Time for an 'alternative' Green Party?

Red_Marauder · 13-02-2010 11:08PM

taconnol wrote: »

Firstly, as Scofflaw has already pointed out, countries with much worse weather than us have much higher cycling rates.

As someone who visits Sweden regularly, I am certain that they get far better summers than we tend to, and obviously there are considerably longer daylight hours.

Their Summertime weather is not dissimiliar to what you see in Northern Germany.

I'm not saying that bikes wouldn't work here, but at least summertime weather is definitely more of a factor than it is in Sweden. You would be wrong to say that swedes (or the Danes especially) use their bikes as enthusiastically throughout the year.

thebman · 13-02-2010 11:12PM

I was cycling to work and stopped. I was almost hit 3 times by drivers driving children to the school near my house.

The road is a good road. The problem is they have this habbit of pulling in before they have finished over taking me on two occassions and the last time a driver just pulled out clean across me.

I went back to driving. Its dryer, more comfortable and less dangerous. I think about half the people on our roads shouldn't be there.

Macha · 13-02-2010 11:14PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I'm not saying that bikes wouldn't work here, but at least summertime weather is definitely more of a factor than it is in Sweden. You would be wrong to say that swedes (or the Danes especially) use their bikes as enthusiastically throughout the year.

And as someone who lived in Norway for a long time, I can tell you it is feckin hilly over there but they still manage to get on their bikes.

Another point I'd make is that the number of cyclists is actually going down, according to CSO figures. That is real figures, not just percentage. Now don't tell me that's because the weather is getting worse!

Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic. I don't believe there is any need for another Green Party. My ideal future would be for all political parties to take a holistic, sustainable approach to their policies, including a comprehensive environmental policy. Until such time, I will continue to support the Green Party.

Red_Marauder · 13-02-2010 11:19PM

taconnol wrote: »

Another point I'd make is that the number of cyclists is actually going down, according to CSO figures. That is real figures, not just percentage. Now don't tell me that's because the weather is getting worse!

Well, we have had two particularly bad summers taconnol - 2007 was pretty bad too - so perhaps, yes.

Macha · 13-02-2010 11:22PM

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Well, we have had two particularly bad summers taconnol - 2007 was pretty bad too - so perhaps, yes.

Gah! I knew you were going to mention them.

The latest figures I am referring to are the census of 2006.

Guell72 · 13-02-2010 11:25PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I thought those figures seemed very high too. They make some expensive assumptions, because my figures are nowhere near that high.

All amounts shown in this schedule are in Euros

It should be noted that the figures quoted are average only and where necessary members should substitute actual amounts

Here are their assumptions.
For the purpose of this schedule the vehicles have been valued at: €11,862, €14,571, €20,036, €24,535, €29,806, €44,728, €46,353, and € 47,770 respectively.
Car Licence: €165, €275, €320, €453, €560, €827, €1067, €1491
Insurance (Class 1 ) Average rates for Third Party, fire, Theft policies
No allowance is made for no claims discount.
Driving Licence: €25 for 10 year licence
Depreciation: Based on kilometres of 16,000 Kilometres per annum, and assuming an economical life of 128,000 Kilometres or eight years
Interest on Capital; Car value if invested at 4.5% per annum.
Garage/Parking: €79.50 per week
AA Subscription: €132 per annum
Petrol: 130.5c per litre (Unleaded)
Engine Oil: Allowance is made for variable consumption throughout the car's life and the cost of replacement after oil changes
Tyres: Estimated tyre life 48,000 kilometres
Servicing: general servicing as recommended by the manufacturers.
Repairs and Replacements: estimated on the basis of total cost of repairs, replacements and renovations over eight years or 128,000 kilometres.
AA fuel prices are based on Petrol, not diesel. Over 80% of the private car fleet in Ireland is currently petrol based. This figure may change as the new CO2-based tax system favours diesel usage.

Stroke Politics · 13-02-2010 11:40PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvtUeSjzYL0

Ah, the promise of the last campaign. I particularly love the piece at 1:45.

Play this to Gormley today, and give him a scorecard for self-assessment. How would he score himself...?

Macha · 13-02-2010 11:52PM

Stroke Politics wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvtUeSjzYL0

Ah, the promise of the last campaign. I particularly love the piece at 1:45.

Play this to Gormley today, and give him a scorecard for self-assessment. How would he score himself...?

Election promises are always compromised upon entering into a coalition. This is basic, basic, politics.

Stroke Politics · 13-02-2010 11:56PM

taconnol wrote: »

Election promises are always compromised upon entering into a coalition. This is basic, basic, politics.

Well, there's compromise and then there's spreading your árse cheeks. Politics is also about core values. The Irish Green party has none other than to remain in power and appoint their cronies to positions of authority and expense at state level......

Macha · 13-02-2010 11:57PM

Stroke Politics wrote: »

Well, there's compromise and then there's spreading your árse cheeks.

And we're back full circle. Please give details of the exact difference and what exactly the Greens should have done differently. 5 pages later and I'm still waiting for someone to do so.

IrishTonyO · 13-02-2010 11:58PM

taconnol wrote: »

Election promises are always compromised upon entering into a coalition. This is basic, basic, politics.

Maybe compromised, but when you go against your own principles that is more than compromise that is pure deceit. Especially if they only way they can implement their policies is if they have a one party government, which was never a possibility. They then knew they could not implement their policies, therefore they lied to gain power. Now that they have it, they have down complete u-turns on their policies, that is more than compromise.

IrishTonyO · 14-02-2010 12:02AM

taconnol wrote: »

And we're back full circle. Please give details of the exact difference and what exactly the Greens should have done differently. 5 pages later and I'm still waiting for someone to do so.

What they should have done differently is NOT go into government with FF. Problem solved

Stroke Politics · 14-02-2010 12:02AM

taconnol wrote: »

And we're back full circle. Please give details of the exact difference and what exactly the Greens should have done differently. 5 pages later and I'm still waiting for someone to do so.

Where to start.
1. Stood by Sargeant and stayed outside the tent.
2. Formed an alliance of the other parties of the left (they were one once) to shame both of the two main parties. Wait until the inevitable crash of FF/PD/JHR/Lowry toxin.
3. Kept Patricia McKenna onside. She might be shrill, but anyone who re-mortgages her home in the interest of fairness and balance in national referenda is worth keeping, IMO.

Macha · 14-02-2010 12:10AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

What they should have done differently is NOT go into government with FF. Problem solved

Oh right so after 16 years, they should have stayed out of politics for another 5 years. Great strategy for effecting change.

As it stands, the party members voted to go into power. That is how the Green Party works. So it's funny that people who are not members and, given the numbers in question, most probably didn't vote for the Greens, have decided that they are perfectly positioned to decide when the Greens do and do not stick to their core beliefs.

Stroke Politics wrote: »

Where to start.
1. Stood by Sargeant and stayed outside the tent.
2. Formed an alliance of the other parties of the left (they were one once) to shame both of the two main parties. Wait until the inevitable crash of FF/PD/JHR/Lowry toxin.

So enter into politics with Labour & FG? Something tells me that in a parallel universe where this happened, someone on Boards is complaining about the Greens "selling their souls" and "betraying their core beliefs".

Stroke Politics wrote: »

3. Kept Patricia McKenna onside. She might be shrill, but anyone who re-mortgages her home in the interest of fairness and balance in national referenda is worth keeping, IMO.

Patricia McKenna is very close to being certifiably insane and I can express nothing but huge relief that she has left the party.

You know it's funny because half of the posts on this thread seem Green Party policies in utter contempt (and many seem to see their policies as almost unnecessary) yet the other half seem to be about how the Green Party has "betrayed its core beliefs". Yet as a minority party in government, and with a large percentage of society clearly not being convinced by their policies, is it not logical that in a democracy this would impact on the level of Green's success in influencing Government's policies?

It would appear to me that this is a case of some people wanting to have their cake and eat it.

Stroke Politics · 14-02-2010 12:24AM

How many of the party members voted to go into power are still members of The Green Party today? How many of the current party membership are carpetbaggers from the Law Library and IBEC? It's a completely new party today? Let them eat cake....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6974111.ece

IrishTonyO · 14-02-2010 12:29AM

Some pre elections promised made by the Green Party prior to the election, and this is by no means a complete list merely a brief summary

(1)Green Party highlighted the need to remove Fianna Fail from Government and how you wanted an alternative Government excluding Fianna Fail.

You not only did not remove them you enabled them to remain in power

(2) Promised over 2,400 extra teachers in primary and secondary education

Voted for cuts in the number of teachers

(3)Promised 400 acute hospital beds and 400 step down beds

Cut the hospitals budgets massively

(4) Expand the medical card

You tried to take it away from some the over 70's

(5) Make major investments in Quality Bus Corridors and introduce frequent commuter routes

Cuts in funding again, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann reducing routes by c. 10%

(6) Opposed the motorway going through the Tara

Have let it go ahead and not mentioned in case anyone noticed

(7) Would oppose a re-running of the Lisbon Treaty

Party leaders campaigned for it

(8) Increase the number of Gardai on the streets

Numbers are down

(9) Would not go into government with Fianna Fail (well TS would not 'lead' the party into government

Talk about word play to confuse and deceive the public

Macha · 14-02-2010 12:31AM

Did you miss the global economic crisis and the housing bubble crash?

Your list does not provide, as I have asked for, an explanation of what you find acceptable for the Green Party to compromise on and not. Merely listing out compromises is somewhat pointless as I would have thought at this stage we had moved past the naive idea that the Greens would not have to compromise at all.

So again: is the above list all of the compromises that you found unacceptable for the Greens to agree to (if you even voted for the Greens or are a member)? And what do think they could have acceptable compromised on?

IrishTonyO · 14-02-2010 12:37AM

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry, did you miss the global economic crisis and the housing bubble crash?

Ah ok, I see. There is an economic crisis so please ignore anything we have said before now, and anything we have stood for. We are changing our minds, our policies and our souls. Just hope you don't notice too much, cause the power thing is quite kewl and there's a nice pension at the end of it.

I have far more respect for people who stick to their word and their principles regardless of the cost, rather than change their ideals and policies for the sake of a power trip.

IrishTonyO · 14-02-2010 12:44AM

taconnol wrote: »

So again: is the above list all of the compromises that you found unacceptable for the Greens to agree to (if you even voted for the Greens or are a member)? And what do think they could have acceptable compromised on?

No acceptable compromises, I was told before the election the Green Party would not go into government with Fianna Fail, once that was broken the rest is irrelevant. And on this I did vote Green for the first time. I will not be making the same mistake in the future. Then again by the looks of things there won't be a Green Party at the end of the next election, or maybe even prior to it. We might have Gomless Gormley still wondering but if we didn't go into power we could have done nothing. Well doing nothing and sticking to your core values and principles, is far better than doing a tiny amount (carbon tax and the like which I don't think are good anyway)and betraying your supporters and losing you soul and identity, in my opinion. At least then we would know what the Green Party stands for, now-a-days I have to check the Fianna Fail website to see what the Green policies are.

Macha · 14-02-2010 12:45AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

I have far more respect for people who stick to their word and their principles regardless of the cost, rather than change their ideals and policies for the sake of a power trip.

Oh regardless of the costs? I see. Have you had a look at the Greek economy lately? That's what happens when governments are too afraid to make the unpopular cuts necessary to keep the economy on track. The populist political rants on Boards are getting more tiring by the minute.

Macha · 14-02-2010 12:47AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

No acceptable compromises,

...and I'm done. Let me know when you come back down to reality.

This is the level and quality of debate I expect on Politics.ie. I'm disappointed to find it so widespread on here as well. A shame.

IrishTonyO · 14-02-2010 12:51AM

taconnol wrote: »

...and I'm done. Let me know when you come back down to reality.

This is the level and quality of debate I expect on Politics.ie. I'm disappointed to find it so widespread on here as well. A shame.

I am down in reality, where the Green Party are liars, have no principles, use double talk, and are rapidly losing support not only from the public or from their members, but from their councillors and parliamentary party. The other day they all agreed they were meeting everyday, except Cuffe, now that was amusing to watch, when they could not even get their lies in sync for such a small number of people.

Also I would to point out I have absolutely no party affiliations.

Scofflaw · 14-02-2010 12:52AM

Guell72 wrote: »

I thought those figures seemed very high too. They make some expensive assumptions, because my figures are nowhere near that high.

All amounts shown in this schedule are in Euros

It should be noted that the figures quoted are average only and where necessary members should substitute actual amounts

Here are their assumptions.
For the purpose of this schedule the vehicles have been valued at: €11,862, €14,571, €20,036, €24,535, €29,806, €44,728, €46,353, and € 47,770 respectively.
Car Licence: €165, €275, €320, €453, €560, €827, €1067, €1491
Insurance (Class 1 ) Average rates for Third Party, fire, Theft policies
No allowance is made for no claims discount.
Driving Licence: €25 for 10 year licence
Depreciation: Based on kilometres of 16,000 Kilometres per annum, and assuming an economical life of 128,000 Kilometres or eight years
Interest on Capital; Car value if invested at 4.5% per annum.
Garage/Parking: €79.50 per week
AA Subscription: €132 per annum
Petrol: 130.5c per litre (Unleaded)
Engine Oil: Allowance is made for variable consumption throughout the car's life and the cost of replacement after oil changes
Tyres: Estimated tyre life 48,000 kilometres
Servicing: general servicing as recommended by the manufacturers.
Repairs and Replacements: estimated on the basis of total cost of repairs, replacements and renovations over eight years or 128,000 kilometres.
AA fuel prices are based on Petrol, not diesel. Over 80% of the private car fleet in Ireland is currently petrol based. This figure may change as the new CO2-based tax system favours diesel usage.

And the result of all that is a range of values per km as follows:

CO2 Emissions Bands|Band A |Band B |Band C |Band D |Band E |Band F |Band G
a) Car Licence|100|150|290|430|600|1000|2000
b) Insurance|650|790|880|950|1100|1270|1637
c) Driving Licence|3|3|3|3|3|3|3
d) Depreciation|1483|1821|2505|3067|3726|5591|5882
e) Interest on Capital|534|656|902|1104|1341|2013|2118
f) Garage/ Parking|4134|4134|4134|4134|4134|4134|4134
g)NCT|18|18|18|18|18|18|18
h) AA Subscription|132|132|132|132|132|132|132
Euro €|7054|7704|8864|9838|11054|14161|15924
Cost per kilometre (in cents) |Band A |Band B |Band C |Band D |Band E |Band F |Band G
16000|44.09|48.15|55.4|61.49|69.09|88.51|99.53
8000|88.18|96.3|110.8|122.98|138.18|177.01|199.05
24000|29.39|32.1|36.93|40.99|46.06|59|66.35
32000|22.04|24.08|27.7|30.74|34.54|44.25|49.76
Operating Costs|Band A |Band B |Band C |Band D |Band E |Band F |Band G
i) Petrol*|8.62|9.76|10.59|12.36|13.73|14.83|19.13
j) Oil|0.1|0.12|0.15|0.17|0.19|0.2|0.23
k) Tyres|1.32|1.62|1.72|2.36|2.41|2.57|4.99
l) Servicing|1.47|1.94|2.12|2.46|2.55|2.57|3.24
m) Repairs & Replacements|5.73|6|6.32|7.2|8.27|8.89|12.41
Cents|17.24|19.43|20.89|24.55|27.15|29.06|39.99
Total costs per kilometre (Based on 16,000 kilometre) |Band A |Band B |Band C |Band D |Band E |Band F |Band G
Standing Charges|44.09|48.15|55.4|61.49|69.09|88.51|99.53
Operating Costs|17.24|19.43|20.89|24.55|27.15|29.06|39.99
Cents per kilometre|61.33|67.58|76.29|86.04|96.24|117.56|139.52
Return Dublin-Letterkenny|€245.31|€270.32|€305.18|€344.15|€384.96|€470.26|€558.07
Per person (family of 3)|81.77|90.11|101.73|114.72|128.32|156.75|186.02
PP (family of 4)|61.33|67.58|76.29|86.04|96.24|117.56|139.52
PP (family of 5)|49.06|54.06|61.04|68.83|76.99|94.05|111.61

Turns out my figures weren't high at all. Here's the same figures leaving off entirely the parking/garage charge and the AA subscription:

Total costs per kilometre (Based on 16,000 kilometre) |Band A |Band B |Band C |Band D |Band E |Band F |Band G
Standing Charges|17.43|21.49|28.74|34.83|42.43|61.84|72.86
Operating Costs|17.24|19.43|20.89|24.55|27.15|29.06|39.99
Cents per kilometre|34.67|40.92|49.63|59.38|69.58|90.9|112.86
Return Dublin-Letterkenny|€138.66|€163.67|€198.53|€237.5|€278.31|€363.61|€451.42
Per person (family of 3)|46.22|54.56|66.18|79.17|92.77|121.2|150.47
PP (family of 4)|34.67|40.92|49.63|59.38|69.58|90.9|112.86
PP (family of 5)|27.73|32.73|39.71|47.5|55.66|72.72|90.28

The only people for whom it is working out as cheap per person to go by car to Letterkenny as by bus is the family of 5 in a VRT band A car. For everyone else the cost is greater - sometimes much greater.

Funny what happens when you do the figures - but here's the rub. As donegalfella says, you've already got the car, so you're paying the sunk costs (the standing charges) anyway, so here's the costs per km only including the operating costs:

Operating Costs|17.24|19.43|20.89|24.55|27.15|29.06|39.99
Cents per kilometre|17.24|19.43|20.89|24.55|27.15|29.06|39.99
Return Dublin-Letterkenny|68.96|77.72|83.58|98.2|108.61|116.23|159.97
Per person (family of 3)|22.99|25.91|27.86|32.73|36.2|38.74|53.32
PP (family of 4)|17.24|19.43|20.89|24.55|27.15|29.06|39.99
PP (family of 5)|13.79|15.54|16.72|19.64|21.72|23.25|31.99

Finally, now, assuming you're hauling your family of 4 to Letterkenny, it does look cheaper to take the car (assuming it's not band F or G). On the other hand, driving up alone or with one other person, it's never cheaper than the bus.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View · 14-02-2010 01:07AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Well doing nothing and sticking to your core values and principles, is far better than doing a tiny amount (carbon tax and the like which I don't think are good anyway)and betraying your supporters and losing you soul and identity, in my opinion.

Well, that certainly is one opinion. Then again, the problem with it is that you can't change anything from the Opposition benches. If you want change, you need to cross the floor at some point. When you do you have to make compromises. Presumably the point of going into politics is to ultimately effect change.

thebaldsoprano · 14-02-2010 01:11AM

taconnol wrote: »

Can you give some examples? And what exactly the Greens should have done?

Leaving a aside the minor detail that the FF/banking/developer machine conned half the country, they also financed and built lot of environmentally inappropriate schemes, one off housing and similar.

Rather than face up to them, the Green party bailed them out, first through the absurd punt known as the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill and then through NAMA legislation, and in the process conning half the country again.

A few nominal environmental policies hardly compensates for this.

If a new a Green party is founded, I'd hope it will have a broad enough perspective to see the wood from the trees.

IrishTonyO · 14-02-2010 01:11AM

View wrote: »

Well, that certainly is one opinion. Then again, the problem with it is that you can't change anything from the Opposition benches. If you want change, you need to cross the floor at some point. When you do you have to make compromises. Presumably the point of going into politics is to ultimately effect change.

I agree, however you do not tell people that you can do all these things, when you know you can't. And compromises are 2 way, and when a compromise means losing your identity, then in truth you stand for nothing, and cannot be believed when you say anything.

Scofflaw · 14-02-2010 01:18AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

I agree, however you do not tell people that you can do all these things, when you know you can't. And compromises are 2 way, and when a compromise means losing your identity, then in truth you stand for nothing, and cannot be believed when you say anything.

Reducing the identity of the Greens to "won't go into power with FF" is self-evidently incorrect, though, since the party membership voted to do it - and that's the "old" party membership, if one is hung up on the idea that the Green membership have also somehow been replaced.

Either way, this is about an alternative Green Party - I take it your sole suggestion for any alternative Green Party is that they not go into power with Fianna Fáil, although the only party for which we can actually guarantee that is Fine Gael.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Macha · 14-02-2010 01:20AM

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Leaving a aside the minor detail that the FF/banking/developer machine conned half the country, they also financed and built lot of environmentally inappropriate schemes, one off housing and similar.

Rather than face up to them, the Green party bailed them out, first through the absurd punt known as the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill and then through NAMA legislation, and in the process conning half the country again.

The Green Party members voted in favour of NAMA. Who exactly is the official guard of Green Party core beliefs, if not the members? Are you saying that you are a better decider of Green Party policy and what is and isn't compatible with its core beliefs than the members themselves?

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

A few nominal environmental policies hardly compensates for this.

Total rubbish. Plenty of significant environmental policies have been brought in and I am so tired of the claims that nothing has been done. Come and work in the environmental sector for 6 months like I do and try to say the same thing.

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

If a new a Green party is founded, I'd hope it will have a broad enough perspective to see the wood from the trees.

And I'd hope that the Irish electorate were mature enough to understand the practicalities of coalition government but we don't all get what we wish for.

A future Green Party would be even smaller than the existing Green Party and therefore, if it were ever to get into power, would have even less power than the current Green Party. It would quite necessarily have to severely compromise its ideals and we would find ourselves right back here listening to claims of how the party had sold its soul to the devil, etc etc ad nauseum.

Scofflaw · 14-02-2010 01:29AM

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Leaving a aside the minor detail that the FF/banking/developer machine conned half the country, they also financed and built lot of environmentally inappropriate schemes, one off housing and similar.

Rather than face up to them, the Green party bailed them out, first through the absurd punt known as the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Bill and then through NAMA legislation, and in the process conning half the country again.

A few nominal environmental policies hardly compensates for this.

If a new a Green party is founded, I'd hope it will have a broad enough perspective to see the wood from the trees.

Again, though, while a lot of people complain about NAMA and the support for the banks, there don't seem to be a lot of other options on offer from anyone else, and both NAMA and the bank supports are required as a result of the policies of the previous decade. (Nor does NAMA bail out the developers - it bails out the banks.)

A lot of the complaints against the current party, I have to say, appear to be the result of them going into government at all with anyone but a rainbow coalition of ABFF parties. That's a fair charge if your only interest in the Greens is that they're not Fianna Fáil, but is otherwise pretty meaningless. Fine Gael were supposed to win the last election - but they didn't. They're supposed to win the next election - but it was supposed to have happened by now (hence George Lee's pique), and the auguries aren't looking all that good.

Fianna Fáil have been in power for most of the lifetime of this state - unless one's sole raison d'etre as a political party is not being Fianna Fáil, or in order to enjoy politics without the responsibilities of government, there isn't an option but to go into coalition with them at some point - and looking at the ever-increasing mess that prosperity under Fianna Fáil was making of the Irish environment, the Greens couldn't afford to wait. As it turned out, the economy went into reverse, and now they're left holding the toxic lovechild of Fianna Fáil and the PDs - but it was the right decision at the time, and more importantly, it was the democratic decision of the whole party.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View · 14-02-2010 01:46AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

I agree, however you do not tell people that you can do all these things, when you know you can't.

Well, since there was (almost) no chance the Greens were going to form a majority government then it would follow the Greens should have told people little if anything at all. Their manifesto would have consisted of a blank page in that case!

Personally, I have always regarded manifestos as statements of what the parties would like to do rather than binding contracts.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

And compromises are 2 way, and when a compromise means losing your identity, then in truth you stand for nothing, and cannot be believed when you say anything.

I am not sure the Greens have lost their identity. I'd say their identity has changed. Even if the economy was wonderful and they got most of their way on most issues, the Green's identity would, and should, have changed as a result of being in Government.

Obviously opinions vary about the changes to their identity...

Time for an 'alternative' Green Party?

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