Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

Erren Music · 07-04-2010 11:09PM #1

Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child.

How selfish is it of a parent to force their religion onto their child. Why would a parent assume that it is a good idea to mark the child out, when the child does not understand what is being forced onto it.

If we cannot remove religion from schools the children should be educated in all religions and cults and let them pick their own at 16 or 18 or none at all.

I think this horrify's the religious more than atheism, because children would be taught that all religions were equally valid.

"Every child has the right not to have their mind soiled by other people's bad ideas and or false notions. It is far more important that a child be taught how to think instead of what to think."

PDN · 07-04-2010 11:20PM

Erren Music wrote: »

I think this horrify's the religious more than atheism, because children would be taught that all religions were equally valid.

I would say it horrifies them more because it would be an unwarranted Soviet-style intrusion by the State into families, and a denial of a basic human right as recognised by the United Nations.

Permabear · 07-04-2010 11:27PM

This post has been deleted.

ColmDawson · 07-04-2010 11:33PM

I think it's wrong for parents to indoctrinate their children, but I think many parents have their children baptised out of (in their eyes) innocent adherence to an Irish tradition.

Mine told me that they had me baptised mainly so that I wouldn't feel like an outsider in school. I can see that their intentions were good, but I really don't think I'd do the same.

Hopefully the number of non-religious schools will grow so that more and more parents will be happy not to half-heartedly enter their children into religion.

iUseVi · 07-04-2010 11:37PM

I don't like it, but its unavoidable considering the way society and families are set up. Parents are always going to teach children what they consider the truth. Whether that be the truth or not. (In this case not.)

I don't see a quick and easy solution. I think schools should teach that different people believe different things, but this is never going to override the stronger influence of the parents.

Interesting question though.

iUseVi · 07-04-2010 11:38PM

ColmDawson wrote: »

Hopefully the number of non-religious schools will grow so that more and more parents will be happy not to half-heartedly enter their children into religion.

This. The only difference I can really make is to help make the entire culture more secular, but thats not a quick process.

Erren Music · 07-04-2010 11:40PM

PDN wrote: »

I would say it horrifies them more because it would be an unwarranted Soviet-style intrusion by the State into families, and a denial of a basic human right as recognised by the United Nations.

Not sure I get what you are saying here PDN. Religion would still be taught.

What about the rights of the child?

ColmDawson · 07-04-2010 11:41PM

iUseVi wrote: »

I think schools should teach that different people believe different things, but this is never going to override the stronger influence of the parents.

I'd wager that in most (or at least in a lot of) cases, the school is a more religious environment than the home.

Erren Music · 07-04-2010 11:43PM

iUseVi wrote: »

I don't see a quick and easy solution. I think schools should teach that different people believe different things, but this is never going to override the stronger influence of the parents.

I think it will.

What would happen if a child returns home from school quoting other religious doctrines and asking unanswerable questions of their parents.

CoalBucket · 07-04-2010 11:44PM

Most Irish children are baptised Catholic by default. It is my opinion that people should pick a religion or not once they feel the time is right themselves. But like every opinion you can take it or leave it

iUseVi · 07-04-2010 11:49PM

ColmDawson wrote: »

I'd wager that in most (or at least in a lot of) cases, the school is a more religious environment than the home.

Good point. All the more reason school reform is key.

philologos · 07-04-2010 11:51PM

You make a patent assumption in the OP:

That the parent is even forcing religion to their child, and that children automatically folllow the religion of their parents for the rest of their lives.

As a child, on average in this country in school, you only get introduced to a very small amount of what Christianity entails. For me in primary school it was about the parables of Jesus. You knew a few key stories, but certainly not a deep basis for Christianity. Most of what I know about Christianity now, has come from my reading of the Bible, the internet (including boards.ie), Christian books, and Christian friends I have met. I made a decision to follow Jesus when I was 17.

Rather what one is doing is introducing Christianity, and allowing the child to make an informed decision on whether or not they want to continue it.

Although, I think this isn't about forcing, it's about offering. Hypothetically, if I had children, I would of course want them to know about Jesus, because of what it has come to mean for me, and the greater implications of salvation. I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have.

That's selfish? Give me a break. That's the most compassionate thing I can do for anyone.

iUseVi · 07-04-2010 11:55PM

Jakkass wrote: »

You make a patent assumption in the OP:

That the parent is even forcing religion to their child, and that children automatically folllow the religion of their parents for the rest of their lives.

As a child, on average in this country in school, you only get introduced to a very small amount of what Christianity entails. For me in primary school it was about the parables of Jesus. You knew a few key stories, but certainly not a deep basis for Christianity.

Rather what one is doing is introducing Christianity, and allowing the child to make an informed decision on whether or not they want to continue it.

Although, I think this isn't about forcing, it's about offering. Hypothetically, if I had children, I would of course want them to know about Jesus, because of what it has come to mean for me, and the greater implications of salvation. I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have.

That's selfish? Give me a break. That's the most compassionate thing I can do for anyone.

Sounds like you had a very nice childhood. But for lots of us growing up we had religion shoved down our throats (metaphorically speaking). And there are children out there today who are not being "offered" Christianity but are being forced to practice it. Strong words I know, but I have first hand experience to back it up.

Erren Music · 07-04-2010 11:57PM

Rights granted to children under the Convention on the Rights of the Child must be implemented with regard to three key principles:

Best interests - In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.

Non-discrimination - Each child's rights are ensured without discrimination of any kind, irrespective of the child's or his or her parent's or legal guardian's race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national, ethnic or social origin, property, disability, birth or other status.

Participation - Children who are capable of forming his or her own views have the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child, the views of the child being given due weight in accordance with the age and maturity of the child

strobe · 07-04-2010 11:59PM

Meh...if a Christian raises their child to be Christian, in their mind they are helping to ensure that child is rewarded with eternal paradise....I'd hardly describe that as selfish.

kippy · 08-04-2010 12:03AM

iUseVi wrote: »

Sounds like you had a very nice childhood. But for lots of us growing up we had religion shoved down our throats (metaphorically speaking). And there are children out there today who are not being "offered" Christianity but are being forced to practice it. Strong words I know, but I have first hand experience to back it up.

Not to go off topic, but you do get a lot of stuff "shoved down your throats" that you may not have liked/agreed with at the time and which you may still have the same feelings towards.
Its a pretty interesting question...but in general I believe that my parents did what they thought was best for me and my future and in the manner in which they themselves had been brought up. While many may disagree with that concept, I dont believe my parents were selfish in any way. Right now I chose to take into account those facets of what I've learned in my past and disregard those I feel aren't relevant. That doesnt make me a good catholic but it makes me a good person in general I believe. I'll be bringing up my kids in the catholic faith, simply because I dont see anything wrong with it per se, however if after a number of years they decide for themselves its not for them, fair enough.

philologos · 08-04-2010 12:04AM

Erren Music wrote: »

Rights granted to children under the Convention on the Rights of the Child must be implemented with regard to three key principles:

Best interests - In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.

Non-discrimination - Each child's rights are ensured without discrimination of any kind, irrespective of the child's or his or her parent's or legal guardian's race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national, ethnic or social origin, property, disability, birth or other status.

Participation - Children who are capable of forming his or her own views have the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child, the views of the child being given due weight in accordance with the age and maturity of the child

Sharing Christian faith with a child doesn't violate any of these three. It is quite possible to do this allowing for participation, non-discrimination, and best interests.

It's only in an incredibly narrow atheist view where you could deem any of these to be violated in the case of sharing Christian faith.

iUseVi · 08-04-2010 12:08AM

kippy wrote: »

Not to go off topic, but you do get a lot of stuff "shoved down your throats" that you may not have liked/agreed with at the time and which you may still have the same feelings towards.
Its a pretty interesting question...but in general I believe that my parents did what they thought was best for me and my future and in the manner in which they themselves had been brought up. While many may disagree with that concept, I dont believe my parents were selfish in any way. Right now I chose to take into account those facets of what I've learned in my past and disregard those I feel aren't relevant. That doesnt make me a good catholic but it makes me a good person in general I believe. I'll be bringing up my kids in the catholic faith, simply because I dont see anything wrong with it per se, however if after a number of years they decide for themselves its not for them, fair enough.

Oh, I agree that the parents are not acting out of selfishness. Not at all. I mean my parents wanted me to be a evangelical Christian so that I would be "saved". And the bit I bolded, "but in general I believe that my parents did what they thought was best for me and my future and in the manner in which they themselves had been brought up". They certainly did that.

But my gripe is not so much with my parents, but with my schooling. Teachers forcing children who are not their children to have specific views....just doesn't cut it in my book. And you might say its my parents fault for sending me to the school. But if schooling is reformed that problem won't exist anymore...

robindch · 08-04-2010 12:10AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Hypothetically, if I had children, I would of course want them to know about Jesus, because of what it has come to mean for me, and the greater implications of salvation. I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have. That's selfish?

Yes, it is. In just the same way that it's selfish for somebody to use their position of natural authority to induce their kids to be Labour, or BNP, or Fianna Fail or Sinn Fein supporters.

This is why religion is referred to as a "selfish meme" -- it's there simply to make copies of itself, and the way in which this happens, either by pleasant or unpleasant means, is simply irrelevant.

Zombrex · 08-04-2010 12:11AM

Jakkass wrote: »

You make a patent assumption in the OP:

That the parent is even forcing religion to their child, and that children automatically folllow the religion of their parents for the rest of their lives.

As a child, on average in this country in school, you only get introduced to a very small amount of what Christianity entails. For me in primary school it was about the parables of Jesus. You knew a few key stories, but certainly not a deep basis for Christianity. Most of what I know about Christianity now, has come from my reading of the Bible, the internet (including boards.ie), Christian books, and Christian friends I have met. I made a decision to follow Jesus when I was 17.

Rather what one is doing is introducing Christianity, and allowing the child to make an informed decision on whether or not they want to continue it.

Although, I think this isn't about forcing, it's about offering. Hypothetically, if I had children, I would of course want them to know about Jesus, because of what it has come to mean for me, and the greater implications of salvation. I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have.

That's selfish? Give me a break. That's the most compassionate thing I can do for anyone.

That is some what of a pointless point as you take the initial set up of question of the OP, dismiss it and then saying "give me a break" that it is selfish

Are you saying it isn't selfish to do this, or are you saying it doesn't happen to the question is pointless?

Cause at the moment it just looks like a some what knee jerk response, its doesn't happen! its not selfish!

kippy · 08-04-2010 12:15AM

iUseVi wrote: »

But my gripe is not so much with my parents, but with my schooling. Teachers forcing children who are not their children to have specific views....just doesn't cut it in my book. And you might say its my parents fault for sending me to the school. But if schooling is reformed that problem won't exist anymore...

Thats a fair enough assertion, however you've got to remember the environment these teachers are/were teaching. Catholic schools with a catholic ethos. How else would you expect them to behave in such an environment (especially in the past)?

dvpower · 08-04-2010 12:15AM

If a Christian believes, say, that salvation is only possible via a relationship with Jesus Christ, then it would be selfish for them not to try and help build that relationship.

But, if a parent doesn't really believe this and still 'forces' a religion on their child because it is the path of least resistance, then, yes, it is selfish. I'd imagine that a large number of parents fall into this category.

iUseVi · 08-04-2010 12:17AM

kippy wrote: »

Thats a fair enough assertion, however you've got to remember the environment these teachers are/were teaching. Catholic schools with a catholic ethos. How else would you expect them to behave in such an environment (especially in the past)?

Well it wasn't catholic but a strict protestant school. So my case is a rare one in Ireland, but same principles apply.

Galvasean · 08-04-2010 12:17AM

It's every bit as irresponsible/unfair as raising your kids as Liverpool fans (well okay, maybe not THAT bad!).

philologos · 08-04-2010 12:18AM

robindch wrote: »

Yes, it is. In just the same way that it's selfish for somebody to use their position of natural authority to induce their kids to be Labour, or BNP, or Fianna Fail or Sinn Fein supporters.

This is why religion is referred to as a "selfish meme" -- it's there simply to make copies of itself, and the way in which this happens, either by pleasant or unpleasant means, is simply irrelevant.

There is a stark difference between Christianity and becoming a member of the Shinners.

Christianity provides people with a moral and ethical framework, which is the responsibility of an adult to share with their children to facilitate them in making moral decisions in this world.

Christianity provides essential guidance for a child when growing up in the knowledge of God, prayer, Scripture and other things.

Christianity on the perspective of the parents, provides a means to eternal life for their children.

All of this seems to me to be done in the best interests of the child. They can decide to reject it at a later stage, but this sharing is done entirely in earnest. Not in terms of manipulating anyone to do anything.

Referring to this as selfishness is nothing short of a joke. Yes, Wicknight, I'm saying that it isn't selfish in the slightest. It's the most compassionate thing you can do for any person living.

kippy · 08-04-2010 12:18AM

robindch wrote: »

Yes, it is. In just the same way that it's selfish for somebody to use their position of natural authority to induce their kids to be Labour, or BNP, or Fianna Fail or Sinn Fein supporters.

This is why religion is referred to as a "selfish meme" -- it's there simply to make copies of itself, and the way in which this happens, either by pleasant or unpleasant means, is simply irrelevant.

What are parents meant to do?
Surely some of their habits/likes/attitudes will naturally "rub" off on their kids anyway, whether it be intentional or not?
EG. The parents go to mass on a sunday at ten AM - they have two young kids. They HAVE to take the kids to mass (just for "handiness sake"), without any inducement the kids see the parents doing something and MAY believe that is "normal". - Sorry a very poor example but I hope you can see what I am trying to say.

EDIT - I write the above post with the realization that I know of nothing else, in that I was brought up in this manner as were the majority/all the people that I know. Most people turned out okay, so I wonder how we can "improve" on this way of bringing up kids etc. Please dont take it as an ignorant post.

Slugs · 08-04-2010 12:22AM

I wouldn't call it selfish, more grossly irresponsible. Just as it is irresponsible for a parent to allow their child to be baptised, have their first confession, have their first communion and be confirmed before they're old enough, mature enough (relatively speaking), and intelligent enough (again relatively speaking) to make their own decisions.

Not only are you forcing a child into a religion (Which you are, they didn't asked to be indoctrinated), you're also making the decision on behalf of them and believe that what you're doing is in their best interests. Bull**** as far as I'm concerned.

Erren Music · 08-04-2010 12:22AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity provides people with a moral and ethical framework, which is the responsibility of an adult to share with their children to facilitate them in making moral decisions in this world.

Christianity provides essential guidance for a child when growing up in the knowledge of God, prayer, Scripture and other things.

Christianity on the perspective of the parents, provides a means to eternal life for their children.

All of this seems to me to be done in the best interests of the child. They can decide to reject it at a later stage, but this sharing is done entirely in earnest. Not in terms of manipulating anyone to do anything.

Referring to this as selfishness is nothing short of a joke. Yes, Wicknight, I'm saying that it isn't selfish in the slightest. It's the most compassionate thing you can do for any person living.

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.

robindch · 08-04-2010 12:31AM

Erren -

Erren Music wrote: »

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.

Please try to include more content in your posts. Shouting at people will achieve nothing.

Zombrex · 08-04-2010 12:35AM

Jakkass wrote: »

It's the most compassionate thing you can do for any person living.

As is teaching your child to be fearful of Jews if the Jews are really trying to take over the world.

Your entire premise is based on the idea that Christian is the only true form of morality and ethics.

You may believe that but you should also recognize that this is simply your opinion.

Teaching your children that when you know that is only your opinion seems detrimental to how your children will grow up and view other cultures, and how they will grow up to assess religion independently using their own critical thinking.

Far better to teach them that it is simply your opinion, one of literally thousands of opinions on religion and the supernatural, and that it is important that they determine for themselves using their best critical judgement what they believe themselves.

robindch · 08-04-2010 12:36AM

Jakkass wrote: »

They can decide to reject it at a later stage, but this sharing is done entirely in earnest. Not in terms of manipulating anyone to do anything.

Seriously, Jakkass, do you really think that telling a kid that they will burn in hell when they die if they don't believe some fact does not constitute "manipulation"?

Have you forgotten what it is like to be an innocent child?

Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

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