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Faith in Science as Ridiculous as Faith in God.

245

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    robindch wrote: »
    Could you name, say, five atheists who make this claim?

    It's just atheists I've talked too and comments I've seen on boards. I don't see the point in naming them.
    It would seem to me that for many atheists science has become a faith.
    If you look at some of the comments here you'd think I'd posted a picture of Mohammed on an Muslim forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I don't understand where you are coming from DeBunny. Science at it's core is scepticism, faith is the complete opposite. How can one have faith in scepticism? It's a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron if you will.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    DeBunny wrote: »
    It's just atheists I've talked too and comments I've seen on boards. I don't see the point in naming them.

    Nonsense.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    DeBunny wrote: »
    If you want to be insulted that's your choice. It wasn't my intention.
    Maybe rather than commenting on the reaction you got, you could comment on the rebuttals to your original post?

    Repeating yourself won't convince anyone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    I am just bored of you and your duplicates wading in here with the same old debunked arguments that you just read on your favy Christian website. Unless you have something interesting or original to say then you are going to have to deal with complaints about your mind-numbing posting style.

    In addition, I don't have faith in science. I say this only so you can stop making a fool of yourself with spurious assumptions.

    Where did you get the idea I was a Christian? If you actually read my thread title you'll see I find faith in god to be ridiculous.

    If I can't be uninteresting and unoriginal on boards then where can can I. ;)
    Like wise with me having to deal with complaints; if you're going to participate on boards you'll have to expect repeat questions.
    Repeat questions on boards are par for the course.

    I was not trying to piss you off. Stop taking it so personally.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    DeBunny wrote: »
    Jeez, chill out lads. I'm not attacking you or science. Just the faith that many people seem to have in science. There are a lot of aspects of science that are starting to resemble religion. [EDIT]: I think your over the top reactions prove my point.

    If you want to be insulted that's your choice. It wasn't my intention.

    I'm just responding to the thread title. It's a statement. If you had "Do science and religion both require an equal amount of faith" or something along those lines then I would have given a different response. Perhaps this was your intention..


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    DeBunny wrote: »
    It's just atheists I've talked too and comments I've seen on boards. I don't see the point in naming them.
    I've asked you to name them -- or point me towards some forum where frequent posters make this claim commonly -- because what you have said is a common misconception amongst religious people and people who are unfamiliar with what atheists and formal agnostics actually think. I've been hanging around atheists for many years and I've yet to hear a single atheist say that.

    So, can you substantiate your claim?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    DeBunny wrote: »
    Fair enough, but, we know that chromosomes form into shapes, it is still not known how this happens

    Yes it is. We know exactly how DNA is packaged (in the sense that science can know anything "exactly").


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    robindch wrote: »
    I've asked you to name them -- or point me towards some forum where frequent posters make this claim commonly -- because what you have said is a common misconception amongst religious people and people who are unfamiliar with what atheists and formal agnostics actually think. I've been hanging around atheists for many years and I've yet to hear a single atheist say that.

    So, can you substantiate your claim?

    Here's one example. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055840429
    I don't think I'm wrong in saying many people would agree with this zealous attitude


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    OP I think the fact that all discoveries about the physical universe have been as a result of scientific research and testing is what gives most people confidence that it's a good way to try to understand the world.

    Science may or may not explain everything (probably not), but the rich history of success is an indication that the scientific method is the right way to go about explaining it.

    Compared with religion, which has explained...... nothing at all, nothing at all, nothing at all......

    stupid_sexy_flanders.jpg


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    DeBunny wrote: »
    It's just atheists I've talked too and comments I've seen on boards. I don't see the point in naming them.
    It would seem to me that for many atheists science has become a faith...

    Atheists have only a lack of belief in a god in common, they haven't congregated around and started praying to the Hadron Colider. What do you mean by science has become a faith? Science is rational, evidence based and peer reviewed after full disclosure. I trust that system more than I trust archaic religions built around superstition and anecdotes, I don't think that qualifies my views of the scientific method, or the world for that matter, as a form of blind faith a la religion. :confused:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    DeBunny wrote: »
    robindch wrote:
    DeBunny wrote: »
    Despite this, many atheists claim ''science will eventually figure it all out''.
    Could you name, say, five atheists who make this claim?
    Here's one example. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055840429
    Where does Memnoch claim that "science will eventually figure it all out'', or something similar? I can't see it on a first reading.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    sink wrote: »
    I don't understand where you are coming from DeBunny. Science at it's core is scepticism, faith is the complete opposite. How can one have faith in scepticism? It's a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron if you will.

    It doesn't stop people having faith in it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    DeBunny wrote: »
    Here's one example. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055840429
    I don't think I'm wrong in saying many people would agree with this zealous attitude

    Did you read the thread? NOBODY agreed with him. He got one thanks after admitting his point was ridiculous...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    DeBunny wrote: »
    It doesn't stop people having faith in it.

    I guess it depends on your definition of faith, whether it's a general trust of something or an unevidenced belief in it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    DeBunny wrote: »
    if you're going to participate on boards you'll have to expect repeat questions.

    I am very aware of this, but on this forum, the problem of posters coming on here with the "oh, science/atheism is a faith system too, ninininini" argument is becoming irritating. I have been one of a few to suggest that an FAQ be created for you and your ilk, as a sort of buffer to the onslaught. If you are interested in such a debate, then I suggest you scroll down through recent debates on the subject, where you will find dozens of pages to read, at your leisure. You have nothing original to say. We have heard it all before. It is boring.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    Perhaps the OP should read, "Faith is ridiculous". full stop as it were...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Whoah boy this could be interesting.

    First of all DeBunny, it's important to note that there is no connection between any atheists. We don't have a Bible or a Pope or any ties at all really. If one atheist says something stupid then the only person you can hold that against is that atheist (as opposed to if the Pope says something you can hold his Bishops responsible if they continue to support him).

    Most of what you've said seems to stem from confusion. Let's see if we can clear some of it up:

    Faith: Believing something in the absence of, or contrary to, evidence ("There is a magic fairy in my hat!").

    Confidence in something: Believing something is likely to be correct based on a previous track record and the sound principles it follows ("The sun will rise tomorrow!" or "My wife won't stab me while I'm making breakfast.")

    I, and the majority of atheists and reasonable people, have confidence in the scientific method. Bear in mind that science is not a body of knowledge, it is a tool by which we update and correct that body of knowledge. We don't claim science knows everything, or that it will ever know everything. However, if we encounter a question like "Why does this thing go like this?" or "How did that get there?" we have confidence that if that question is ever to be answered it is likely to be science that will explain it. Time and time and time again we have seen throughout history that religious thinking leads to answers that are false (but often comforting), and that it takes a good dose of diligent science to prove them wrong. But of course, scientists have made mistakes. But what we see time and again is that whenever a scientist has been proven wrong, it was another even harder working scientist who got the right answer.

    When it comes to the really difficult questions such as "Why is there something rather than nothing?" or "What is subjective consciousness?" we might never have an answer, and I'm happy to admit that. I'm certainly not going to do what a religious person does and give an answer that amounts to "It's magic!"

    We don't have faith in science. But in a world where most questions have one correct answer and an infinite number of incorrect answers, I think it is reasonable to trust the system that is most cautious. That's science.


    Next time you run into an atheist claiming that science either knows everything or will definitely some day know everything (I suspect it would be the first time, but I digress) you feel free to tell them they're an idiot, because the first is false and the second is unlikely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    Geuss I should have tested the waters a bit more before posting a thread like this.
    I would atleast hope I didn't come across as bad as these two :o
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055822214
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055798315

    My perception of atheists of having a belief in science to figure ''it'' all out comes from atheists I've had conversations with and the generally self righteous nature a lot of atheists seem to have. Which, I suppose, comes with being able to explain things in a logical and reasonable manner, and being able to back up statements with solid facts.
    Would it be fair to say that the perception of atheists is that they have a faith in science, whether this is the case or not?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    My perception of people with blue eyes of having a liking for chocolate ice cream comes from blue eyed people I've had conversations with and the generally chocolate-loving nature a lot of blue eyed people seem to have. Which, I suppose, comes with being able to enjoy the smooth creaminess of ice cream, and being able to savour chocolatey goodness.
    Would it be fair to say that the perception of blue eyed people is that they have a liking for chocolate ice cream, whether this is the case or not?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    cavedave wrote: »
    If I believe that "all parts of matter involve mind" and quite possibly the universe has some purpose am I an atheist?

    I do not believe in a personal god that does magic tricks for you and gives you pie in the sky when you die.

    Yeah, Panpsychism seems pretty close to what I believe, although I've never really put a name to it. It would seem to me, to be similar to the core belief of hinduism, in that every thing is consciousness. It just strips away the unnecessary worship of deities.

    Might be taking a risk here but, to reiterate/ rephrase cavedave's question, if I see the universe as being innately intelligent, but don't consider it to be ''god'' or worship it in any way, is this a form of atheism?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    Can you explain what you mean by the universe being "innately intelligent"? (preferably in clear, rational terms, without hand waving)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    DeBunny wrote: »
    Geuss I should have tested the waters a bit more before posting a thread like this.
    I would atleast hope I didn't come across as bad as these two :o
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055822214
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055798315

    My perception of atheists of having the a belief in science to figure ''it'' all out comes from atheists I've had conversations with and the generally self righteous nature a lot of atheists seem to have. Which, I suppose, comes with being able to explain things in a logical and reasonable manner, and being able to back up statements with solid facts.
    Would it be fair to say that the perception of atheists is that they have a faith in science, whether this is the case or not?

    I believe what you are engaging in is summarized in common parlance by the verb 'stereotyping'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    DeBunny wrote: »
    if I see the universe as being innately intelligent, but don't consider it to be ''god'' or worship it in any way, is this a form of atheism?

    It's a matter of interpretation really man. All athiesm is the lack of a belief in a deity. Some people have defferent interpretation of what a deity is. In my opinion I would say you were an atheist but I wouldn't say thier are any different forms of atheism.

    To be honest I'm at a loss to understand why you care? What's this need to put a label on yourself or what you believe? It really doesn't make a difference. If it makes you feel better write out all your beliefs, call that specific set of beliefs Debunnyism, and have done with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    Can you explain what you mean by the universe being "innately intelligent"? (preferably in clear, rational terms, without hand waving)

    Yeah, but less of the unnecessary sarcasm please. I'm asking questions (stupid as you may find them) that I want answers to for myself. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

    There are a lot of things in the universe that seem to just know what they are supposed to do with out any other (so far) observable influences. For example, the constituent parts of the atom. We know what they are doing but not how. They just do it.

    At the most basic level everything in existence is pure energy/information and it doesn't rely on anything else to influence it or tell it what to do. It just knows. Or so it would appear to me.

    I see our intelligence as part of the broader intelligence of the universe. Part of the cycle. I don't think our intelligence came from nothing. It's a symptom of the universe's intelligence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    sink wrote: »
    I believe what you are engaging in is summarized in common parlance by the verb 'stereotyping'.

    Which is why I underlined, ''generally''. [EDIT]: Could be wrong but I think you just reinforced the stereotype ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    strobe wrote: »
    It's a matter of interpretation really man. All athiesm is the lack of a belief in a deity. Some people have defferent interpretation of what a deity is. In my opinion I would say you were an atheist but I wouldn't say thier are any different forms of atheism.

    To be honest I'm at a loss to understand why you care? What's this need to put a label on yourself or what you believe? It really doesn't make a difference. If it makes you feel better write out all your beliefs, call that specific set of beliefs Debunnyism, and have done with it.

    I'm not that worried about it. It's interesting is all. It's not like I'm gonna get a sticker and put it on my forehead. Although . . . . . . DeBunnyism . . . . . . . With a half decent website and a few crappy youtube videos I'm sure I could have a sizable following in a couple of months. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    DeBunny wrote:
    There are a lot of things in the universe that seem to just know what they are supposed to
    What do you mean by "supposed to"?
    DeBunny wrote: »
    I don't think our intelligence came from nothing. It's a symptom of the universe's intelligence.
    And what is the universe's intelligence a symptom of?

    The universe is as it is and no one knows why. We exist and have what we call intelligence as a result of the universe being as it is

    To say that the reason the universe is as it is is due to it having intelligence is just headwrecking and doesn't mean anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭DeBunny


    What do you mean by "supposed to"?

    It doesn't just fall apart and become an incoherent mess. Like the parts of an atom.
    And what is the universe's intelligence a symptom of?

    It's part of the cycle. It goes on and on and on and ..................................

    With the way computers are progressing, we're not far from creating our own universes and intelligence. That'll be more of the cycle.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    DeBunny wrote: »
    It doesn't just fall apart and become an incoherent mess. Like the parts of an atom.
    But what is "incoherent"?

    What if we just interpret certain things as coherent and incoherent because the universe just is like it is?
    DeBunny wrote: »
    It's part of the cycle. It goes on and on and on and ..................................

    With the way computers are progressing, we're not far from creating our own universes and intelligence. That'll be more of the cycle.
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here...

    What exactly intelligence is and what computers are capable of is a huge philosophical and technological question...


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