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Baptismal Certs: Manditory or No?

  • 08-02-2010 06:01PM
    #1
    McChubbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,080 ✭✭✭


    I'm told that in order to be accepted into most schools in this country, a child must have a baptismal cert or
    some other form to state that they've undergone a christening ceromony.

    According to several members of my predominantly Catholic family, if you don't have a baptismal cert,
    you might as well not exist as you can't get a PPS number, a driver's license-all sorts of nonsense.

    Having said that, I post here in a bid to find a more reasonable answer.

    I don't have any children of my own but I've long since made the decision to raise any potential offspring I might have
    as athiest and I worry that this "no bapstimal cert, no life" nonsense might have a ring of truth to it.

    At the moment, I generally dismiss such notions as "propaganda" but is there any truth to it?
    Would I potentially be shooting myself in the foot by not having my future offspring undergoe a christening, communion or conformation?

    It's something I've often thought about but I've never been given a straight answer.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #3
    McChubbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,080 ✭✭✭McChubbin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Is it a manditory requirement, though? I ask only because about 90% of all schools in this country are Catholic and/or religious. If there is some wiggle room, I'd like to know for future reference.

    I appologize if I appear somewhat naive on this subject but giving my family background, there are few people close to me who I have a proper conversation with on this matter.


  • #4
    emanresu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭emanresu


    The school enrollment requirement is a photocopy of the Birth Certificate.
    The application form also asks for the PPS number.
    A Baptismal Certificate is not required, even by Catholic schools.

    The state (Dept of Social and Family Affairs) issues the PPS number,
    and does not ask for a Baptismal Certificate.


  • #5
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    It isn't true to say that you will not get your kid into a catholic school without a birth cert, but it's certainly true that your kid stands more of a chance if they have one.

    The Education Act gives school boards the right to discriminate in favour of maintaining the "ethos" of their school.


  • #6
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    McChubbin wrote: »
    I'm told that in order to be accepted into most schools in this country, a child must have a baptismal cert or some other form to state that they've undergone a christening ceromony.
    As donegalfella says, you'll find a baptismal certificate helpful when you're trying to get your kid into one of the schools controlled by the Vatican, and in this country around 92% of them are. Luckily, there are a few schools -- mostly around Dublin -- that admit kids based upon the order in which they applied (the "Educate Together" schools), but the waiting list for all of them is quite long, so get your (future) kids name down early if you want a chance to get them in. If you apply to get into a school controlled by the Vatican, then the school board is legally permitted to allow the kids of more conformist people than you to skip past your position in the queue.

    Outside of that, your birth certificate is the most important document you need and that's something that the government will give you, not the church. In general, anything the church provides you with has the same legal authority as a membership card for your local video shop.

    That said, if you bring your kid to hospital, you will be asked "what religion" he or she is. I don't understand what relevance this has to medical treatment and would be interested to hear any theories.


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  • #7
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8
    emanresu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭emanresu


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I actually posted my last post before I saw this one (I can't believe it took me that long to type it).
    Maybe this is true in some places, but I know of three schools which did not ask for Baptismal Certificates. This was about five years ago. One was a CBS, one was run by Sisters of Mercy and the other was a national school under the patronage of the diocese. All of these schools have non-catholic students.


  • #9
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    emanresu wrote: »
    Maybe this is true in some places, but I know of three schools which did not ask for Baptismal Certificates.
    Did the application forms ask for a "religion"?


  • #10
    emanresu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭emanresu


    Dades wrote: »
    Did the application forms ask for a "religion"?

    The CBS did ask for religion, but the national school didn't.
    I don't have form for the Sisters of Mercy school anymore.
    But none of them asked for a Baptismal Certificate.


  • #11
    LostinKildare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 992 ✭✭✭LostinKildare


    I can answer this -- I have a child who is not baptised.

    Baptismal cert has nothing to do with getting a PPS number (or passport, driver's licence, etc.). You only need the birth cert.

    If you go to enroll your child in a Catholic or Protestant school, they will ask for a copy of the baptismal cert. If you don't have it, then it is up to the individual school whether to accept your child or not -- they can legally discriminate against your child on the basis of religion. From my observation, this usually comes into play in areas with overcrowded schools (i.e., when there are limited places, the school will take the baptised child over the unbaptised child).


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  • #12
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    emanresu wrote: »
    The CBS did ask for religion, but the national school didn't.
    I don't have form for the Sisters of Mercy school anymore.
    But none of them asked for a Baptismal Certificate.
    Interesting. Do these schools not do interviews with parents/kids before making decisions, though?

    I find it difficult to believe (though I'd like to) that a RC school won't ask your religion at any point before making a decision on your kids eligibility.


  • #13
    LostinKildare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 992 ✭✭✭LostinKildare


    emanresu wrote: »
    The CBS did ask for religion, but the national school didn't.
    I don't have form for the Sisters of Mercy school anymore.
    But none of them asked for a Baptismal Certificate.

    Are those primary or secondary schools? I think most primary schools ask for the cert, but I guess it can vary from school to school (just as the enforcement varies). And I wouldn't be surprised if schools in Dublin and other cities weren't a bit more lenient than elsewhere.


  • #14
    McChubbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,080 ✭✭✭McChubbin


    Thank you all so much for the informed and insightful replies.
    I was worried that sometime down the road a lack of religion in my child's life would prove to be more of a curse than a blessing.

    However, I think it's ridiculous that the school board are legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

    In regards to the long lists for secular schools, if gven the choice between enrolling my children in the Catholic school across the road or the secular school 45 minutes away, I'd choose the latter.


  • #15
    emanresu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭emanresu


    LostinKildare wrote: »
    Are those primary or secondary schools?

    Primary, in Ennis.


  • #16
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,384 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    McChubbin wrote: »

    However, I think it's ridiculous that the school board are legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

    Absolutely, while funded from the State. Self-funding and private, I don't care who they let in or don't. There is a many-pronged campaign currently to get rid of that ludicrous section of the 'Equality' legislation.


  • #17
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    McChubbin wrote: »
    Thank you all so much for the informed and insightful replies.
    I was worried that sometime down the road a lack of religion in my child's life would prove to be more of a curse than a blessing.

    However, I think it's ridiculous that the school board are legally allowed to discriminate on the grounds of religion.

    In regards to the long lists for secular schools, if gven the choice between enrolling my children in the Catholic school across the road or the secular school 45 minutes away, I'd choose the latter.

    It is absolutely ridiculous and unfortunately you may not have an option. We went around the local schools and were told not to bother applying for some of the local ones as they would have to find alternative arrangements for non-catholics during religious classes and as they had plenty of catholics from all over town to choose from, they wouldn't deliberately make life harder for themselves by choosing an atheists child - even though we live near by. :mad:

    I put the kids names down at the local ET school when they were born - my son was 15th on the list or something, so get names down as soon as you can. :eek:


  • #18
    McChubbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,080 ✭✭✭McChubbin


    There really should be more resources for athiest/agnostics when it comes to education. Why should my children be forced to endure lectures on how they'll go to hell if they don't blow their noses?

    Utterly ridiculous.


  • #19
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Does this have something to do with administering last rites, in case of emergency?[/QUOTE]No idea. I wouldn't have thought so anyway since it was the fourth question, after sex, name and date of birth. Seemed to give the infernal infection a pride of place it did not deserve.

    BTW, I mentioned this a few months back, but this happened late last year in Temple Street hospital -- my protestations that my kid was three and therefore had neither been exposed to religion, nor developed the need for one were met with a blank stare, followed by mrs robindch's slightly more helpful suggestion that the registrar put down "none".


  • #20
    rccaulfield
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭rccaulfield


    Bump- going thru this dilemma myself. Where do all the muslims etc go in this country for schooling then?


  • #21
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    McChubbin wrote: »
    I'm told that in order to be accepted into most schools in this country, a child must have a baptismal cert or
    some other form to state that they've undergone a christening ceromony.

    According to several members of my predominantly Catholic family, if you don't have a baptismal cert,
    you might as well not exist as you can't get a PPS number, a driver's license-all sorts of nonsense.

    Having said that, I post here in a bid to find a more reasonable answer.

    I don't have any children of my own but I've long since made the decision to raise any potential offspring I might have
    as athiest and I worry that this "no bapstimal cert, no life" nonsense might have a ring of truth to it.

    At the moment, I generally dismiss such notions as "propaganda" but is there any truth to it?
    Would I potentially be shooting myself in the foot by not having my future offspring undergoe a christening, communion or conformation?

    It's something I've often thought about but I've never been given a straight answer.
    Just filled out the enrolement form for my kid yesterday. Its for a rural catholic school and there was no " What religion is your child" question and a birth cert or baptismal cert will do. Relieved but feeling slightly cheated of the opportunity to rant a bit!!:)


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  • #22
    James74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭James74


    Dades wrote: »
    Interesting. Do these schools not do interviews with parents/kids before making decisions, though?

    I find it difficult to believe (though I'd like to) that a RC school won't ask your religion at any point before making a decision on your kids eligibility.

    My daughter started primary school this year in a rural Donegal catholic school. No questions on religion were asked and no baptismal certificate was asked for.

    Early in the school year I nervously mentioned to her teacher that we were raising our daughter with no religion. The teacher seemed genuinely surprised that I even though that they would be doing anything even mildly religious yet, and I was told "that sort of stuff" is for later on. I was really pleased with her attitude.

    Now that's just one teacher in one school, and it's probably not the norm, but this is a rural, largely catholic area in north Donegal, so if it can happen here maybe the times really are a'changing. Here's hoping.


  • #23
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    McChubbin wrote: »
    There really should be more resources for athiest/agnostics when it comes to education. Why should my children be forced to endure lectures on how they'll go to hell if they don't blow their noses?

    Utterly ridiculous.


    Irrespective of whether your child has a baptismal certificate or not, they have an absolute constitutional right not to be forced to endure any lectures on religious subjects unless you as the parent give the say so.
    BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    Article 42:1 1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

    Article 44:4 Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

    Don't be afraid to insist on your child's consitutional rights (which trump every other policy or law in this country) being respected. As a non-Catholic Christian minister I have, on occasion, accompanied parents to see school principals and reminded them of what the Constitution states (they tend to get very snippy when you do this). On one occasion a principal ignored me and still tried to force children to attend a Catholic mass - he only stopped when the reporters from a national radio station were ringing him up and asking him to go on air about it. You, as a taxpayer, are funding these schools - so be prepared to insist that they don't drive a coach and horses through the Constitution.


  • #24
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN
    Article 42:1 1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

    Article 44:4 Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
    Does that not mean that a school cannot discriminate according to religion since religion is not the ethos of a school but just the framework for which the school operates culturally, morally etc i.e. Thus is it not possible for me to follow a catholic ethos without believing in a god? I hope ye get my meaning


  • #25
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,426 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    James74 wrote: »
    My daughter started primary school this year in a rural Donegal catholic school. No questions on religion were asked and no baptismal certificate was asked for.

    Early in the school year I nervously mentioned to her teacher that we were raising our daughter with no religion. The teacher seemed genuinely surprised that I even though that they would be doing anything even mildly religious yet, and I was told "that sort of stuff" is for later on. I was really pleased with her attitude.

    Now that's just one teacher in one school, and it's probably not the norm, but this is a rural, largely catholic area in north Donegal, so if it can happen here maybe the times really are a'changing. Here's hoping.

    I think a lot of rural schools are like that. None of the schools around here distinguish between Catholics and non Catholics. They can't afford to in many rural areas, the population is so small they need to take in every child they can get.


  • #26
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    rccaulfield wrote: »
    Bump- going thru this dilemma myself. Where do all the muslims etc go in this country for schooling then?

    Catholic Schools.

    About 80% of everything written above this is hysteria.

    When I was at school there was a waiting list, plenty of 'good' baptised boys trying to get in, but we got our fair share of muslim lads entering after the Junior Cert (and this was ten years ago).


    I was never asked for my baptismal cert when I was applying, I had to request a copy from the parish when I was making my Confirmation.

    Obviously this isn't evidence, just one example, but I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools. Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.


    Dont get me wrong, in principle it would be bad, but I dont see it happening in reality.


  • #27
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Glenster wrote: »
    but I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools.

    Eh...
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    We went around the local schools and were told not to bother applying for some of the local ones as they would have to find alternative arrangements for non-catholics during religious classes and as they had plenty of catholics from all over town to choose from, they wouldn't deliberately make life harder for themselves by choosing an atheists child - even though we live near by. :mad:
    Glenster wrote: »
    Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.

    Well, at least no-one could ever accuse you of being any of those things...oh wait...


  • #28
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Glenster wrote: »
    Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.
    You have been carded for insulting the kids of another posters.

    Please apologise. Publicly.

    thanks.


  • #29
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Glenster wrote: »
    I would question how everyone here knows that if you aren't catholic that is the reason you dont get into schools. Maybe your kids are just stupid. or unathletic. or skobes.


    Certainly I didn't mean to imply that anyone's kids are anything other than little delights. And if you got that impression I apologise.

    However, I used the conditional case to refer to theoretical kids so clearly it wasn't directed at anyone personally. The You was also plural and general (ie. Youse guys), though that is, of course, unprovable. I assumed that everyone would realise that I wasn't attacking anyone's kids.

    Why would everyone assume I was speaking specifically to Ickle Magoo? I was addressing PDN marching families down to schools and insisting that they accept children as some sort of given enshrined in the constitution. And McChubbin assuming that you would be rejected from a school based primarily on your religion. Perhaps in one horse towns that's the case, but not in any sort of urban area.

    I would object to the fact that I was asked publicly to apologise, I have no problem apologising to someone personally, but I certainly have no intention of providing obesiance porn to internet voyeurs.


  • #30
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Glenster wrote: »
    Certainly I didn't mean to imply that anyone's kids are anything other than little delights. And if you got that impression I apologise.

    However, I used the conditional case to refer to theoretical kids so clearly it wasn't directed at anyone personally. The You was also plural and general (ie. Youse guys), though that is, of course, unprovable. I assumed that everyone would realise that I wasn't attacking anyone's kids.

    Why would everyone assume I was speaking specifically to Ickle Magoo? I was addressing PDN marching families down to schools and insisting that they accept children as some sort of given enshrined in the constitution. And McChubbin assuming that you would be rejected from a school based primarily on your religion. Perhaps in one horse towns that's the case, but not in any sort of urban area.

    I would object to the fact that I was asked publicly to apologise, I have no problem apologising to someone personally, but I certainly have no intention of providing obesiance porn to internet voyeurs.

    my theoritical kids aren't stupid and if they were either stupid or unathletic they still couldn't be discriminated against

    although its ok fore irish schools (not just catholic btw) to discriminate on religious ground

    anyhow i want an apology for you saying my theoritical kids are scobies


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  • #31
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    It doesn't matter who your post was aimed at, inferring anyone's kids are refused a place at a state funded faith school - something many people here deal with - as being in some way connected to some failing on their child's part rather than the system is insulting and ignorant in the extreme.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that those who have no issue with the current system, ironically usually aren't even old enough to have any kind of parental involvement with the system, seem to be the only ones defending the current education system.


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