not address a question instead of trying to evade it, for once.

anymore · 19-04-2010 06:27PM

Nodin wrote: »

Iran is not linked to those events. They are Shia and considered apostate by the Jihadists. Shia muslims are a regular target of their attacks - far more than Westerners. Please at least try to demonstrate a basic knowledge of the subject.

Iran is one of the major sponsors of terrorism in the ME. As we know it is now, once again, using terror against its own people even to the extent of having security people raping male and female protesters arrested during the post christmas demostrations and shooting unarmed protesters!

Nodin · 19-04-2010 06:34PM

anymore wrote: »

Iran (.....) protesters!

...which has nothing to do with the fact that they are not linked to the Sunni Jihadi movement in the way you implied. Nor does their hanging gays, public floggings, or dislike for a pint. You can in fact link every atrocity committed by an Iranian since the days of Darius, and its not going to make any difference to that.

Poccington · 19-04-2010 07:41PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

Isn't 60 Minutes a rather populist, sensational "news/current affairs" program like RTE's Prime Time?

Doesn't sound like a particularly sound source for facts.
I see they've been cited by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting a few times.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3782

Although I can't speak on 60 Minutes as a program, "Dalton Fury" was the Delta Force commander on the ground in Tora Bora at the time.

Although I can't see what that has to do with the thread really. Oh well :pac:

anymore · 21-04-2010 08:23PM

Nodin wrote: »

...which has nothing to do with the fact that they are not linked to the Sunni Jihadi movement in the way you implied. Nor does their hanging gays, public floggings, or dislike for a pint. You can in fact link every atrocity committed by an Iranian since the days of Darius, and its not going to make any difference to that.

You may see life as black and white if you wish and for as long as you like. But the most of the rest of us see life in all its different colours and tones !
By the way are you saying no Shiites see or believe in Jihad ?

Nodin · 21-04-2010 10:53PM

anymore wrote: »

You may see life as black and white if you wish and for as long as you like. But the most of the rest of us see life in all its different colours and tones !

......which still doesn't change the fact that Iran was not linked to any of the events you tried to imply they were.

anymore wrote: »

By the way are you saying no Shiites see or believe in Jihad ?

.....I'm sure some do - as a personal struggle, perhaps even as a war against the 'infidel' - , none of which will cut any ice with the Sunni Jihadists who kill them because they're Shia. Nor will it make your earlier attempt to link Iran and those attacks any less wrong.

anymore · 24-04-2010 04:33PM

Nodin wrote: »

......which still doesn't change the fact that Iran was not linked to any of the events you tried to imply they were.

.....I'm sure some do - as a personal struggle, perhaps even as a war against the 'infidel' - , none of which will cut any ice with the Sunni Jihadists who kill them because they're Shia. Nor will it make your earlier attempt to link Iran and those attacks any less wrong.

But why should a Sunni kill a Shiite or vice versa, surely being a Muslim should be enough to protect them from being killed by a fellow co-religionist ? This is what I dont understand. I rpesume the Koran must disapprove of this type of killing of fellow Muslims ?

Nodin · 24-04-2010 08:44PM

anymore wrote: »

But why should a Sunni kill a Shiite or vice versa, surely being a Muslim should be enough to protect them from being killed by a fellow co-religionist ? This is what I dont understand. I rpesume the Koran must disapprove of this type of killing of fellow Muslims ?

Why does Protestant kill Catholic and vice versa?

Trying to shift the focus from your false linkage, are we?

anymore · 24-04-2010 09:09PM

Nodin wrote: »

Why does Protestant kill Catholic and vice versa?

Trying to shift the focus from your false linkage, are we?

Well i have several times tried to point out that the various groups in Norther ireland had to commit to stop violence in order to complete the Peace process. It wasnt a case of completing the political process and then stopping the violence, it was the other way around.

As for linkage, Iran is involved with a number of the groups in Palestine, in fact it recruits palestinians, trains them and uses them in Palestine to further its aims of destabilising israel.

24-04-2010 10:43PM

anymore wrote: »

Well i have several times tried to point out that the various groups in Norther ireland had to commit to stop violence in order to complete the Peace process. It wasnt a case of completing the political process and then stopping the violence, it was the other way around.

Before any peace could occur in the North there had to be the realisation that more could be gained through peaceful means (negotiation) than from violence/war. The peace process provided a guide to many who couldn't see beyond their "reasons" for fighting. Both were required for the fighting to stop.

When it comes to the Middle East, comparing the north, is like comparing a magnesium flare to a block of plastic explosive. There is a lot more history, and cultural differences that ever existed in the North. Never mind that the Middle East concerns dozens of nationalities, and religions, each with their own set of hatreds, and remembered offenses.

As for linkage, Iran is involved with a number of the groups in Palestine, in fact it recruits palestinians, trains them and uses them in Palestine to further its aims of destabilising israel.

That's speculation on your part and others. Its reasonable to assume it considering the history between Israel and the other Arab nations, particularly Iran, but its still speculation. Those Palestinians could be trained/sponsored by any of the Arab nations. (and a number of non-arab countries who don't particularly like Israel or western influence in the M.East)

The basic fact is that Iran has made no direct attack on Israel. If Iran does "sponsor" attacks on Israel, then its part of the politics of the region. Israel does its own part, since they manage to destabilise the region all by themselves, although they are "sponsored" by the US. The Arab nations have learned to fight by learning from the actions of the US and western countries. Its kind of hard to figure out who started what, and who supplies the largest amount of $$$.

Iran, for the most part, has held itself above direct involvement of Israeli affairs. Which is hard to do considering their actions over the last few decades. I might believe in Israel's right to exist, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to their stupidity in generating conflict at every corner.

Nodin · 24-04-2010 11:18PM

anymore wrote: »

Well i have (....) it was the other way around..

Which is irrelevant to your attempt to link a Shia state to a group of events perpetrated by Jihadis sunnis who target shia on a regular basis.

anymore wrote: »

As for linkage, (......)destabilising israel.

...which again, isn't the linkage you made earlier.

anymore · 25-04-2010 11:04AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Before any peace could occur in the North there had to be the realisation that more could be gained through peaceful means (negotiation) than from violence/war. The peace process provided a guide to many who couldn't see beyond their "reasons" for fighting. Both were required for the fighting to stop.

When it comes to the Middle East, comparing the north, is like comparing a magnesium flare to a block of plastic explosive. There is a lot more history, and cultural differences that ever existed in the North. Never mind that the Middle East concerns dozens of nationalities, and religions, each with their own set of hatreds, and remembered offenses.

That's speculation on your part and others. Its reasonable to assume it considering the history between Israel and the other Arab nations, particularly Iran, but its still speculation. Those Palestinians could be trained/sponsored by any of the Arab nations. (and a number of non-arab countries who don't particularly like Israel or western influence in the M.East)

The basic fact is that Iran has made no direct attack on Israel. If Iran does "sponsor" attacks on Israel, then its part of the politics of the region. Israel does its own part, since they manage to destabilise the region all by themselves, although they are "sponsored" by the US. The Arab nations have learned to fight by learning from the actions of the US and western countries. Its kind of hard to figure out who started what, and who supplies the largest amount of $$$.

Iran, for the most part, has held itself above direct involvement of Israeli affairs. Which is hard to do considering their actions over the last few decades. I might believe in Israel's right to exist, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to their stupidity in generating conflict at every corner.

No it is not specualtion on my part - I find it puzzling that people should resist the notion that Iran would provide trainning for Palestinian operatives when it provides so much miliatry material ?
In any event Israeli forces are very much aware of it :
" GOC Southern Command Major General Yoav Galant has confirmed that Iranian terror and guerrilla experts are in the Gaza Strip training Palestinian terror organizations. Galant says the Iranians are the source of most of the know-how coming to the West Bank, Lebanon and Iraq on the use of land mines, explosives and anti-tank missiles. "

I will save Wes et al from posting to say that an Israeli army commander cant be relied on by saying " Yes an Israeli soldier is biases ", but that does not mean they cant be right.
There are recorded cases of Palestinians taken to Iran for medical being recruited, trained and sent back to Palestine as operatives. Again I fail to see why anyone would be surprised at this.
Special forces from major armies regularily train citizens of foreign countries when it suits their purposes.
Iran itself has defended its rights to supply insurgents in Palestine and Lebanon. Check it out on You tube if you wish.

wes · 25-04-2010 11:52AM

anymore wrote: »

I will save Wes et al from posting to say that an Israeli army commander cant be relied on by saying " Yes an Israeli soldier is biases ", but that does not mean they cant be right.

No, its not so much the bias, as in the IDF are known liars, and as such can't be taken at there word.

anymore wrote: »

There are recorded cases of Palestinians taken to Iran for medical being recruited, trained and sent back to Palestine as operatives. Again I fail to see why anyone would be surprised at this.

Well, if there "recorded", as you say, then I am sure you can provide some proof.

anymore wrote: »

Special forces from major armies regularily train citizens of foreign countries when it suits their purposes.
Iran itself has defended its rights to supply insurgents in Palestine and Lebanon. Check it out on You tube if you wish.

None of this is proof of your claims.

af_thefragile · 25-04-2010 12:15PM

anymore wrote: »

But why should a Sunni kill a Shiite or vice versa, surely being a Muslim should be enough to protect them from being killed by a fellow co-religionist ? This is what I dont understand. I rpesume the Koran must disapprove of this type of killing of fellow Muslims ?

Wasn't always like that. Its only recently that they're killing eachother.
Before america invaded Iraq, shias and sunnis used to live together peacefully. I know a few people from Iraq who's dad is a sunni while mom is a shia or the other way round.

Its only because of america (and UKs) incompetence in Iraq that such violence has started. The same old tactic of divide and rule being applied there.
Happened between protestants and catholics in the North.
Happened between Hutus and Tutsis in Rawanda.
Its happening in Iraq between sunnis and shias.

25-04-2010 01:08PM

anymore wrote: »

No it is not specualtion on my part - I find it puzzling that people should resist the notion that Iran would provide trainning for Palestinian operatives when it provides so much miliatry material ?

Resist? I said its speculation, not that they aren't involved. Can you prove otherwise? Nope? very well then. Move on.

In any event Israeli forces are very much aware of it :
" GOC Southern Command Major General Yoav Galant has confirmed that Iranian terror and guerrilla experts are in the Gaza Strip training Palestinian terror organizations. Galant says the Iranians are the source of most of the know-how coming to the West Bank, Lebanon and Iraq on the use of land mines, explosives and anti-tank missiles. "

I will save Wes et al from posting to say that an Israeli army commander cant be relied on by saying " Yes an Israeli soldier is biases ", but that does not mean they cant be right.

I'll save Wes the bother... I'll ask for other sources and better ones that this example. Perhaps you have complete dossiers of reputable investigations by organisations not involved with the conflict?

Otherwise, you're using information that's tarnished by association (and propaganda) or you're using information that speculator(y) in nature.

You're obviously missing my point regarding speculation. Perhaps reread what I've written in this post and the last one?

There are recorded cases of Palestinians taken to Iran for medical being recruited, trained and sent back to Palestine as operatives. Again I fail to see why anyone would be surprised at this.
Special forces from major armies regularily train citizens of foreign countries when it suits their purposes.
Iran itself has defended its rights to supply insurgents in Palestine and Lebanon. Check it out on You tube if you wish.

Ahh, yes, Youtube... the foundation of all things truthful, accurate, etc etc etc. :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure if i searched long enough I could find something on youtube which says that Israel is the devil and causes every bit of trouble in the middle east. Youtube is a propaganda minefield.

I also figure you skipped over when i said this:
"The basic fact is that Iran has made no direct attack on Israel. If Iran does "sponsor" attacks on Israel, then its part of the politics of the region. Israel does its own part, since they manage to destabilise the region all by themselves, although they are "sponsored" by the US. The Arab nations have learned to fight by learning from the actions of the US and western countries. Its kind of hard to figure out who started what, and who supplies the largest amount of $$$."

Manic Moran · 26-04-2010 01:49AM

Wasn't always like that. Its only recently that they're killing eachother.
Before america invaded Iraq, shias and sunnis used to live together peacefully. I know a few people from Iraq who's dad is a sunni while mom is a shia or the other way round

And before Tito died, Serbs and Bosnians and Kosovars all lived together peacefully and intermarried. We all know how that ended up. It just takes a small amount of nationalistic agitators once the 'clamp' of a fairly authoritive government is removed.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its only because of america (and UKs) incompetence in Iraq that such violence has started. The same old tactic of divide and rule being applied there.
Happened between protestants and catholics in the North.
Happened between Hutus and Tutsis in Rawanda.
Its happening in Iraq between sunnis and shias.

For starters, you're contradicting yourself. If you think it's the plan of 'divide and rule', then obviously the dividing has worked, and incompetence does not apply.

Secondly, where is the benefit to the US (Or any of the other coalition countries) of having an unstable Iraq?

NTM

anymore · 30-04-2010 08:17PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

Wasn't always like that. Its only recently that they're killing eachother.
Before america invaded Iraq, shias and sunnis used to live together peacefully. I know a few people from Iraq who's dad is a sunni while mom is a shia or the other way round.

Its only because of america (and UKs) incompetence in Iraq that such violence has started. The same old tactic of divide and rule being applied there.
Happened between protestants and catholics in the North.
Happened between Hutus and Tutsis in Rawanda.
Its happening in Iraq between sunnis and shias.

Here is a note on book covering Sunni/Shia rivalry

It began with a question asked after a particularly ghastly suicide bombing in Iraq: "How come Muhammad, the prophet of unity who spoke of one people and one God, left behind him this terrible, unending, bloody legacy of division between Sunni and Shia?" The question haunted me, and led me to the magnificent story of the struggle for leadership after Muhammad's death, an epic as alive and powerful today as when it first happened
http://ebook30.com/theology-occultism/theology-occultism/137910/after-the-prophet-the-epic-story-of-the-shia-sunni-split-in-islam.html

Sunni Shia rivalry is centuried old and has nothing to do with US. This rivalry is internal to the religion - no need to look for americans etc to blame.

northwest100 · 01-05-2010 04:51AM

Manic Moran wrote:

Secondly, where is the benefit to the US (Or any of the other coalition countries) of having an unstable Iraq?

Since you have a problem with media censorship over there

i could answer that.

An unstable and weak Iraq helps justify to the sheeple of america an indefinite military occupation.

Occupation is necessary for strategic purposes and the economic prize, which is oil and gas.

For god's sake, you don't still believe they are there to fight terrorism, do you? lol

give me a break.

They're in Iraq for the same reason they're in afghanistan and now planning to invade Iran.

Energy...oil and gas, plain and simple.

Manic Moran · 01-05-2010 07:55AM

northwest100 wrote: »

Since you have a problem with media censorship over there i could answer that.

An unstable and weak Iraq helps justify to the sheeple of america an indefinite military occupation.

Occupation is necessary for strategic purposes and the economic prize, which is oil and gas.

For god's sake, you don't still believe they are there to fight terrorism, do you? lol give me a break.

They're in Iraq for the same reason they're in afghanistan and now planning to invade Iran.

Energy...oil and gas, plain and simple.

Surely you would admit that it is a lot more efficient for the Americans to simply install a puppet government, not foster division and fighting, and let the oil flow without the lines getting blown up every three weeks and having the odd oil engineer getting killed in the sectarian violence?

NTM

Iran and the right to defend themselves

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