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What is "low paid"?

13

Comments

  • #62
    Pittens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭Pittens


    More on what I just said. I live in London. The UK's wages are much cheaper than in Ireland ( but remember sterling used to be 1.6 times the Euro - which is probably the "normal" rate, certainly if you translate relative wages across the Irish sea that's what you get).

    Anyway from here ( from the BBC: titled what is a big salary - 2009) we learn:
    How about if you make the top 10%? The ASHE figures reveal that a salary of £44,881 is enough to just edge into that top bracket

    Thats where I am. Sorta. A bit higher. Am I in the top 10%?

    The BBC goes on to say
    So does that mean that if you earn £45k that you are in the country's top 10% of earners? Sadly it's not as simple as that. The ASHE is a sample of 1% of people who pay tax via PAYE. It doesn't include the self-employed - businessmen, contractors etc - who make up the ranks of the really wealthy.

    As for where I could afford to buy, or live in London, the answer is nowhere within about 20 miles of where I work, which is dead centre.

    So the people who live in London, in big old town-houses? The houses I pass buy every day. Are they rich?

    Not at all. These houses are the houses of the 19th century middle-classes. and the 21 st century middle classes. The rest of us are plebs.

    ( As an aside my (admittedly conservative) bank tells me I could get a loan of about 160K with a deposit of 50K - which would buy me piss).

    So the answer to who is poor is as i posted before.

    Most of us are poor.


  • #63
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    RoverJames wrote: »
    What about the folks in motor tax office and the parking fines place, that's hardly rocket science, are they not COs too ?

    Yeah some of the posts are not that difficult but some are. When someone is employed as a CO they may be put into either. And it would be wise for management to employ people who could be deployed to either post.


  • #64
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    i think the low wages thing is a ploy to get public on their side in sympathy,speaking of it all they,the pub sec still earn more and enjoy benefits than say like of an a cleaner or a person working in a shop.


  • #65
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Fred83 wrote: »
    the pub sec still earn more and enjoy benefits than say like of an a cleaner or a person working in a shop.
    And rightly so.


  • #66
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,226 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Gurgle wrote: »
    And rightly so.
    +1 we all know they are special :D


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  • #67
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Good grief, once the words 'professional' and 'truck driver' appear in a sentence together theres just no fcuking point. It may be stressful and hard work, it may even be difficult to get the license but it is not a trade, a profession or a 'skilled' job.

    If you have to do training, practice and sit a test to receive your qualification does this not qualify as a skill. Truck test now takes 6 hours over 4 modules and all current drivers have to do 35 hours training to get the driver CPC.
    changes wrote: »
    There are not that many jobs in the PS that could be taught to someone in 2 or 3 days. Its funny that people think all CO's do is photocopy, stamp forms or answer phone. There are CO's in very busy offices working on software systems where errors can be very costly and wreak havoc. To say they have no responsibility is just not true.

    Sure there's responsibility in every job, the big difference is There is no accountability in the PS no matter how large the fucck up. And we know who ends up paying for these costly errors and ensuing havoc
    Gurgle wrote: »
    And rightly so.

    Why don't you try and survive without cleaners and people in these shops etc (usual PS line re police, firemen etc):D


  • #68
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    theres people out there doing loads of hours and they didnt whinge,there's this system in the sector that old habbits die hard,the thought of going to work even earlier didnt sit well with the old wood in the pub sec.


  • #69
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    If you have to do training, practice and sit a test to receive your qualification does this not qualify as a skill. Truck test now takes 6 hours over 4 modules and all current drivers have to do 35 hours training to get the driver CPC.
    Unskilled - show up, get your shovel, start digging.
    Semi-skilled - A couple of weeks to a couple of months training
    Skilled - Several months training at least
    Tradesman - At least a couple of years training, generally through a formalized apprenticeship program
    Profession - At least a few years formal training with a certified qualification

    Truck driving is semi-skilled work.
    Why don't you try and survive without cleaners and people in these shops etc (usual PS line re police, firemen etc):D
    Are you seriously suggesting that unskilled workers such as cleaners and shop assistants should earn the same as gardai and firemen?


  • #70
    Mister men
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭Mister men


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Unskilled - show up, get your shovel, start digging.
    Semi-skilled - A couple of weeks to a couple of months training
    Skilled - Several months training at least
    Tradesman - At least a couple of years training, generally through a formalized apprenticeship program
    Profession - At least a few years formal training with a certified qualification

    Truck driving is semi-skilled work.


    Are you seriously suggesting that unskilled workers such as cleaners and shop assistants should earn the same as gardai and firemen?

    So an ordinary Joe driving a truck for 20 years would'nt be able to describe his job as his profession?


  • #71
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Gurgle wrote: »
    Semi-skilled - A couple of weeks to a couple of months training
    Certainly some Clerical Officers work would fall under this - would you call them semi-skilled?


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  • #72
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    ixoy wrote: »
    Certainly some Clerical Officers work would fall under this - would you call them semi-skilled?
    Are you referring to the work that the people are doing or the training / skills / experience of the people?

    Because IMO this is whats wrong with the system, the pay scales and the recruitment procedure. There should be a near minimum-wage level to the PS where unskilled workers start, and it should apply to the unskilled / semi-skilled positions.


  • #73
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Mister men wrote: »
    So an ordinary Joe driving a truck for 20 years would'nt be able to describe his job as his profession?
    No, its a job he's been in for 20 years.

    Is Joe of more value to a company after 20 years driving the truck than he was after 2 years?


  • #74
    donkey balls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    Gurgle wrote: »
    No, its a job he's been in for 20 years.

    Is Joe of more value to a company after 20 years driving the truck than he was after 2 years?

    he sure is you cannot beat experience and it shows in other professions ala arline pilot to name one


  • #75
    heyjude
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭heyjude


    As I see it there are two ways that people use to define what is "low paid". Firstly, there is the absolute way, which is by comparing what someone is paid relative to the level of social welfare or average industrial wage, then secondly there is the method which compares someones pay to that paid to other people doing the same job in other companies or in the public sector or comparing what a person is paid to what someone else of a similar age or with similar qualifications is earning elsewhere.

    In extreme cases, there is a third way of defining low pay, but it wouldn't be widely used or make too much sense and that is to compare what someone earns compared to chief executives, hospital consultants etc. I wouldn't consider this definition of low paid to make much sense, since by this definition, almost everyone is low paid(when in fact they are just lower paid), but if you represent workers at a comfortable wage levels and you still want to claim to be 'low paid' then this method may be the only avenue available.


  • #76
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    donkey balls wrote: »
    he sure is you cannot beat experience and it shows in other professions ala arline pilot to name one

    You're comparing a truck driver to an airline pilot?
    :rolleyes:

    As for the relative value of 2 vs 20 years experience driving trucks, I'll accept that as soon as you link some data supporting your claims. Statistics on accidents / on-time delivery will be fine.


  • #77
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,045 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Gurgle wrote: »
    As for the relative value of 2 vs 20 years experience driving trucks, I'll accept that as soon as you link some data supporting your claims. Statistics on accidents / on-time delivery will be fine.
    I'd also ask for the same though for clerical-officer work and how the same level of experience justifies the wages.
    Clerical officer work isn't designed to be too taxing or complex, hence being at the "bottom rung" in the civil service hierarchy so why reward multiple years of experience (using the same logic as driving a truck)? And yes I do know that there's more than just rubber stamping involved in some roles.


  • #78
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    ixoy wrote: »
    I'd also ask for the same though for clerical-officer work and how the same level of experience justifies the wages.
    Clerical officer work isn't designed to be too taxing or complex, hence being at the "bottom rung" in the civil service hierarchy so why reward multiple years of experience (using the same logic as driving a truck)? And yes I do know that there's more than just rubber stamping involved in some roles.
    Yes, exactly.

    Pay grades should be based on the training and knowledge required to do the job. Progression from one grade to another should always include taking on more / other duties, ones requiring more knowledge and experience.

    Doing the same job year on year should mean pay increases matched to inflation only. Moving up the grades should be based on performance more than any other factor, you have demonstrated that you are able for more than you are doing in your current position and you're ready for a role with more responsibility.


  • #79
    donkey balls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    Gurgle wrote: »
    You're comparing a truck driver to an airline pilot?
    :rolleyes:

    hours man its all down to the hours take a trip over to the aviation section and ask a few of the guys there including myself,then again what would i know im only working in the industry for eight years dealing with ATC, pilots, airport authority etc and just happen to be a pilot:D


  • #80
    NUIG_FiannaFail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭NUIG_FiannaFail


    anything below minimum wage is low paid. Although I believe our minimum wage is far too high to be competitive and we should lower it to €6


  • #81
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    NUIG_FiannaFail wrote: »
    anything below minimum wage is low paid. Although I believe our minimum wage is far too high to be competitive and we should lower it to €6
    That illegal. not saying it doesn't happen but you are implying that someone earning minimum wage is not lower paid


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  • #82
    NUIG_FiannaFail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭NUIG_FiannaFail


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    That illegal. not saying it doesn't happen but you are implying that someone earning minimum wage is not lower paid

    Someone on €8.65 an hour is earning a kings ransom compared with those in China or India


  • #83
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,201 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    That illegal. not saying it doesn't happen but you are implying that someone earning minimum wage is not lower paid

    There are exemptions like for people under 18 and people who are being trained.
    NUIG_FiannaFail wrote: »
    Someone on €8.65 an hour is earning a kings ransom compared with those in China or India

    They're not living in China or India though. And China and India aren't even in the Eurozone so it doesn't make that much sense to compare.


  • #84
    NUIG_FiannaFail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭NUIG_FiannaFail


    Stark wrote: »
    There are exemptions like for people under 18 and people who are being trained.



    They're not living in China or India though. And China and India aren't even in the Eurozone so it doesn't make that much sense to compare.

    We live in a global economy now and these are the people we are competing with for multinational investment


  • #85
    Caveat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭Caveat


    Minimum wage: €8.65 ph. Based on a 39h week, translates as roughly €17,500 pa.

    33% more than this is just under €23,300 ish.

    I would agree that below this could be regarded as 'low paid' but it depends. E.g it's low paid for a sales person but not necessarily for a road sweeper.

    The problem with this 'low paid' concept is that most of the time it simply means "I want more money". Doesn't mean you deserve it. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. Just because you have a big mortgage, 2 new cars and 3 kids doesn't mean you should automatically be better paid - unfortunately a lot of people seem to think like this.


  • #86
    NUIG_FiannaFail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭NUIG_FiannaFail


    Caveat wrote: »
    Minimum wage: €8.65 ph. Based on a 39h week, translates as roughly €17,500 pa.

    33% more than this is just under €23,300 ish.

    I would agree that below this could be regarded as 'low paid' but it depends. E.g it's low paid for a sales person but not necessarily for a road sweeper.

    The problem with this 'low paid' concept is that most of the time it simply means "I want more money". Doesn't mean you deserve it. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. Just because you have a big mortgage, 2 new cars and 3 kids doesn't mean you should automatically be better paid - unfortunately a lot of people seem to think like this.

    I have more respect for someone sweeping the road than some spotty kid in his father's suit coming to my door trying to sell me crap I don't want. At least the sweeper is doing a necessary job.


  • #87
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    donkey balls wrote: »
    hours man its all down to the hours take a trip over to the aviation section and ask a few of the guys there including myself,then again what would i know im only working in the industry for eight years dealing with ATC, pilots, airport authority etc and just happen to be a pilot:D
    So you qualified in the space of a few weeks through a fas course, and as soon as you got the license you phoned Ryanair and had the keys to an Airbus the following monday morning?


  • #88
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,201 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    NUIG_FiannaFail wrote: »
    We live in a global economy now and these are the people we are competing with for multinational investment

    Many of those on minimum wage are working in the services sector. They're not competing for multinational investment. While this isn't the case for all jobs, we're a long way off from giving people reasonable quality of life on a Chinese or Indian minimum wage. I'd say by the time we are, India's cost will have risen to match anyway. I'd be more focused on competing with other developed western European countries.


  • #89
    NUIG_FiannaFail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 161 ✭✭NUIG_FiannaFail


    Stark wrote: »
    Many of those on minimum wage are working in the services sector. They're not competing for multinational investment.

    Yes but who's going to work on the assembly lines if they can get a job in McDonalds paying twice as much?

    We need to cut welfare to British rates of about €70 per week too or else people will just stay at home and mooch


  • #90
    Amalgam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭Amalgam


    I know two people who have never been troublesome at work, being 'played off' by the employer, against WPP (Work Placement Programme) part-timers.

    It seems some companies are using the WPP scheme as a way of shoehorning in lower payed staff.


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  • #91
    Caveat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 294 ✭✭Caveat


    NUIG_FiannaFail wrote: »
    I have more respect for someone sweeping the road than some spotty kid in his father's suit coming to my door trying to sell me crap I don't want. At least the sweeper is doing a necessary job.

    It was just an example. What you're saying isn't the point anyway.

    Salespeople are on average paid more than the figure I mentioned, therefore it's a low wage for a salesperson. It's also a low wage for a traffic warden and you mightn't like them either.

    Change roadsweeper to shop assistant if you like.


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