Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

mrdtv2010 · 09-03-2010 03:46PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes it would appear that I must wait until 2012 for Divis to switch. Pity, but Freesat will probably have all the channels by then, so I probably will not need it by then. What do you think the chances of Divis will be then?

Yes, the new mast will start going up later in the spring. Divis will probably give a better DTT signal along the East Coast than analogue because high power DTT will be unfazed by the Mournes. The PSB channels will be clear of CCI ex Three Rock although in areas where you can get Three Rock analogue the COM muxes will be problematic. Kilkeel will be OK for a Freeview lite solution but a 100kW Divis DTT station will be receivable easily on higher ground in South Dublin.

As to Freesat 4HD and 5HD won't be on it in the next few years as there is no capacity on Astra2D and the next restricted footprint satellite at 28.2 won't be available till 2012/2013. Arfon may well be a cheap and cheerful DTT solution in and around Dublin for the next few years, including HDTV.

Sponge Bob · 09-03-2010 04:57PM

A little birdie told me that Eamon Ryan has requested 'full co operation' in ensuring the success of the BBC NI rollout down south and including measures to mask off any possible interference coming from Wales and Welsh Television within the area covered by the MoU.

This may not affect Wicklow and Wexford unless the Beeb is assigned a specific mux that is co channel with a Presili mux ...for example.

It is likely to have an effect north of Dublin. I take it to mean that RTENL/Comreg are going to make specifc requests of their UK counterparts on overspill from Wales up to and including masking to the west and north west.

As Liz McManus is good at asking questions I suggest that she be asked by a constituent to request the following information be disclosed:

1. All communications between DCENR and Comreg on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

2. 1. All communications between DCENR and RTE on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

3. All communications between RTE and Comreg on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

4. All communications between Ofcom and Comreg on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

Might poke something out of the woodwork that might

mrdtv2010 · 09-03-2010 05:11PM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A little birdie told me that Eamon Ryan has requested 'full co operation' in ensuring the success of the BBC NI rollout down south and including measures to mask off any possible interference coming from Wales and Welsh Television within the area covered by the MoU.

This may not affect Wicklow and Wexford unless the Beeb is assigned a specific mux that is co channel with a Presili mux ...for example.

It is likely to have an effect north of Dublin. I take it to mean that RTENL/Comreg are going to make specifc requests of their UK counterparts on overspill from Wales up to and including masking to the west and north west.

As Liz McManus is good at asking questions I suggest that she be asked by a constituent to request the following information be disclosed:

1. All communications between DCENR and Comreg on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

2. 1. All communications between DCENR and RTE on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

3. All communications between RTE and Comreg on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

4. All communications between Ofcom and Comreg on the issue of Welsh Overspill since January 01 2010

Might poke something out of the woodwork that might

Yes a FOI request would be very interesting. And it would show how poor Ryan & Co are, as well as BCI, RTE, and Comreg.

But its pointless for several reasons:

a) Freesat is widely available so there is a bomb-proof FTA alternative throughout Ireland and that will not change. Ryan has not factored in the substitutable alternative. The rest of Ireland has and is installing the dishes!

b) Sky distributes all of these services for a fee.

c) The UUP and DUP may soon ask for all RTE services to be jammed north of the border at the behest of UTV.

d) Ofcom & Co will NEVER agree to interference with PSB muxes in the UK. Preseli PSB is on 43, 46 and 50 cochannel with Cairn Hill. Arfon uses frequencies not used in Ireland nearby, but used at Cambret Hill so the Scottish Government would say no. BP is cochannel with Divis analogue so it won't happen. Use of the Preseli PSB channels north of Dublin would interfere with BOTH Cairn Hill and Black Hill: not permitted under the GE-O6 arrangements.

e) Ryan demonstrates he is completely clueless: Who is going to pay for BBC/ITV/Four/Five when you can get it for free via satellite?

This shows that we are in the glug, glug, glug moment with OneVision....

Digifriendly · 10-03-2010 02:00PM

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

c) The UUP and DUP may soon ask for all RTE services to be jammed north of the border at the behest of UTV.

Interesting point but since RTE is as popular in Unionist areas as Nationalist here in NI (if RTE aerials are anything to go by) I don't think this would be a vote winner to be honest. Having said that Mike Nesbitt (UTV presenter) is standing for Westminster at May election for UUP so you may be right!

mrdtv2010 · 10-03-2010 02:29PM

Digifriendly wrote: »

Interesting point but since RTE is as popular in Unionist areas as Nationalist here in NI (if RTE aerials are anything to go by) I don't think this would be a vote winner to be honest. Having said that Mike Nesbitt (UTV presenter) is standing for Westminster at May election for UUP so you may be right!

Agreed. But it would be a straightforward commercial move by UTV: ask for north nulls to be fitted on all Border RTENL transmitters AND for the ads to be stripped out by NTL on the NI cable networks. This is a likely stance if they don't secure carriage on the Irish DTT platform should that materialise. Another way to do it would be to have T2 receivers spiked so that could not receive T1 MPEG4, because its clear the T2 price war has started in the UK with the £99 Bush box, because by 2012 I doubt if people will want to buy T1 boxes anymore.

I can't see anything happening with the Welsh overspill as those frequencies have been coordinated and UK coverage patterns depend on the current HRP beams. So Ryan can whistle Dixie...

10-03-2010 02:50PM

North Korea are experts on that sort of thing.
Perhaps they could pop this chap an email ?

mrdtv2010 · 10-03-2010 04:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

North Korea are experts on that sort of thing.
Perhaps they could pop this chap an email ?

He continues to exist solely as a 3D hologram. LOL.

10-03-2010 05:33PM

Here are the twins by the way.

The mast is roughly 60ft off the ground and is 24 years old.

The twins pointed out over the sea [clear view] to presely,grid pointed at Mt Leinster and a VHF also at mt leinster.

Beautiful sunny day today! yet again

mrdtv2010 · 10-03-2010 06:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here are the twins by the way.

The mast is roughly 60ft off the ground and is 24 years old.

The twins pointed out over the sea [clear view] to presely,grid pointed at Mt Leinster and a VHF also at mt leinster.

Beautiful sunny day today! yet again

Impressive monitoring station: I see they are well stayed too!

Digifriendly · 10-03-2010 06:15PM

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Agreed. But it would be a straightforward commercial move by UTV: ask for north nulls to be fitted on all Border RTENL transmitters AND for the ads to be stripped out by NTL on the NI cable networks. This is a likely stance if they don't secure carriage on the Irish DTT platform should that materialise. Another way to do it would be to have T2 receivers spiked so that could not receive T1 MPEG4, because its clear the T2 price war has started in the UK with the £99 Bush box, because by 2012 I doubt if people will want to buy T1 boxes anymore.

Very cogently put and entirely possible to do in my opinion but surely this would create a furore here in NI by those like myself (and tens of thousands more) who watch RTE (and enjoy it as well) via an aerial!

marclt · 10-03-2010 06:21PM

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Impressive monitoring station: I see they are well stayed too!

Let's hope they aren't on top of a bungalow! I've seen that before now, and wonder how the chimney stays up!

I have a similar size VHF for Kippure over here.. helped with a masthead of course.

Good pic there Black!

mrdtv2010 · 10-03-2010 06:39PM

Digifriendly wrote: »

Very cogently put and entirely possible to do in my opinion but surely this would create a furore here in NI by those like myself (and tens of thousands more) who watch RTE (and enjoy it as well) via an aerial!

It might but that's business. I think Ryan's initiatives are going nowhere fast (cross-border DTT platforms, commercial Irish DTT etc). We will shortly reach an economic reckoning where realpolitik will override rhetoric.

Then:

a) Overspill will continue
b) There won't be any All-Ireland DTT
c) The status quo will be maintained with pay-tv providers.
d) Irish FTA DTT may or may not be launched
e) There will be more talk and yet more inaction- its par for the course with Irish digital tv policy
f) The issue with standards may be reopened. The £99 T2 box a mere month after early equipment availability and before the full Freeview marketing campaign, combined with £540 Sony Bravia 32 inch LCD T2 TVs is a gamechanger. Panasonic took out virtually a full page in today's UK Times advertising a 42 inch Freeview HD/Freesat HD plasma for £1000 with the strapline: Free HD anywhere in the UK. I think we can see things are going to move quite quickly.

Sam Russell · 10-03-2010 07:35PM

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

It might but that's business. I think Ryan's initiatives are going nowhere fast (cross-border DTT platforms, commercial Irish DTT etc). We will shortly reach an economic reckoning where realpolitik will override rhetoric.

Then:

a) Overspill will continue
b) There won't be any All-Ireland DTT
c) The status quo will be maintained with pay-tv providers.
d) Irish FTA DTT may or may not be launched
e) There will be more talk and yet more inaction- its par for the course with Irish digital tv policy
f) The issue with standards may be reopened. The £99 T2 box a mere month after early equipment availability and before the full Freeview marketing campaign, combined with £540 Sony Bravia 32 inch LCD T2 TVs is a gamechanger. Panasonic took out virtually a full page in today's UK Times advertising a 42 inch Freeview HD/Freesat HD plasma for £1000 with the strapline: Free HD anywhere in the UK. I think we can see things are going to move quite quickly.

That's all very well, but before Christmas we were to have a decision 'within weeks', that's three months now and counting. The absence of any real information is leading to very wild speculation. The Irish standard has been set and will not change before ASO which has been set as 2012, but whether that is January or December, we do not know. The mucking about with the MoU is a case of utter stupidity on behalf of the Dept. and of the commercial interests. The Dept should be looking for the removal of all nulls to increase the overspill so it reduces the requirement for infill repeaters. RTE is going north, and BBC is coming south - that is agreed. Who pays has been muddied by the antics of the politicians and civil servants. It is in nobodies interest for BBC to be a PTV service in the south. If it FTV, it is FTV for everybody. If it is being brought south 'for cultural' reasons, why charge for it. Only culture for the rich?

Let us have a decision on Onevision, and let RTE launch DTT, with a short time scale to ASO. That way, everyone gets ready now, most people will leave it to the last minute anyway, so nothing is gained.

Rant over.

mrdtv2010 · 10-03-2010 08:12PM

http://www.arqiva.com/corporate/press/archive/2010/2010-3-10%20-%20Blaenplwyf%20transmitter%20group%20(Wales)%20-%20Arqiva%20completes%20Digital%20Switch%20Over.pdf

This is the official end of analogue TV in West Wales and the first DVB-T2 group of transmitters in Wales. Apart from in Bray, Co Wicklow, who can receive Blaen-Plwyf? The end of an overspill era lasting nearly fifty years.

mrdtv2010 · 10-03-2010 08:37PM

Reports from NW Wales & the Lleyn peninsula indicate that B-P reception is now superb. It was very poor before DSO there. This confirms, as expected, that the full 40kW beam fires to the NW. Its probably why Sam Russell was able to receive it in Bray. The full beam also fires to the SW. There is now very considerable picture perfect overlap with Preseli.

It indicates that BP may be available north & south of the Arklow area null in higher SE Ireland locations, that Arfon provides a very usable three mux DTT service and that Preseli remains a firm favourite in Wexford. Will be interesting to see how this reception pattern emerges in the all-digital overspill era. Literally a digital cliff experience facing Wales: perfect pictures or nothing!

Verso · 12-03-2010 04:21PM

As stated in previous threads I receive Preseli through a 48 element wideband aerial. This aerial brings in the transmissions between 40% and 80% quality depending on prevailing conditions and averaging at about 60%.

I now want to change this aerial and am thinking about purchasing a Unix 52 (group

.

I would appreciate any comments on the suitability of this aerial.

12-03-2010 05:11PM

its good.
A decent group B like that should peak presely for you.
Try to get a meter to peak the signal.
If your aerial was done in analogue,it may be slightly off the true peak.

Verso · 12-03-2010 08:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

its good.
A decent group B like that should peak presely for you.
Try to get a meter to peak the signal.
If your aerial was done in analogue,it may be slightly off the true peak.

Thanks Black Briar for your comments. I can get at my aerial fairly easily and have pointed my wideband aerial as best I can without a meter, but it could be a bit off beam.

I have been satisfied with the Preseli reception to date but I believe I could do better with a Group B aerial.

atellyer · 13-03-2010 07:07PM

Hi, a newbie question...I live on the south side of Howth with good views out to sea. (On a very clear day we can actually see the welsh mountains) Should I be able to pick up any of the Welsh transmitters? If so, what kind of aerial do I need?
Thanks

gtg60 · 13-03-2010 07:37PM

atellyer wrote: »

Hi, a newbie question...I live on the south side of Howth with good views out to sea. (On a very clear day we can actually see the welsh mountains) Should I be able to pick up any of the Welsh transmitters? If so, what kind of aerial do I need?
Thanks

Best thing to do first is a 'Site Survey' and see what the neighbours are using or have used in the past, look to see if they are all pointing in the same direction and whether their orientation is the same. If you know your neighbours well pop in and ask them, there is no substitute to local knowledge, anybody who was getting reasonable analogue 'should' get perfect digital.

lucernarian · 13-03-2010 10:10PM

atellyer wrote: »

Hi, a newbie question...I live on the south side of Howth with good views out to sea. (On a very clear day we can actually see the welsh mountains) Should I be able to pick up any of the Welsh transmitters? If so, what kind of aerial do I need?
Thanks

Let us know how you get on! Your info can help a lot of people in your area and possibly along much of the coast to see if they could pick up those channels for free. Every little helps;)

13-03-2010 10:54PM

atellyer wrote: »

Hi, a newbie question...I live on the south side of Howth with good views out to sea. (On a very clear day we can actually see the welsh mountains) Should I be able to pick up any of the Welsh transmitters? If so, what kind of aerial do I need?
Thanks

First point by Gtg60 I think doesn't really apply in Dublin as traditionally,aerials in Dublin have pointed to NI,irrespective of whether Wales was possible.
Therefore , you won't see any pointing to Wales most likely.
I can remember HTV Wales on cable in Dublin ,received from Terrenure when UTV was on strike in the late 80's.

I'd say Arfon or Blaenplwyf are possible.
If Arfon was receivable at the Montrose Hotel albeit with a high quad aerial set up,I should imagine it's also possible on the south side of Howth.

If you have a bit of height on that side of howth,I'd definitely be trying a group A with a masthead amp for blaenplwyf.

It's better that you get someone who knows what they are doing [an installer],with a digital meter to test it for you.

lucernarian · 13-03-2010 11:16PM

I've seen a large but otherwise normal yagi aerial on a roof as far inland as Rathmines pointed to Arfon, so Welsh TV in Dublin isn't a secret either. Sure there's no harm in at least looking at the local roofs to see if there are any large aerials present?

13-03-2010 11:32PM

The only arfon array I've ever seen in Dublin North of carrickmines has been that now defunct one at montrose.
I'd say they are as rare as hens teeth on houses.
Quite a few pubs got them in around the time that McGuiggan was fighting world titles in the 80's also and BBC wales was showing the fights but RTE and BBCNI weren't.
Some of them might still be around.

aerial man · 14-03-2010 11:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here are the twins by the way.

The mast is roughly 60ft off the ground and is 24 years old.

The twins pointed out over the sea [clear view] to presely,grid pointed at Mt Leinster and a VHF also at mt leinster.

Beautiful sunny day today! yet again

She's a fair ol' job

couldn't of done better myself...

BowWow · 14-03-2010 11:51AM

atellyer wrote: »

Hi, a newbie question...I live on the south side of Howth with good views out to sea. (On a very clear day we can actually see the welsh mountains) Should I be able to pick up any of the Welsh transmitters? If so, what kind of aerial do I need?
Thanks

atellyer, I'm in Sutton and have had a good look at aerials in the Howth/Sutton area recently. Nearly all of them point North. I have seen a couple around Red Rock that point out to sea, but the condition of them would suggest they are no longer used by the householders. The area has mostly gone over to Sky. Analogue signal from NI, in houses I have been in, is good - so we shoud get Freeview in 2012.
I can remember as a child in the 60's we had HTV on an aerial in Marino - my Dad had had the aerial turned as the Welsh signal was stronger than UTV.
There was a post on the Forum a week or two ago from somebody in Finglas who was picking up Welsh DTT - but I think that was down to the weather.

Antenna · 14-03-2010 12:45PM

BowWow wrote: »

I can remember as a child in the 60's we had HTV on an aerial in Marino - my Dad had had the aerial turned as the Welsh signal was stronger than UTV.

That would have been with the long defunct UK 4O5 line TV system which used VHF (not UHF), and had more coverage into Eire

. It would not be an indication that UK freeview would work there now!

mrdtv2010 · 15-03-2010 08:54PM

Antenna wrote: »

That would have been with the long defunct UK 4O5 line TV system which used VHF (not UHF), and had more coverage into Eire . It would not be an indication that UK freeview would work there now!

VHF Channel 10 ex Arfon, despite a figure of eight N-S beam and only 10kW radiated westward. Memories...

Howth sticks out into the sea so.... The south side has the following advantages:

a) It faces Wales and as posted the Welsh coast can be seen on a clear day. Clear L-O-S.

b) There will be limited CCI from Divis due to natural shielding to B-P.

c) Possibilities include Arfon, Llanddona (as its NW of the western shielding), B-P (outside the null and has been received in Bray) and a real long shot, Moel-y-Parc (BUT very high HAAT).

Worth a try. Any Dxer with an antenna on a rotor could work out the answers in fifteen minutes!

atellyer · 15-03-2010 09:13PM

Thanks for all the responses. Sounds like job for this weekend! I'll keep you in touch on how I get on.:)

Sam Russell · 15-03-2010 10:03PM

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

VHF Channel 10 ex Arfon, despite a figure of eight N-S beam and only 10kW radiated westward. Memories...

Howth sticks out into the sea so.... The south side has the following advantages:

a) It faces Wales and as posted the Welsh coast can be seen on a clear day. Clear L-O-S.

b) There will be limited CCI from Divis due to natural shielding to B-P.

c) Possibilities include Arfon, Llanddona (as its NW of the western shielding), B-P (outside the null and has been received in Bray) and a real long shot, Moel-y-Parc (BUT very high HAAT).

Worth a try. Any Dxer with an antenna on a rotor could work out the answers in fifteen minutes!

You need a wide band aerial for all of them.

BP is group A, Horizontal. Arfon is B, vertical. Llanddona is E, Horizontal.

Best results would need a high gain mast amplifier of good quality, along with a high grade aerial equipped with a balun. You need every dB of signal you can get. A wide band might be good enough, but it would need to be changed polarity for Arfon. Arfon is only a Freeview Lite Tx.

Best of luck.

Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

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