5,000 attend pro-hunting rally

eilo1 · 09-04-2010 2:27pm

I agree, farming is definately an issue too in animal welfare. I think most people would agree. And I see your point but you can't say "oh I know hunting is bad but so is farming so...." Like graces said

Hi Helen thats not what im trying to say, I just mean that hunting has a really bad reputation, People actually get into fights and break laws because of it. It seems silly to me to get so worked up about the fox population being controlled in this way but not have a problem with farming, even if someone says they are a vegetarian they are probably still using some animal products,(leather, gelatine).
I would love to have a bit of land and raise my own animals for meat and dairy. How ever at the min im a student so tesco is the answer for me.
To be honest i dont feel sorry for the fox, the chase is how nature indended him to die (or live if cunning enough). The hunt is about controlling the population (as we do with rats and mice) and the economic and social benefits to the countryside.

Graces7 · 09-04-2010 9:24pm

Discodog wrote: »

You are the one who is criminalising people who voice their objection to hunting & yet you accept a "sport" that clearly breaches the 1911 Cruelty to Animals Act. The only reasons that hunts cannot be prosecuted in that Foxes were designated as vermin & therefore could be subjected to cruelty unlike a domestic dog. Yet both Foxes & domestic dogs feel pain & distress in the same way.

You fail to mention the "criminal" hunters who, according to one farmer & also a land valuer on the RTE frontline, trespass on farm land & cause damage running to thousands of euro. As you know an increasing number of farmers will not allow the hunt onto their land. Why do they do this if hunting controls foxes & is beneficial to farming ?.

In any event the only hunt that it likely to be banned is the Ward Union. They go one step further in that they breed/farm the deer so that they can be hunted. So this has nothing to do with vermin control. The animals are bred to be chased to the point of exhaustion purely for pleasure.

It is your last words that most of us are in accord with; the idea of breeding animals and birds with the sole purpose of killing by hunting to exhaustion is barbaric and totally unnecessary.

To find pleasure in doing this is a very dubious thing, surely. Blood lust. surely.

Wonder if those same people would actually work in a slaughterhouse?

Graces7 · 09-04-2010 9:31pm

eilo1 wrote: »

ah now really grace thats a lovely quote but can go either way,
Im sure everyone would like to see animals being treated fairy and as nature intended.

Yes, we would; and surely we can make that happen in whatever ways we can.

Like all the folk here who rescue abused animals; and like the struggle we are having here to try to get the pony treated better.

It is all a part of the same thing.

And stating why we do not support hunting is part of that too.

Wise man said that for evil to flourish, it only needs good men to stand by and say and do nothing.

Not that anyone could accuse me of that!

But there is almost always something we can do in some small way...And maybe that is too choosing what we buy to eat and wear.

star-pants · 09-04-2010 10:17pm

Ok folks - I really don't want to be editing posts etc - and I'd like this discussion to be able to continue, so can we not attack people/call them names or bad people if they happen to partake or support the hunting side of things please

Whispered · 09-04-2010 11:54pm

eilo1 wrote: »

I just mean that hunting has a really bad reputation, People actually get into fights and break laws because of it. It seems silly to me to get so worked up about the fox population being controlled in this way but not have a problem with farming, even if someone says they are a vegetarian they are probably still using some animal products,(leather, gelatine).

Don't some hunters break the law too though? And just because some do, does that automatically mean you are a law breaker or even a militant hunter? Lets be fair here. Both sides have been, and will continue to be, liable to have a few loose canons doing silly things for the sake of it. Groups like peta give animal welfare campaigners a bad name, just like blood thirsty hunters who care about nothing but the kill, will give hunters a worse name.

Again I agree with your ideas on farming (but vegetarians don't eat dead animal products at all, incl gelatine). And to me the issue of ethical farming is a much bigger issue than that of fox hunting. I am still going to express my opinion against the act of fox hunting if and when the opportunity arises.

I really think that it will be a never ending circle. The pro hunters will continue to cry that anti's don't understand and hunting just has a bad name. And anti hunters will continue to see it as simply being the barbaric chase and kill of an animal for nothing but entertainment.

Is there a body, which controls the hunt, the horses and dogs involved etc. Do you need any sort of license to organise a hunt.

EGAR · 10-04-2010 2:58am

I too live very rurally like ISDW and here too many farmers have banned the hunt from crossing their lands. This has nothing to do with the farmers wanting to hunt their land themselves but with the damage caused by the hunt when crossing the land and the hounds which do worry livestock simply by being present in a field with sheep.

Also, alot of the farmers I spoke to said the people in the hunt are not actually locals or farmers themselves but and I quote "stuck up townies with no respect for the land". The ordinary farmers around here shoot rabbits, pheasants and maybe a deer - but they eat what they shoot.

I have no problem with hunting if done properly, i.e. clean shot, least suffering to the animals and a fair chance to get away.

I do have big problems with foxhunting with packs and on horseback, carted stag hunting, the raising of half-tame pheasants which are then released to be hunted.

And lets not forget HOW MUCH MONEY there is involved in foxhunting. You cannot seriously tell me that the "ordinary" Paddy from the farm next door can afford a good hunting horse, the equipment that goes with it and the time to go to meets every week etc.

Most farmers around here would have neither the time nor the money

.

It's an industry such as Greyhound racing and has little to do with the *rights of the little people*, IMHO.

Oh and let's not forget the fallout for rescue from the hounds. I have taken in countless old, decrepit, mangy and stray foxhounds. In some cases they were chained in pairs and near death when found. No one ever came looking for them and even the vets shrugged their shoulders: "Ah well, the hunt was 'round."

I've also taken in quite a few ex-hunting horses, also run down and worn out.

However, I run a rescue, I am all for animal welfare but I do NOT want to be put into the same category as animal rights activists.

I am neither a tree hugger nor am I a hunt saboteur. But I am entitled to my opinion and to the right to voice the same without being shouted at or down.

eilo1 · 12-04-2010 6:41pm

Hi Egar,
With regards to hunting being too expensive for the ordinary person, thats just not true. I know post men, house wives, students, farmers, amateur jockeys, grooms, horse riding instructors even people out of work that go hunting.
You do not need to spend money on a good hunting horse, some people use ex racehorses (normally bought for a couple of hundred or given for free) some of the best horses are just old cobs that love to jump. I know people that hunt other people horses for them as it is a great way to educate a horse. It is after all what made the Irish horse so good.

Helen I wasnt saying either side is more aggressive, just that I think its crazy to get so worked up about hunting that you would hurt another person. (pro or anti)

My point of view on this is simple, Foxes need to be controlled, Hunting is a god way to do it because the foxes have a fair chance at survival meaning that the fittest survive. There is a lot of benefit to the local economy from the hunt (as in the keep of the horses, farriers and vets).
There are only 2 alternatives to hunting foxes one is not to kill them and the other is just to shoot them. If you are just shooting them you run the risk of not killing them and there being a slow death, plus you dont know if the animal is its prime.

EGAR · 12-04-2010 10:25pm

Sigh, OTTB needs to be re-trained, horses also cost money for farrier, vet, tackle, transport, dentist, feed etc.

Old cobs, is that right? Really good idea to ride old cobs at breakneck speed and very good for their legs and joints...

eilo1 · 12-04-2010 10:44pm

tackle ?
hmm not too many horses being ridden with fishing rods but ya never know lol

the term old cob refers to the common old fashioned cob not 20 year old horses............................. (out of curiosity do you actually know anything about horses?)

The rest of it you dont need lots of money for, people generally help each other out, for instance I dont have a horse or a horse box, people always give me horses to ride, I have also retrained race horses, they are some of the best hunting horses I have ridden, very little expense involved.
here is a break down
7 euro feed a week
free grazing (normally in return for riding someone else's horse)
dentist 40 every 2 years
shoes 45 every 6 weeks
all that is left is the weekly sub which varies from hunt to hunt
normally about 20 for 3 -4 hours hunting
obviously not everyone does it that cheap, but you can, Hunting does not have to be very expensive and is not just a past time for the rich.

Hunting is very much a past time for everyone and not just the wealthy.

sex panther · 13-04-2010 12:45am

how many of you have actually been to or participated in a fox hunt? i hunt every week with my rescued horse and its kina annoying listening to people who have not any clue on actually what happens and no watching an episode of frontline does not give you all the information.

People get soooo angry about all of this are there not more important things in the world today? famine, war, third world debt, right now we are all on computers using minerals mined in the congo which fuels civil war, global warming!

If u say animal welfare is your thing then Fox hunting is only a small part of animal welfare it has been happening for hundreds of years, why dont we try and stop battery hens being used, stop the hundreds of race horses being slaughtered in factories because they are not 'good enough', stop animal euthanasia in some organisations (eg cork city council) i could go on.

Im not trying to take the focus off fox hunting but with specific regulations such as no digging out the foxes it could be ok, the fox is going to get shot by the farmer or will have poison given to it, they are over populated and have to be culled so which way is better? there are thousands of hounds and hunting horses in the country that will be out of work whats to be done with them? I help feed those hounds by my club fee every year who will feed them?

ok my rant is over, i just wanted to expess my opinion

Graces7 · 13-04-2010 12:51am

eilo1 wrote: »

Hi Egar,
With regards to hunting being too expensive for the ordinary person, thats just not true. I know post men, house wives, students, farmers, amateur jockeys, grooms, horse riding instructors even people out of work that go hunting.
You do not need to spend money on a good hunting horse, some people use ex racehorses (normally bought for a couple of hundred or given for free) some of the best horses are just old cobs that love to jump. I know people that hunt other people horses for them as it is a great way to educate a horse. It is after all what made the Irish horse so good.

Helen I wasnt saying either side is more aggressive, just that I think its crazy to get so worked up about hunting that you would hurt another person. (pro or anti)

My point of view on this is simple, Foxes need to be controlled, Hunting is a god way to do it because the foxes have a fair chance at survival meaning that the fittest survive. There is a lot of benefit to the local economy from the hunt (as in the keep of the horses, farriers and vets).
There are only 2 alternatives to hunting foxes one is not to kill them and the other is just to shoot them. If you are just shooting them you run the risk of not killing them and there being a slow death, plus you dont know if the animal is its prime.

We all agree that foxes need to be culled. But as some here have said, hunting is not often a fair way to do that. We read here of earths being blocked etc.

And does an old and worn fox have no rights of a fast death? There is far less risk with a good shot.

Interesting that some still believe that the Irish are good with horses.

Or that Irish horses are good.
Hard to believe reading some threads here.

Far healthier ways to enjoy riding and the countryside than to chase a fox.

If it is the company that folk enjoy, then there need to be better ways provided also.

And reading others here, there is more damage done to farms etc than the benefit that accrues thereto.

doctor evil · 13-04-2010 1:54am

EGAR wrote: »

Sigh, OTTB needs to be re-trained, horses also cost money for farrier, vet, tackle, transport, dentist, feed etc.

Old cobs, is that right? Really good idea to ride old cobs at breakneck speed and very good for their legs and joints...

Of course ex racers need to be retrained but if the rider has the skill and experience they will have no problem doing it. Livery is often cheaper out in the country than in closer to cities like Dublin. Tack if a person knows what to look for and can spot damaged tack does not need to be bought brand new. Farrier, vet, dentist etc call out fees can be cheaper when they come out for the whole yard. Transport can be shared and feed bought in bulk. Some jobs in the horse industry allows you to keep your own at the premises.

By old cobs I take it he means any kind of cob. A horse doesn't have to be pretty or look full of quality to be any good for the job.

Fox hunting does not take place at breakneck speed as this implies that the horse goes with no sense of self preservation. A horse or rider like this has no place on the hunting field or anywhere for that matter.

The pace in drag hunting tends to be faster than in foxhunting. With the latter there are plenty of breaks.

You don't take any horse out hunting. The animals has to be fit and this from a field state (aka bought in from being turned away over the summer) can take a few weeks and starts with walking.

Conformation can at times dictate more wear and tear of joints than pace/speed. The ground does have a bearing in this. Hunters tend to be hardy animals. Any one worth their salt would know when a horse has had enough or feels wrong.

Anyone can hunt. You can rent out hirelings and you pay a cap for the day, the fee for the hireling includes transport for the animal. Some hunts might have restrictions if the landowners want to keep the numbers small. Some days are for more experienced riders than others. Jackets can be hired as well or a person may be able to find one cheap on ebay. If a rider wears thermals they may get away with a polyester jacket rather than a full up 100% wool one if the weather is not too awful.

doctor evil · 13-04-2010 2:03am

EGAR wrote: »

being shouted at or down.

Can I ask you who you feel has been shouting you down? I haven't kept track of this thread for a few days so maybe some posts were pruned.

Riders should of course keep to field boundaries and allows follow the directions of the master. Any damage/mishap should be reported to the master. If any landowners feel aggrieved than as far as I know they can go to the HAI

When I go hunting (next season) I'll be going as an outsider as I live in Dublin, this does not mean I am an 'up myself townie'

Money from outsiders/tourists/ET contribute to the running of the hunt and off shoots to other rural businesses (pubs/shops/B&B)

Discodog · 13-04-2010 8:49am

eilo1 wrote: »

Hi Egar,
My point of view on this is simple, Foxes need to be controlled, Hunting is a god way to do it because the foxes have a fair chance at survival meaning that the fittest survive. There is a lot of benefit to the local economy from the hunt (as in the keep of the horses, farriers and vets).
There are only 2 alternatives to hunting foxes one is not to kill them and the other is just to shoot them. If you are just shooting them you run the risk of not killing them and there being a slow death, plus you dont know if the animal is its prime.

But the hunt lobby say, in defence of their "sport", that they kill few foxes. One minute they argue that they control foxes & then in debates they say that they rarely kill a fox. Hunting & shooting will never control foxes. Even the National Association of Regional Game Councils who represent hunters & shooters say that the fox population is about 150,000 & that 25,000 are shot or hunted.

There is a increasing urban population of foxes that are never going to be shot or hunted. When you remove foxes from one area there are plenty more ready to take over the vacated space. If you could remove all the foxes from a given area you would soon be knee deep in rats & rabbits which do more damage than the fox. Nature is pretty good at controlling populations provided.

I cannot understand why the hunts don't just admit they they like hunting rather than trying to justify it. People don't ride with the Ward hunt to control Stags - they breed the Stag & release it to hunt. I do not believe that the hunt are oblivious to suffering. They accept is as the price for their enjoyment.

stevoman · 13-04-2010 10:27am

Isnt it fair to say that the people from the RISE campaign have to stcik together. True a lor of people have gripe with hunting on horse with houds etc but if these sports are to be outlawed then you have to remember the anti hunting lobby will turn to their next mission of banning shooting etc etc.

For people who love their sport of shooting or angling this is a real scare to them and i cant blame them for being worried. I myself LOVE to go out hunting with my dog and shotgun and i basically live for it. I was reared with it and have always done it. I honestly do not see anythjing bad about spending all year to train my dog to hunt up pheasants and duck in a professional style and i will glady walk all day to get a pheasant, duck or a woodcock.

I have been branded as cruel by some uneducated people, but i love nature and its workings and i can see honestly see nothing wrong with what i do.

I think its a awful lot more natural to kill a pheasant and prepare it for dinner than eat a chicken that has been killed in a factory asfter its 8 weeks old and has never seen the light of day.

Thats my 2 cents.

star-pants · 13-04-2010 11:21am

doctor evil wrote: »

I haven't kept track of this thread for a few days so maybe some posts were pruned.

Just to point out, afaik no posts have been deleted (i.e. not approved), it's takes a little while for some posts to be approved as I have to sit down and read through them all, I've been impressed with the fact that people are genuinely trying to have a discussion.

convert · 13-04-2010 11:48am

Graces7 wrote: »

We all agree that foxes need to be culled. But as some here have said, hunting is not often a fair way to do that. We read here of earths being blocked etc.

What would you have done instead? Poisoning? Traps? Weak shots leaving the fox dying for days from gangrene? (I found a dead vixen near home a few years ago who had been shot, the shot was not fatal, and she took days to die). Worse still, she had been shot during breeding season and was nursing, so more than likely her cubs died too. Hunting doesn't take place during the summer, so this doesn't happen.

Graces7 wrote: »

And does an old and worn fox have no rights of a fast death? There is far less risk with a good shot.

Only if the shot is good. And we all know that some people who go out shooting will pull a shot every now and again. And a good shooter is more likely to still hit the animal in this case, rather than a bad shooter.

This is not an attack on shooters, btw, I'm just highlighting some of the things that can and do go wrong.

Graces7 wrote: »

Interesting that some still believe that the Irish are good with horses. Or that Irish horses are good.
Hard to believe reading some threads here.

Is that really fair to tar all Irish horse owners with the same brush just because you happen to have issue with a horse owner near you or just because you've come across a few owners in the past who haven't been the best? That's just like me saying that all shop assistants are rude and unhelpful, just because I happened to come across one who was rude and unhelpful. Or that all vets are animal haters because one suggested I put down an animal rather than treating it.

Unfortunately we have a habit of tarring all members of a certain group (not just people associated with animals, but everything - teachers, unions, bankers, economists, shop assistants, etc. etc. etc.) with the same brush just because we happen to have had one or two bad experiences with members of that group, which is exceptionally unfortunate.

Whispered · 13-04-2010 12:03pm

I would be dubious of foxhunting being outright banned. I think that if that was to happen, people would find another way to get their hunting fix. Like in greyhound racing (a big money industry which contributes to the slaughter of huge numbers of animals) it would be nice to find a middle ground. Maybe by severly limiting the number of hounds on any one hunt. An absolute ban on blocking dens, digging out foxes etc. All of the dogs and horses properly licensed and checked and accounted for (does this happen?).

Like discodog, I cannot understand why hunters try to find a justification for their sport. I can certainly see the enjoyable aspects of it. (minus the killing of course)

Again, I agree with the sentiments of farming v's hunting. But it has to be agreed, there is a difference in hunting for food and hunting for nothing but entertainment.

I think most people, while finding the death of the fox distasteful, are more bothered by the actual hunt itself. The moments (hours?) that the fox spends literally running for its life. Being "flushed" out and forced to outrun a pack of dogs. This doesn't happen with smaller hunting groups. Like a man and his dog. The animal is usually dead before it realises what's happening.

I have always said, if I was to decide to eat meat again, it would be game only. I can't get my head around how people could consider fox hunting, the same as "normal" hunting (for the want of a better word).

stevoman wrote: »

Isnt it fair to say that the people from the RISE campaign have to stcik together. True a lor of people have gripe with hunting on horse with houds etc but if these sports are to be outlawed then you have to remember the anti hunting lobby will turn to their next mission of banning shooting etc etc.

For people who love their sport of shooting or angling this is a real scare to them and i cant blame them for being worried. I myself LOVE to go out hunting with my dog and shotgun and i basically live for it. I was reared with it and have always done it. I honestly do not see anythjing bad about spending all year to train my dog to hunt up pheasants and duck in a professional style and i will glady walk all day to get a pheasant, duck or a woodcock.

I have been branded as cruel by some uneducated people, but i love nature and its workings and i can see honestly see nothing wrong with what i do.

I think its a awful lot more natural to kill a pheasant and prepare it for dinner than eat a chicken that has been killed in a factory asfter its 8 weeks old and has never seen the light of day.

Thats my 2 cents.

PaulB91 · 13-04-2010 12:06pm

my thinking on this is as follows, in a hundred years or less (personally i reckon within the next 50) horse and hound hunting of all living creatures will be banned - it's just a matter of time - unfortunately some wildlife will still be hunted, maimed and killed in the mean time

Whispered · 13-04-2010 12:11pm

convert wrote: »

Unfortunately we have a habit of tarring all members of a certain group (not just people associated with animals, but everything - teachers, unions, bankers, economists, shop assistants, etc. etc. etc.) with the same brush just because we happen to have had one or two bad experiences with members of that group, which is exceptionally unfortunate.

In fairness to graces, it was the pro hunting side which brought balaclavas and "digging up dead bodies" into the conversation. What I thought to be a very balanced conversation with no necessity for that type of talk. That is tarring every anti hunting person with that brush. Saying that because we don't agree with something we are associated with that type of thing. Has to work both ways. You cannot thank a post like that while telling others not to tar everyone with one brush. (I don't know if you yourself thanked it btw, but it did recieve a few).

Graces7 · 13-04-2010 12:46pm

convert wrote: »

What would you have done instead? Poisoning? Traps? Weak shots leaving the fox dying for days from gangrene? (I found a dead vixen near home a few years ago who had been shot, the shot was not fatal, and she took days to die). Worse still, she had been shot during breeding season and was nursing, so more than likely her cubs died too. Hunting doesn't take place during the summer, so this doesn't happen.

Only if the shot is good. And we all know that some people who go out shooting will pull a shot every now and again. And a good shooter is more likely to still hit the animal in this case, rather than a bad shooter.

This is not an attack on shooters, btw, I'm just highlighting some of the things that can and do go wrong.

Is that really fair to tar all Irish horse owners with the same brush just because you happen to have issue with a horse owner near you or just because you've come across a few owners in the past who haven't been the best? That's just like me saying that all shop assistants are rude and unhelpful, just because I happened to come across one who was rude and unhelpful. Or that all vets are animal haters because one suggested I put down an animal rather than treating it.

Unfortunately we have a habit of tarring all members of a certain group (not just people associated with animals, but everything - teachers, unions, bankers, economists, shop assistants, etc. etc. etc.) with the same brush just because we happen to have had one or two bad experiences with members of that group, which is exceptionally unfortunate.

Er... not just one horse owner by the way. Several over our years here.

And as I said, please read other threads here.

Ireland has a world wide notoriety for animal abuse, sadly.

As I have said elsewhere, there is a wonderful herd of Shetlands near Town that are beautifully kept and a delight to see.

I stop and watch every time I pass.

Owned by "blow ins"

But to see and hear this for four months now, day and night and to be abused for objecting; and this man is Irish. And to be unable to get any help to get the horse released; it is breaking my heart. And as Discodog avers, this is not an isolated case.

OF COURSE things can go wrong

( I know very ;little re gun laws here by the way; we are based in Canada and many family members are perforce excellent shots as bears and cougars can be a problem; and they also shoot for meat. But they are carefully trained to shoot and would never leave a wounded animal to die in agony.Indeed we have been known to sabotage traps and are good at that too)

All of us work in animal rescue'welfare, so please find a better line to take with me?

And I would never ever think of traps or poison; surely you know me better than that by now.

BUT the whole method of hunting is to chase to exhaustion. Period. So the animal is always in terror, running for its very life and ALWAYS torn to pieces by a pack of dogs.

At its "best" that is the method and the aim.

An inescapable fact.

And as Discodog says... see his mails.

That many of us find barbaric; and I am sorry if that is too strong a word for some. And more than that, unnecessary in this day and age.

Many will join maybe for the social event; surely there are better ways to do that too? Ending of course in the local pub etc as that seems to be an important aspect.

eilo1 · 13-04-2010 1:02pm

And does an old and worn fox have no rights of a fast death?
Sorry Grace but no they dont have a right to a fast death, infact no animal or person does. And again the point that they have the chance to survive is overlooked, I know I would choose to run than be shot.

Interesting that some still believe that the Irish are good with horses.

Or that Irish horses are good.
Hard to believe reading some threads here.

Irish horses are competeing at the highest levels in the equine world.
To suggest Irish people are poor horse people is just ignorant. Look at the top jockeys, show jumpers, event riders.

One other point actually is just that from the anti hunting side a lot of points are being made that refer to farmers opinions. But farming has some of the cruelest practices going (battery hens, intensive pig farming etc). So why pay so much head to what farmers want???

Graces7 · 13-04-2010 1:48pm

You ignore the massive amount of horse abuse then?

It does not matter? Does not exist?

What is most telling for a nation where animals are concerned is the abuse; not the success. Is how animals that are not stars are treated.

Easy to train a winner.

As for foxes etc; on that we differ simply. Because my heart is always with those who suffer. Always so. Be it animal or human.

Being chased with the intention of death is a terrifying experience. Why does it give pleasure to anyone?

That is more than enough to make it reprehensible when deliberately inflicted by as I think Oscar Wilde said " the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable."

eilo1 wrote: »

And does an old and worn fox have no rights of a fast death?
Sorry Grace but no they dont have a right to a fast death, infact no animal or person does. And again the point that they have the chance to survive is overlooked, I know I would choose to run than be shot.

Interesting that some still believe that the Irish are good with horses. Or that Irish horses are good.
Hard to believe reading some threads here.

Irish horses are competeing at the highest levels in the equine world.
To suggest Irish people are poor horse people is just ignorant. Look at the top jockeys, show jumpers, event riders.

One other point actually is just that from the anti hunting side a lot of points are being made that refer to farmers opinions. But farming has some of the cruelest practices going (battery hens, intensive pig farming etc). So why pay so much head to what farmers want???

Whispered · 13-04-2010 1:49pm

People can have an opinion on more than one animal welfare issue at a time. As I'm sure the hunters do. Farming can be cruel - hunting can be cruel. There is no reason why people can't think both. It's been alluded to loads of times on the thread. People should be more worried about farming parctises than hunting practises. How do you know they are not? The thread is about fox hunting. I'm sure if you started a thread about farming, you'd get the same people, saying similar things. Animal welfare concerns all animals. It just so happens, this time, we are talking about foxes.

The fact that farmers do not want hunts on their land was made in response to the idea that hunts do not cause damage. They disagree that the hunt causes no/little damage - the farmers do not want them on their land in some cases - due to the damage.

What measures are there in place to control, restrict and oversee the hunt?

EGAR · 13-04-2010 2:47pm

Tackle. Well, it was late when I posted and English is not my first language so you have to excuse the odd linguistic slip-up

. I meant, of course, tack. So no need to gloat over the misuse of the word, we all make mistakes, spelling or otherwise

.

(out of curiosity do you actually know anything about horses?)

Sigh, it appears you didn't read my posts on this thread properly.

7 euro feed a week

Are you feeding Pegus or what? None of mine would do on 7 Euros a week of feed!

I think its a awful lot more natural to kill a pheasant and prepare it for dinner than eat a chicken that has been killed in a factory asfter its 8 weeks old and has never seen the light of day.

Totally agree with this statement, however, we are talking about the likes of foxhunting and carted stag hunting - IMHO that is a different kettle of fish.

Again, I agree with the sentiments of farming v's hunting. But it has to be agreed, there is a difference in hunting for food and hunting for nothing but entertainment.

Yes, that is exactly my opinion which I have posted before.

The remark about "stuck up townies" was not made by myself but by farmers I have spoken to. It was blatantly clear from my post, so don't try to attribute it to me

.

No one so far has picked up on the welfare issue of the hounds which I have also posted about. Interesting

.

convert · 13-04-2010 2:59pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

In fairness to graces, it was the pro hunting side which brought balaclavas and "digging up dead bodies" into the conversation. What I thought to be a very balanced conversation with no necessity for that type of talk. That is tarring every anti hunting person with that brush. Saying that because we don't agree with something we are associated with that type of thing. Has to work both ways. You cannot thank a post like that while telling others not to tar everyone with one brush. (I don't know if you yourself thanked it btw, but it did recieve a few).

If you re-read my post again you'll see that I was not actually talking about people wearing balaclavas or

digging up dead bodies

, or referring to animal welfare groups when writing the piece of text you quoted. I was simply pointing out that not all horse owners in Ireland treat their horses badly. Unfortunately, some people don't, and it is these people who get good and responsible owners a bad reputation. All I was saying was that it is unfortunate that a small minority of irresponsible individuals - in any walk of life - give the majority of responsible individuals a bad reputation.

Graces7 · 13-04-2010 4:49pm

What amazes me is that it seems few can accept that others differ. If we present a different viewpoint; why then we are eg ignorant.

Many of us have reached the position we are in after long thought and long experience.

And have a wide awareness of every aspect of the subject.

And it is our varying experiences that will shape our views, and , most of all, our actions and lifestyle.

eg choosing whether to eat meat or not, which farming methods to support.

If you really feel that hunting is right, no one is about to stand in front of you and shout NO.

Well, I am not - and if you saw me you would be very sure of that

- and nor are many here.

But similarly we would never hunt or support hunting that involved chasing in any way.

Any more than we would support the recent cull of badgers in the way it was done.

For compassion's sake .

For me, that is what it comes down to.

convert · 13-04-2010 7:00pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Er... not just one horse owner by the way. Several over our years here.

Several out of how many thousands of horse owners in Ireland?

doctor evil · 14-04-2010 12:23am

helena.ryan wrote: »

. Maybe by severly limiting the number of hounds on any one hunt. An absolute ban on blocking dens, digging out foxes etc. All of the dogs and horses properly licensed and checked and accounted for (does this happen?).

Even if the number of hounds are limited the prey is still hunted which some folk will still find distasteful. A hound follows its nose, a fox is aware of this and is full of tactics for the hound. The same fox is not hunted for hours on end. A fox would hear the hounds coming from ages, hounds and shod horses are not quiet.

Like discodog, I cannot understand why hunters try to find a justification for their sport. I can certainly see the enjoyable aspects of it. (minus the killing of course)

When sabs make comparisons of hunters to child abusers/psychopaths than yes hunters need to explain/get the word out and justify their sport. There is a difference between antis and sabs. Riders get access over land they would not normally have and since the trail is not prelaid there is an excitement over where it may lead (within land allowed)

Again, I agree with the sentiments of farming v's hunting. But it has to be agreed, there is a difference in hunting for food and hunting for nothing but entertainment.

An animal is still killed, it is about what happens before, what happens after is irrelevant to the animal (although it is immoral to waste good meat)

I think most people, while finding the death of the fox distasteful, are more bothered by the actual hunt itself. The moments (hours?) that the fox spends literally running for its life. Being "flushed" out and forced to outrun a pack of dogs. This doesn't happen with smaller hunting groups. Like a man and his dog. The animal is usually dead before it realises what's happening.

The fox is a predator but it to is prey, it has evolved to run and use tactics against its own predators. I really doubt the same fox is hunted for hours on end. With foot packs it is often several people and several hounds. A hunter would have to be experienced and lucky for an animal not to notice that they are there at all.

I have always said, if I was to decide to eat meat again, it would be game only.

+1 stronger taste than most of what is farmed.

doctor evil · 14-04-2010 12:29am

helena.ryan wrote: »

What measures are there in place to control, restrict and oversee the hunt?

I'm pretty sure it would be the hai, although I am open to correction.

http://www.hai.ie/

As for post 79 I forgot to include:

Horses have passports which the owner must have when the horse is off the yard (bar hacking). With hounds there is the usual dog license. I know hunts keep their own stud books for hounds. I also believe that hounds are not bought/sold but do end up getting stolen.

I know there are more legislation coming in about dog breeding but nothing is going to change unless there is more funding and enforcing of existing laws (kinda off topic)

5,000 attend pro-hunting rally

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