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The Irish Famine

12357…11

Comments

  • #122
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    enno99 wrote: »
    Can you post the definition of genocide you are using

    I think this the legal terma applied correct me if im wrong

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide

    That is the definition I'm using. I've mentioned a few times that since the British government did not deliberately conspire or organise the deaths of a million Irish peasants then the Irish Famine cannot be labelled a genocide. You have to be careful not to deride the true meaning of the term. Rwanda suffered a genocide - organised thugs sought out an entire race of people and butchered them. British soldiers did not enter villages and open fire on Irish peasants. That is the key moral difference.

    Food was with-held, yes, but you have to understand that the enemy involved here is neglect, not intention to murder.


  • #123
    Torakx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    Im not bothered about labels atached as long as i know what actually happened im satisfied with any repsonse.
    So far im getting bits and pieces of what happened.
    I didnt study history at all growing up so would welcome any small quick summary of what happened with the famine.


  • #124
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Torakx wrote: »
    Im not bothered about labels atached as long as i know what actually happened im satisfied with any repsonse.
    So far im getting bits and pieces of what happened.
    I didnt study history at all growing up so would welcome any small quick summary of what happened with the famine.

    There have been some good posts about the Irish land owning system alread (The fact that we relied on the potatoe crop, that most of the countryside lived on tiny plots which relied almost entirely from this staple food) That around a third of the population lived by subsistence farming. (Or more, I'm not sure of that statistic)

    When the potatoe crop failed across the world it hit Ireland particularly badly because so much of our population relied on it.

    The British were slow to react and in my opinion acted inhumanely and most of the help came from private charity institutions (Like the Quakers) A million people died, a million emigrated, and many more emigrated in the following decades. It is the dividing line for Irish history, the source of all nationalist political philosophy, and the common heritage of our tortured national soul. In short it was the most catastrophic single incident to ever happen in Irish history. It shaped the future political careers of scores of emerging political leaders, sparked a weak rebellion (The 1848 Young Ireland Rising and Fintan Lalors 1849 Rising) Both were massively ineffective but are remembered by nationalists as a precedent for future action.


  • #125
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Here are some alternate links:

    The Irishholocaust.org
    http://www.irishholocaust.org/home

    Schiller Institute
    http://www.schillerinstitute.org/economy/nbw/pot_famine95.html

    Approved by the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education on September 10th, 1996, for inclusion in the Holocaust and Genocide Curriculum at the secondary level. Revision submitted 11/26/98.
    http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/Irish/Irish_pf.html


  • #126
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Here are some alternate links:

    The Irishholocaust.org
    http://www.irishholocaust.org/home

    Schiller Institute
    http://www.schillerinstitute.org/economy/nbw/pot_famine95.html

    Approved by the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education on September 10th, 1996, for inclusion in the Holocaust and Genocide Curriculum at the secondary level. Revision submitted 11/26/98.
    http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/Irish/Irish_pf.html

    Not a single published work. Do you understand why this is an important point?


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  • #127
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Here are some alternate links:

    The Irishholocaust.org
    http://www.irishholocaust.org/home

    Schiller Institute
    http://www.schillerinstitute.org/economy/nbw/pot_famine95.html

    Approved by the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education on September 10th, 1996, for inclusion in the Holocaust and Genocide Curriculum at the secondary level. Revision submitted 11/26/98.
    http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/Irish/Irish_pf.html

    Why do you refuse to rebut with a reasoned argument of your own? Why do you buy into extremist clap trap like the Irish holocaust website?

    If you are unable to create an argument, you have no inherent right to the opinion you hold. It makes you the worst lowest common ignorant who shouts off in pubs without having a clue what they're talking about.


  • #128
    Truthrevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Truthrevolution


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Here are some alternate links:

    The Irishholocaust.org
    http://www.irishholocaust.org/home

    Schiller Institute
    http://www.schillerinstitute.org/economy/nbw/pot_famine95.html

    Approved by the New Jersey Commission on Holocaust Education on September 10th, 1996, for inclusion in the Holocaust and Genocide Curriculum at the secondary level. Revision submitted 11/26/98.
    http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/Irish/Irish_pf.html

    Theres a lot of evidence in some of these websites to suggest that it was genocide, its just a pity that some people wont take the time to look into it.


  • #129
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Truthrevolution wrote: »
    Theres a lot of evidence in some of these websites to suggest that it was genocide, its just a pity that some people wont take the time to look into it.

    Be quiet child. I've read the Irish Holocaust website before and it reminds me of the political propaganda work of modern white nationalist groups. It doesn't even pretend to adopt a scholarly facade.

    Why are you, and others like you, unable to construct an argument? Is it because you don't have a clue what you're talking about?


  • #130
    Truthrevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Truthrevolution


    Denerick wrote: »
    Be quiet child. I've read the Irish Holocaust website before and it reminds me of the political propaganda work of modern white nationalist groups. It doesn't even pretend to adopt a scholarly facade.

    Why are you, and others like you, unable to construct an argument? Is it because you don't have a clue what you're talking about?

    I told you already that i have no interest in responding to your pathetic posts.I know what your position is so you can keep your head buried in the sand for all i care.If you continue trying to drag me down to your level i will just have to hit the ignore button.......


  • #131
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Truthrevolution wrote: »
    I told you already that i have no interest in responding to your pathetic posts.I know what your position is so you can keep your head buried in the sand for all i care.If you continue trying to drag me down to your level i will just have to hit the ignore button.......

    You have no argument, and worse, have no capacity for one. Hence it is easier for you to claim moral superiority and gloat. I pity people like you, I really do. You cut a truly wretched, pathetic figure.


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  • #132
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    By the way, I assume you are completely mental because of this little gem of a post: 'Oh right and you believe everything you are officially told by your government' Away to the asylum with you.


  • #133
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Truthrevolution wrote: »
    Theres a lot of evidence in some of these websites to suggest that it was genocide, its just a pity that some people wont take the time to look into it.

    I am uninterested in uncorroborated internet opinion pieces. I am interested in peer-reviewed journal papers, or books of the same calibre. I know you believe anything that comes from journal papers is somehow controlled by the NWO, and there is not much I can say to rebuke this, nor will I even try. But if you do not hold that such simple historical journals are part of this mid-19th century evil agenda, then you must surely see why I hold them in such regard. Simply put, the peer-review system is a bull**** filter. Got a big claim with no evidence to back it? Not published. Falsified evidence? Not published, and shunned forever. Got an interesting dataset with reasonable estimation and conclusions, authored by a respected academic who has dedicated his entire life to studying the welfare effects of the potato on European life? Published.

    I read published material for that reason, anyone can write on a website, FFS.


  • #134
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Denerick wrote: »
    You have no argument, and worse, have no capacity for one. Hence it is easier for you to claim moral superiority and gloat. I pity people like you, I really do. You cut a truly wretched, pathetic figure.

    Why are you so belligerent? Personally, I have no further interest in any interaction with you. You've made your point, it was the free-trade system; not the government who ordered the foods removal at gunpoint.

    I had an open mind from the outset on this topic, still do but your constant insults do you or your argument no favours and make you look like you've a chip on your shoulder.


  • #135
    Truthrevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Truthrevolution


    Denerick wrote: »
    By the way, I assume you are completely mental because of this little gem of a post: 'Oh right and you believe everything you are officially told by your government' Away to the asylum with you.
    You need help my friend....


  • #136
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Why are you so belligerent? Personally, I have no further interest in any interaction with you. You've made your point, it was the free-trade system; not the government who ordered the foods removal at gunpoint.

    I had an open mind from the outset on this topic, still do but your constant insults do you or your argument no favours and make you look like you've a chip on your shoulder.

    Its infuriating trying to talk to someone who refuses to bother to even construct an argument or counter argument. And then posts up extremist crap and expects people to be deferential towards this kind of behaviour. Its not tolerated by people who care about truth.


  • #137
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Truthrevolution wrote: »
    You need help my friend....

    You are a fountain of wisdom.


  • #138
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Not a single published work. Do you understand why this is an important point?

    I'd appreciate it if you didn't patronise me as you seem to do to me and others in every second post.


  • #139
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Denerick wrote: »
    Its infuriating trying to talk to someone who refuses to bother to even construct an argument or counter argument. And then posts up extremist crap and expects people to be deferential towards this kind of behaviour. Its not tolerated by people who care about truth.

    I'm still waiting to see you "talk" to anyone. All I see is arrogant preaching with narrow minded personal insults against people you have never met because they don't hold the same view as you.


  • #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Denerick, if you post once more in this thread, or in this forum for that matter, with the level of derogatory condescension that the majority of your previous posts contain, I'll ban you.

    Don't respond to this on thread, if you've a problem with or a rebuttal against my comment, PM me.


  • #141
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I'd appreciate it if you didn't patronise me as you seem to do to me and others in every second post.

    I haven't been patronising you. I genuinely get the impression that you don't understand the difference between published academic work, and some bloke writing a website. From my perspective, it seems like that you place them on equal footing. Feel free to correct me on this.

    As for you links, yes, they are alternative views. Just like creationism is an alternative view to evolution, just like stork theory is an alternative view to natalism and Flat Earth theory vs Heliocentrism. Some views are backed by mountains of evidence and strung together by logical conjecture, and some are backed by little or no evidence and dogmatic faith.


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  • #142
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Truthrevolution wrote: »
    Theres a lot of evidence in some of these websites to suggest that it was genocide, its just a pity that some people wont take the time to look into it.
    strange isent it that you believe it was a attempt of genocide against the irish,but not a attempt of genocide against the 1.7 million scotts who had to leave scotland ,god knows haw many welsh and rural english also had to move to the towns and cities because of the blight,


  • #143
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    its not the diaspora thats being discussed, its the Number of Dead


  • #144
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    I think before anyone begins to call it a genocide or attempted genocide we need to actually define what genocide actually is. Whether it was an intentional act or not. How does one define a murder/manslaughter equilivent of genocide?

    Laissez-faire was the policy of the day, as was the case in the British's dealing of the Bengal famine. The people in Ireland were living in poverty already, there were 2 million migrant workers and labourers in the population. When the blight came food prices doubled and unemployment and eviction became common place. These evictions were not introduced especially for the famine, the policies were in place already. The British just kept on acting as normal.

    If you want to prove it was genocide you need to prove that Laissez-faire a purposeful attempt to cull the Irish and Indians? Since these people were the workforce that drove the Industrial reveloution, why would the British attempt a genocide of them anyway?


  • #145
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    its not the diaspora thats being discussed, its the Number of Dead

    Wrong. When discussing the Irish Famine you discuss both the dead (1m) and the displaced (1m). The title of the thread does not say genocide, and the number of dead does not imply the same. Genocide occured in the Balkans during the 90s, at far lower numbers.


  • #146
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Liber8or wrote: »
    First of all, the Irish are not a race - we are a nation. Jews are a race.

    Jews are not a race, any more than Anglicans or Catholics. Part of the persistence of anti-semitism lies in the thoughtless assumption that there is a race of people known as Jews, instead of a collection of individuals who have certain beliefs.

    A nation is a body of people who share a real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin


  • #147
    Undergod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Jews are not a race, any more than Anglicans or Catholics. Part of the persistence of anti-semitism lies in the thoughtless assumption that there is a race of people known as Jews, instead of a collection of individuals who have certain beliefs.

    A nation is a body of people who share a real or imagined common history, culture, language or ethnic origin

    Wrong.

    There are several distinct racial groups which are identified as Jewish. To say "Judaism is no more a race than Anglicans or Catholics" is to vastly over-simplify and misrepresent the situation.

    Not every Ashkenaziis practices Judasim, but they're still Jewish.


  • #148
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I'm still waiting to see you "talk" to anyone. All I see is arrogant preaching with narrow minded personal insults against people you have never met because they don't hold the same view as you.

    Will you please construct an argument.


  • #149
    Truthrevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Truthrevolution


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    I am uninterested in uncorroborated internet opinion pieces. I am interested in peer-reviewed journal papers, or books of the same calibre. I know you believe anything that comes from journal papers is somehow controlled by the NWO, and there is not much I can say to rebuke this, nor will I even try. But if you do not hold that such simple historical journals are part of this mid-19th century evil agenda, then you must surely see why I hold them in such regard. Simply put, the peer-review system is a bull**** filter. Got a big claim with no evidence to back it? Not published. Falsified evidence? Not published, and shunned forever. Got an interesting dataset with reasonable estimation and conclusions, authored by a respected academic who has dedicated his entire life to studying the welfare effects of the potato on European life? Published.

    I read published material for that reason, anyone can write on a website, FFS.

    I see where you are coming from FD.While the peer review system filters out the bull**** do you think it could be possible that they also filter out information because its inconvenient?
    The difference between you and me is that you will only take peer reviewed information as gospel and anything outside of this domain could not be even considered.Whereas with me i know that institutions and governments tell lies so that is why i dont dismiss alternative sources of information and dont believe everything that we are officially told......


  • #150
    Truthrevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Truthrevolution


    getz wrote: »
    strange isent it that you believe it was a attempt of genocide against the irish,but not a attempt of genocide against the 1.7 million scotts who had to leave scotland ,god knows haw many welsh and rural english also had to move to the towns and cities because of the blight,

    We are not discussing what happened in Scotland or Wales, this thread is about what happened to the Irish.


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  • #151
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Truthrevolution wrote: »
    I see where you are coming from FD.While the peer review system filters out the bull**** do you think it could be possible that they also filter out information because its inconvenient?
    The difference between you and me is that you will only take peer reviewed information as gospel and anything outside of this domain could not be even considered.Whereas with me i know that institutions and governments tell lies so that is why i dont dismiss alternative sources of information and dont believe everything that we are officially told......

    Who's the official? The Irish Historical Review is not run by the government. Unless you think it is?

    I'm really not sure I agree with FD whether the learned journals are indeed 'peer reviewed' in the scientific understanding of the term. Yes, unattributed statements will be held to scrutiny in the editing process but it isn't water-tight either. Historical monographs by individual historians will have footnotes, which attribute sources, and we also know about the past form of the individual historian. What do we know about the author of 'Irish Holocaust'? That is the key difference.


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