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Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

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Comments

  • #302
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    That's just your rather narrow view on things...how other people choose to live their lives or interact with their family is up to them, you may not agree with it but you have no right to demand they change purely to satiate your own personal opinions on the matter.

    This point is the main point of the whole thread. It's about parents being in freedom to conduct family life as they deem fit and appropriate to, and to raise their own children as they deem best.

    That's all that's being expected from people of differing faith groups. Indeed, it's what is expected from everyone. After all choosing to raise people with secular beliefs is exactly the same as the choice of another family to raise their children with Christian belief and values.

    We can argue all day about it being "bad parenting" but in all actuality it isn't really all that different from any other choice about how to conduct family.

    I probably have taken liberties with Ickle Magoo's quote, but it is refreshing to see some form of a reasonable take on this rather than the rather unbelievable child abuse, and indoctrination line, which isn't going to do any favours in expressing your beliefs to those who disagree with you.

    We can, and we prefer to talk about these things without such sensationalist language.


  • #303
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I have a friend who's father kicked the shít out of him when he said he was an atheist and has barely uttered a dozen words to him since (this was over a decade ago).
    That sounds like a really fcuked up relationship. I'm sure there are many examples like it that have nothing to do with religion, for example, fathers beating their sons because the found out they were gay. But, yes, fear of a beating might be a good reason to hide your beliefs
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I have witnessed the gnashing of teeth and wailing of a mother who's daughter didn't want a church wedding and was threatening to never speak to the girl again unless she wed in the parish church.
    That sounds like emotional blackmail pure and simple. I would be inclined to tell my mother where to get off in a case like this. Would it damage the relationship? Perhaps. Who would be responsible for the damage? The mother.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Why not? I have friends with elderly parents who have no wish to upset them. They are not rabid atheists, they feel no sense of personal betrayal by going through the motions for the sake of making people they love happy...and that's their prerogative. :cool:
    My atheism is deeply important to me and I've made it very clear to my parents that Christianity is unacceptable. If I found out that they were practising Christianity there would be hell to pay; I wouldn't stand for it, it would damage our relationship and they know this. I might even have to dole out a beating. Now whenever I visit them, I see no religious iconography, there is no sign a bible and they don't talk about faith. I can't be sure what they do when I'm not about, but I suppose that's just because faith is a deeply personal kind of thing.
    We have a wonderful relationship.


  • #304
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dvpower wrote: »
    My atheism is deeply important to me and I've made it very clear to my parents that Christianity is unacceptable. If I found out that they were practising Christianity there would be hell to pay; I wouldn't stand for it, it would damage our relationship and they know this. I might even have to dole out a beating. Now whenever I visit them, I see no religious iconography, there is no sign a bible and they don't talk about faith. I can't be sure what they do when I'm not about, but I suppose that's just because faith is a deeply personal kind of thing.
    We have a wonderful relationship.

    :confused: - Please explain this, I'm assuming you don't actually do this?


  • #305
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I probably have taken liberties with Ickle Magoo's quote

    You have, of course. :p

    In an ideal world parents wouldn't emotionally blackmail or threaten their kids, or cut them off or send them to laundries, I think there is a lot about religion that encourages and even causes some horrendous parenting and relationship issues. How people choose to deal with that fact of life is up to them, sure, but it's an issue I'd rather didn't exist and something I'm sure we'll see less of as religion loses it's strangle hold on the general populous.
    dvpower wrote: »
    That sounds like a really fcuked up relationship. I'm sure there are many examples like it that have nothing to do with religion, for example, fathers beating their sons because the found out they were gay. But, yes, fear of a beating might be a good reason to hide your beliefs

    Indeed - but many fecked up a relationship exists out there.
    dvpower wrote: »
    That sounds like emotional blackmail pure and simple. I would be inclined to tell my mother where to get off in a case like this. Would it damage the relationship? Perhaps. Who would be responsible for the damage? The mother.

    You might, others wouldn't - that's the point. Some people don't want to fall out with parents or state they are being emotionally blackmailed or damage the relationship regardless of who is responsible, claiming atheism just isn't that important to some people.
    dvpower wrote: »
    My atheism is deeply important to me and I've made it very clear to my parents that Christianity is unacceptable. If I found out that they were practising Christianity there would be hell to pay; I wouldn't stand for it, it would damage our relationship and they know this. I might even have to dole out a beating. Now whenever I visit them, I see no religious iconography, there is no sign a bible and they don't talk about faith. I can't be sure what they do when I'm not about, but I suppose that's just because faith is a deeply personal kind of thing.
    We have a wonderful relationship.

    You think dictating to your parents is any more healthy than parents dictating to their kids? I don't see a difference tbh...


  • #306
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Jakkass wrote: »
    :confused: - Please explain this, I'm assuming you don't actually do this?
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    You think dictating to your parents is any more healthy than parents dictating to their kids? I don't see a difference tbh...

    I was trying to twist a situation that seems reasonably common (well, maybe not the beatings) to make it sound utterly bizarre when turned on its head.

    It didn't work out :o


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  • #307
    begood2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4 ✭begood2


    I think it is selfish and the child should decide for himself/herself when their older. I don't think we need religion anyway. and I don't think anyone really believes in it when it come down to it. In Ireland anyway. So I ultimately think religion is a waste of time. Morals are thought to the child by their parents and society which has set up guideline of right and wrong for the common good


  • #308
    pinksoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,737 ✭✭✭pinksoir


    dvpower wrote: »
    I was trying to twist a situation that seems reasonably common (well, maybe not the beatings) to make it sound utterly bizarre when turned on its head.

    It didn't work out :o
    Ah, don't worry. I got it.:)


  • #309
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This point is the main point of the whole thread. It's about parents being in freedom to conduct family life as they deem fit and appropriate to, and to raise their own children as they deem best.
    Nope, its that it is selfish for a parent to teach a child that their religion is the truth as if it were fact.


  • #310
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    dvpower wrote: »
    I guess if its just a little white lie then its probably better to say nothing. I wonder how its going to play out, say, when you have kids of your own. To sustain the lie aren't you going to have to bring them along to get baptised and raise them as Christians?

    No, obviously. I would view that as unfair and potentially damaging to my kids. That concern would obviously outweigh the risk of creating stress for my parent. Me going to Christmass mass with my father does no harm to anyone and makes him feel better, there is a world of difference between that and lying to my children in order to indoctrinate them into a cult I don't believe in.


  • #311
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Yes, yes, we all know your equally emotional and illogical responses to what other people choose to do.

    Is religion rubbish?

    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I wasn't brought up with religion, my parents forced nothing on me and they are not selfishly expecting me to believe anything, what are you wittering on about now? :confused:

    Don't be so dramatic.

    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    That's their choice, though. No-one HAS to declare their faith or lack of, no-one MUST go to church when religious or refuse to cross the thresh-hold if not. It's not absolutely black and white for everyone, I'd imagine the majority are in rather a grey area of having religious family or even dating or marrying religious people - faith isn't something everyone can just wipe out of their life - and nor does everyone want to, for that matter.

    Do you believe religion is a force for good, or is it a disgusting mind control system of indoctrination for weak minded people.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    That's just your rather narrow view on things...how other people choose to live their lives or interact with their family is up to them, you may not agree with it but you have no right to demand they change purely to satiate your own personal opinions on the matter.

    A narrow view on things.

    Do you believe dawkins and hitchens have a narrow view?


    Do you think its OK that [...PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED...] will brainwash their kids with lies and bronze age stories, do you think that form of brainwashing is acceptable in 2010.

    .


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  • #312
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Erren Music wrote: »
    Do you think its OK that [...PERSONAL COMMENTS REMOVED...] will brainwash their kids with lies and bronze age stories [...]
    Your next personally-directed unpleasant comment will earn you a one-month ban.


  • #313
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    I would like to know what coment you mean. I have seen far worse on this forum.


  • #314
    ColmDawson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    Erren Music wrote: »
    I would like to know what coment you mean. I have seen far worse on this forum.
    You may have seen worse, but haven't you also seen far, far better?


  • #315
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Erren Music wrote: »
    I would like to know what coment you mean.
    Your personal comments about other boards users that Robindch removed.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    I have seen far worse on this forum.
    Forgetting for a moment that you say you've seen far worse despite not even knowing what comment was censured - if you have seen something like this - report it.

    Take this to PM or let it go NOW.


  • #316
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    robindch wrote: »
    Your next personally-directed unpleasant comment will earn you a one-month ban.

    how was that personal, i have not specifically said any person by name


  • #317
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Erren Music on another holiday for this, and misc other reasons.
    Dades wrote: »
    Take this to PM or let it go NOW.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    how was that personal, i have not specifically said any person by name

    Moving on...


  • #318
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dang, Dades got in before I did :)
    Erren Music wrote: »
    how was that personal, i have not specifically said any person by name
    In your original post, you mentioned the names of two posters from another forum in distinctly derogatory tones. Like almost every other forum on boards, that's not permitted here.

    During this break, please do take the time to read the forum charter and rules:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054860288

    Especially rule (1) and the final post.

    thanks

    - robin.


  • #319
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You make a patent assumption in the OP:

    That the parent is even forcing religion to their child, and that children automatically folllow the religion of their parents for the rest of their lives.

    As a child, on average in this country in school, you only get introduced to a very small amount of what Christianity entails. For me in primary school it was about the parables of Jesus. You knew a few key stories, but certainly not a deep basis for Christianity. Most of what I know about Christianity now, has come from my reading of the Bible, the internet (including boards.ie), Christian books, and Christian friends I have met. I made a decision to follow Jesus when I was 17.

    Rather what one is doing is introducing Christianity, and allowing the child to make an informed decision on whether or not they want to continue it.

    Although, I think this isn't about forcing, it's about offering. Hypothetically, if I had children, I would of course want them to know about Jesus, because of what it has come to mean for me, and the greater implications of salvation. I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have.

    That's selfish? Give me a break. That's the most compassionate thing I can do for anyone.

    While I'm atheist, I do plan to make sure that my child will learn about as many religions are possible.
    Choice is not choice if there are no choices, really.

    And I think that is where many religious parents go wrong. Not in teaching about their own religion, but in neglecting to teach about other religions, and in some cases going to some length to ensure the child doesn't hear about them.
    If you feel your own religion won't withstand comparison with others, I think it might be time to re-think your own stance on it.


  • #320
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Shenshen wrote: »
    And I think that is where many religious parents go wrong. Not in teaching about their own religion, but in neglecting to teach about other religions, and in some cases going to some length to ensure the child doesn't hear about them.
    If you feel your own religion won't withstand comparison with others, I think it might be time to re-think your own stance on it.

    And where some folk who don't have a relationship with Christ go wrong, is in assuming that the believer imparts ones faith to ones child is some kind of academic process.

    Education in relation to the multitude of cultures and religions is just that, an education. A good Christian 'lives' his faith, and you can't shield that from your children, nor would I ever wish to. Its not simply about talking to them about stuff.


  • #321
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    JimiTime wrote: »
    And where some folk who don't have a relationship with Christ go wrong, is in assuming that the believer imparts ones faith to ones child is some kind of academic process.

    Education in relation to the multitude of cultures and religions is just that, an education. A good Christian 'lives' his faith, and you can't shield that from your children, nor would I ever wish to. Its not simply about talking to them about stuff.

    Perfectly all right, everybody is entitled to that.
    However, neglecting to inform your child of other faiths, or actively witholding information about other ways of life and other ideas about god(s) would be neglectful and selfish.


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  • #322
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Perfectly all right, everybody is entitled to that.

    Thankfully.
    neglecting to inform your child of other faiths, or actively witholding information about other ways of life and other ideas about god(s) would be neglectful and selfish.

    Not necessarily. Some of you don't get the notion of 'motive'. 'If' a parent decided not to tell a child about something, and was motivated by the welfare of the 'schild' then that is the complete opposite of selfish. Of course, you can disagree if its best for the child or not, but you can't accuse them of selfishness.


  • #323
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    And where some folk who don't have a relationship with Christ go wrong, is in assuming that the believer imparts ones faith to ones child is some kind of academic process.

    In fairness a lot do, judging by the huge industry grown up around Bibles and Bible guides for children.

    I don't think anyone here is objecting to a parent say setting an example for their child by turning the other check when someone does something nasty to them.

    The issue gets complicated when the parent explains to the child why they did that.


  • #324
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    In fairness a lot do, judging by the huge industry grown up around Bibles and Bible guides for children.

    I don't think anyone here is objecting to a parent say setting an example for their child by turning the other check when someone does something nasty to them.

    The issue gets complicated when the parent explains to the child why they did that.

    I didn't say that education wasn't 'part' of it. It goes without saying really. Its alot more than just academical though.


  • #325
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I didn't say that education wasn't 'part' of it. It goes without saying really. Its alot more than just academical though.

    That is some what irrelevant to the point at hand though. If you didn't educate them about Christianity, but simply set an example of what you think a up standing individual acts, I'm not sure anyone would be that bothered.

    The issue not that they are exposed to a Christian simply through interaction, the issue is the direct teaching of Christian doctrine.


  • #326
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is some what irrelevant to the point at hand though. If you didn't educate them about Christianity, but simply set an example of what you think a up standing individual acts, I'm not sure anyone would be that bothered.

    Why should anyone should get 'bothered' at me explaining to my child why I just turned the other cheek? Do you realise how incredibly intolerant that sounds?

    Imagine you have a child one day. The child asks you why you don't go to Church. So you explain that it is because you don't believe in God. Should I be bothered by that? Of course not, how you raise your child is up to you. Providing you don't starve them, beat them, or teach them to do something horrendous or grossly illegal then it is none of my business.

    I have no problem with people choosing not to collect stamps. In fact I'll passionately defend their right not to collect stamps. I do get worried, however, when they attempt to stop me from collecting stamps!


  • #327
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Why should anyone should get 'bothered' at me explaining to my child why I just turned the other cheek? Do you realise how incredibly intolerant that sounds?

    Oh no! Not "intolerant" :rolleyes:

    Have you read the thread?


  • #328
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Wicknight wrote: »
    the issue is the direct teaching of Christian doctrine.
    The direct, threat-encased, teaching of christian dogma as true, and the implication that every competing idea is false, and dangerously so.

    That's the problem.


  • #329
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Oh no! Not "intolerant" :rolleyes:

    Have you read the thread?

    Yes, I've read the thread.

    However, since my reference to tolerance appears to be offensive, how about "live and let live"?

    Is that more to your liking?

    I'm struggling to find wording that won't provoke any more rolling eyes. What word would you like to use that expresses not getting bothered because a Dad says to his kid, "Well, son, since you ask, the reason why I turned the other cheek was because my Christian faith teaches me that is the right thing to do."

    Please advise me - there's a whole dictionary full of words out there for you to utilise.


  • #330
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    Yes, I've read the thread.

    However, since my reference to tolerance appears to be offensive, how about "live and let live"?

    Is that more to your liking?

    I'm struggling to find wording that won't provoke any more rolling eyes. What word would you like to use that expresses not getting bothered because a Dad says to his kid, "Well, son, since you ask, the reason why I turned the other cheek was because my Christian faith teaches me that is the right thing to do."

    Please advise me - there's a whole dictionary full of words out there for you to utilise.

    Umm, you say you have read the thread but your whole post screams the opposite, given that the rest of us have covered this ground already (twice in fact)

    Needless to say I'm reluctant to repeat myself ad nausea, particular with someone who I have my doubts about their genuine interest in discussing this topic.


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  • #331
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Umm, you say you have read the thread but your whole post screams the opposite, given that the rest of us have covered this ground already (twice in fact)

    Needless to say I'm reluctant to repeat myself ad nausea, particular with someone who I have my doubts about their genuine interest in discussing this topic.

    So you say you are bothered at a dad saying to his own child, "Well, son, since you ask, the reason why I turned the other cheek was because my Christian faith teaches me that is the right thing to do."

    But if I ask you about why you get bothered then that suggests that I have not a genuine interest in discussing the topic,and merits a bit of eye rolling?

    Ok then. I'll leave you to it so.

    Sorry for intruding.


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