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Eastern europe, give us your poor.

13567…12

Comments

  • #62
    deecom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 422 ✭✭deecom


    Iolar wrote: »
    Um shouldnt you include Central Europe,as Hungary isnt East European:rolleyes:

    Nor is Slovenia.


  • #63
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    Readers should familiarise themselves with our national debt clock.

    http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php


    People need to understand that social programs must be paid for. Now the demands have grown so large that the taxpayer will have to support people whom have never contributed.


  • #64
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Readers should familiarise themselves with our national debt clock.

    http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php


    People need to understand that social programs must be paid for. Now the demands have grown so large that the taxpayer will have to support people whom have never contributed.

    Back up.


  • #65
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Can that be applied to everyone that sets out to rob things not created by them?

    Some people dont seem to believe in personal responsibilities.


  • #66
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,431 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Readers should familiarise themselves with our national debt clock.

    http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php
    .
    I wouldn't worry about that. It will probably go the way of the Millennium clock in the Liffey.


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  • #67
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    walshb wrote: »
    Hey, being unemployed and on benefits here in Ireland is better to these people than even working and earning in their own country. Being Irish and on benefits it may not be all that nice, but remember, these people are coming from countries that are not at all close to being as generous with their hand outs. You cannot blame them flocking here.

    Way to miss the point.

    Why in f**ks name would they all decide to "flock to" Ireland when they can choose from at least a a dozen other countries in Western Europe ?

    Is Ireland really such a bloody fabulous place ?


  • #68
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,431 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Is Ireland really such a bloody fabulous place ?

    It must be, it can't be for the weather, can it?


  • #69
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Back up.

    Can you please read the article before you comment?

    But from April 2011, immigrants from Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and the Czech Republic - where income levels are 40% of the European average - will be allowed to claim Jobseekers' Allowance and other benefits after just three months.

    This is provided they can prove that they have been actively seeking work, undergone training or attended job interviews.


    Thanks a million.


  • #70
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    walshb wrote: »
    I wouldn't worry about that. It will probably go the way of the Millennium clock in the Liffey.

    As will the country.


  • #71
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    Shouldn´t we postpone this thread till 2011 and wait to see if the theoretical immigrant hordes do actually arrive here en masse before having this discussion.
    It all seems unlikely to me, however.


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  • #72
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,355 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Time to make unemployment benefit less attractive financially then.


  • #73
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    # European citizens have the right to enter, reside and remain in the territory of any other Member State for a period of up to three months simply by presenting a valid passport or national identity card: no other formality is required. If they intend to remain for a period exceeding three months, a residence permit must be obtained. The conditions for granting a residence permit depend on the status of the citizen (employed or self-employed person, student, retired or inactive person).

    # Any EU citizen can take up an economic activity in another Member State either as an employed or self-employed person. In this case, he/she will be issued a residence permit by simply presenting an identity document (passport or ID) and proof of employment or self-employment.

    # If a citizen wants to reside in another Member State without exercising any activity or to study, he/she can do so provided he/she can prove (and in the case of students, declare) that he/she has sufficient financial resources not to become a burden for the host Member State's social assistance system and that he/she is covered by a sickness insurance policy. He/she must also prove that he/she has sufficient financial resources and sickness insurance for each member of his/her family who is entitled to reside with him/her.

    http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/citizenship/movement/fsj_citizenship_movement_en.htm

    Might be worth a read. Correct me if I'm wrong, but people cannot just come here and immediately receive aid AFAIK.


  • #74
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Way to miss the point.

    Why in f**ks name would they all decide to "flock to" Ireland when they can choose from at least a a dozen other countries in Western Europe ?

    Is Ireland really such a bloody fabulous place ?


    Hi Mike,

    Well theres a little thing called unemployment. Its hit western europe quite hard. Theres more people looking for work than jobs available. Its quite the conundrum. Now, western european states have a system in place for the unemployed. Its called social welfare. In Ireland, its rather high. Higher than the accession states average wage. Some of the unemployed accession states citizens may decide to venture to Ireland and try to find employment. They will be well aware that if they have no joy in the job market, that after three months, they can avail of the liberal and lavish Irish social welfare system.


  • #75
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    dlofnep wrote: »
    http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/citizenship/movement/fsj_citizenship_movement_en.htm

    Might be worth a read. Correct me if I'm wrong, but people cannot just come here and immediately receive aid AFAIK.

    Not yet, but new legislation has been passed. They can avail of social welfare after three months if they can prove that they have been actively seeking work, undergone training or attended job interviews.




  • #76
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Not yet, but new legislation has been passed. They can avail of social welfare after three months if they can prove that they have been actively seeking work, undergone training or attended job interviews.



    Is it not at the discretion of each individual state? Might be worth writing a letter to Mary Hanafin addressing your concerns. See what she says.


  • #77
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,431 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    dlofnep wrote: »
    http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/citizenship/movement/fsj_citizenship_movement_en.htm

    Might be worth a read. Correct me if I'm wrong, but people cannot just come here and immediately receive aid AFAIK.

    Maybe theoretically they cannot, but the fact is that if they arrive here and do not work, then they have to survive somehow. Now, I would call that aid, hand outs or whatever. If they ask, they shall receive!


  • #78
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Shouldn´t we postpone this thread till 2011 and wait to see if the theoretical immigrant hordes do actually arrive here en masse before having this discussion.
    It all seems unlikely to me, however.

    Ahhh, deja vu.

    Quotes on East European Immigration before the second Nice Treaty referendum

    "There is no reason to believe... that large numbers of workers will wish to come"
    [Dick Roche, Irish Times, Letters, 12.07.2002]

    "Ireland will be in precisely the same position as all other member states on the question of free movement following any enlargement of the Community."
    [Dick Roche - as reported in Irish Times, Sept. 2002]

    "It is the view of the Irish government and a number of other governments that this idea that there is going to be a huge influx of immigrants is just not supported. The evidence is just not there for it. They are not going to flood to the west. The same rules are going to apply in all 15 states. There is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland are less anxious to stay in their home as (sic) we are.
    [Dick Roche, transcript of interview with The Irish Catholic, Govt. Buildings 19.09.2002]

    "It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland."
    [Pronsias De Rossa MEP, Irish Times, Letters, 20.08.2002]

    "The expected trickle of immigration to Ireland will on balance benefit the Irish economy."
    [Pronsias De Rossa MEP, Irish Times, Letters, 20.08.2002]

    "I estimate that fewer than 2,000 [two thousand] will choose our distant shores each year."
    [Pronsias De Rossa MEP, Irish Times, Letters 20.08.2002]

    "There is no evidence there would be a problem with free movement of workers on accession."
    [Bertie Ahern, Dail Eireann, 10.09.2002]

    "Efforts have been made to foment fears that migrants from the new member states could flock to Ireland. This is not only unpleasant but plainly wrong."
    [Brian Cowan, Sunday Business Post, 07.07.2002]

    "Ireland is already benefiting from the skills and energy of workers from the applicant states, about 7,000 [seven thousand] of whom received work permits last year. There is no basis whatever for expecting a huge upsurge in these numbers."
    [Brian Cowan, Sunday Business Post, 07.07.2002]

    "The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from the new EU member countries in Eastern Europe. This is probably the most odious of the myths propagated by some in the "No" campaign."
    [Willie O'Dea, Sunday Independent , Summer 2002]


  • #79
    pirelli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭pirelli


    I would imagine they will slowly bring the social welfare system of payments in line with other Eu countries. So ireland will not bare the brunt anymore than any other european country.

    Ireland has one fatal weakness. The sky high price of everything and the pushy civil service. The cost of living here is so so much greater. Should the social wlefare be lowered it wil force people below the poverty line.

    It also might see money being siphoned from here to eastern countries as the ratio to their cost of living would make it worthwhile and that is something we can never control. The only upside is for landlords as each welfare receipient will require an address to sign from. This can be controlled and rents here are prohibitively expensive. That might be one area of ensuring that this does not become an epidemic.

    Rent allowance should only be given to those that have saved sufficent credits through working and are over 12 months unemployed. I would never see anyone living on the street and other measures could ensure people get flats.
    This country can turn any dilema into a profitable oppourtunity with some simple legislation. No more than the bedroom size of a property can sign at the same address.

    I would welcome this oppourtunity as another challenge for micro - management.
    The future is nano management and beyond.


  • #80
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Not yet, but new legislation has been passed. They can avail of social welfare after three months if they can prove that they have been actively seeking work, undergone training or attended job interviews.

    So, they´re going to save up enough money in their own deeply impoverished countries, to live here for 3 months without employment (3 months living here would last how long there?), so they can then bum about on the dole?


  • #81
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    So, they´re going to save up enough money in their own deeply impoverished countries, to live here for 3 months without employment (3 months living here would last how long there?), so they can then bum about on the dole?

    The can sign up with the health board. They will provide payment whilst their claims are being processed.


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  • #82
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Ahhh, deja vu.

    Quotes on East European Immigration before the second Nice Treaty referendum

    "There is no reason to believe... that large numbers of workers will wish to come"
    [Dick Roche, Irish Times, Letters, 12.07.2002]

    "Ireland will be in precisely the same position as all other member states on the question of free movement following any enlargement of the Community."
    [Dick Roche - as reported in Irish Times, Sept. 2002]

    "It is the view of the Irish government and a number of other governments that this idea that there is going to be a huge influx of immigrants is just not supported. The evidence is just not there for it. They are not going to flood to the west. The same rules are going to apply in all 15 states. There is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland are less anxious to stay in their home as (sic) we are.
    [Dick Roche, transcript of interview with The Irish Catholic, Govt. Buildings 19.09.2002]

    "It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland."
    [Pronsias De Rossa MEP, Irish Times, Letters, 20.08.2002]

    "The expected trickle of immigration to Ireland will on balance benefit the Irish economy."
    [Pronsias De Rossa MEP, Irish Times, Letters, 20.08.2002]

    "I estimate that fewer than 2,000 [two thousand] will choose our distant shores each year."
    [Pronsias De Rossa MEP, Irish Times, Letters 20.08.2002]

    "There is no evidence there would be a problem with free movement of workers on accession."
    [Bertie Ahern, Dail Eireann, 10.09.2002]

    "Efforts have been made to foment fears that migrants from the new member states could flock to Ireland. This is not only unpleasant but plainly wrong."
    [Brian Cowan, Sunday Business Post, 07.07.2002]

    "Ireland is already benefiting from the skills and energy of workers from the applicant states, about 7,000 [seven thousand] of whom received work permits last year. There is no basis whatever for expecting a huge upsurge in these numbers."
    [Brian Cowan, Sunday Business Post, 07.07.2002]

    "The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from the new EU member countries in Eastern Europe. This is probably the most odious of the myths propagated by some in the "No" campaign."
    [Willie O'Dea, Sunday Independent , Summer 2002]
    Could you provide figures, so, on how many immigrants have actually arrived on our shores since the second vote on Nice, please?


  • #83
    MikeC101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Is this definitely applicable to Ireland?

    From the article, it seems to refer to the scheme that the UK had in place for the last seven years (seven years being the maximum time allowable for a "transition period", under which the Worker Registration Scheme ran).

    I'm unaware if we had a similar scheme in Ireland, the legalities of it and so on...

    Anyone?


  • #84
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Hi Mike,

    Well theres a little thing called unemployment. Its hit western europe quite hard. Theres more people looking for work than jobs available. Its quite the conundrum. Now, western european states have a system in place for the unemployed. Its called social welfare. In Ireland, its rather high. Higher than the accession states average wage. Some of the unemployed accession states citizens may decide to venture to Ireland and try to find employment. They will be well aware that if they have no joy in the job market, that after three months, they can avail of the liberal and lavish Irish social welfare system.

    Or they "may" decide to venture to another Western European state. Perhaps one where there is more chance of actually getting a job (in one of the states which have emerged from recession for example) or one with a lower cost of living (kinda impartant given that "three month" thing) one with better public services, infrastructure and quallity of life (quite a long list) or even one with a more fabulously generous social security system.
    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Could you provide figures, so, on how many immigrants have actually arrived on our shores since the second vote on Nice, please?

    And how many are still here ?


  • #85
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Could you provide figures, so, on how many immigrants have actually arrived on our shores since the second vote on Nice, please?

    Well its not 2,000 per annum as was suggested.

    Try here; http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_years.aspx


  • #86
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    From April 2011, immigrants from Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and the Czech Republic - where income levels are 40% of the European average - will be allowed to claim Jobseekers' Allowance and other benefits after just three months. This is provided they can prove that they have been actively seeking work, undergone training or attended job interviews.
    Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=500719&in_page_id=2#ixzz0hbm4mKAY
    Ho, ho, ho. This should be fun. It will bring a new wave of tourists into the Irish state, unfortunately, they will be welfare tourists.:rolleyes:

    Off again.....?

    That article refers to Britain by the way. This board is used by people in a different country.


  • #87
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    Is this definitely applicable to Ireland?

    From the article, it seems to refer to the scheme that the UK had in place for the last seven years (seven years being the maximum time allowable for a "transition period", under which the Worker Registration Scheme ran).

    I'm unaware if we had a similar scheme in Ireland, the legalities of it and so on...

    Anyone?

    It is an EU directive applicable to all.


  • #88
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    You still haven't explained why you were posting anti-semetic material either.......
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64797881&postcount=72


  • #89
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    Well its not 2,000 per annum as was suggested.

    Try here; http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_years.aspx

    That tells me figures are well down in 2009 and I would expect those figures to be even lower for 2010.
    Also, those are figures for allocation of PPS numbers, not for active PPS numbers.


  • #90
    MikeC101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    IrishManSaipan wrote: »
    It.Is.An.EU.Wide.Directive.

    You missed my point. The article is about the seven year UK scheme coming to an end, so it appears the Directive.Is.Seven.Years.Old. (does using "." instead of a space make a point more valid or something?)

    I'm asking if we had a similar one in Ireland, or if we are already operating in line with the directive.


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  • #91
    IrishManSaipan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    Nodin wrote: »
    Off again.....?

    That article refers to Britain by the way. This board is used by people in a different country.

    Hi Nodin,

    Maybe you missed this bit, "Taxpayers face paying millions of pounds in extra benefits to Eastern European immigrants because of changes to EU regulations".

    We are also members of the EU.

    Thanks a million.


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