Time to Tax the Rich

Guell72 · 06-02-2010 12:46PM

WalterMitty wrote: »

They are still far better off than private sector equivalent here and the person doing their job in most other EU countries.

How can you say that when you dont even know what their job is, or the rate that that job would pay in other countries?
Oh, and last I checked we live and work in Ireland, not some random EU country.
More random begrudgery. Boards stinks of it.

So what if someone makes more money than you. Get over it. Make career choices that will bring you up instead of trying to bring others down.

Begrudgery is an Irish sickness. Its worse than swine flu. Its pathetic. Listen to yourselves.

Tax begrudgery. Make an absolute fortune in Ireland. Probably 90% of the begrudgery tax take could be taken from a few members on boards.

A couple of the guys I work with were on a rant at lunch yesterday giving out about this and that. I had to laugh. 2 Guys on over 80K each with 25 days holidays, company car, 10 - 20% bonus, free VHI for them and their families, free company doctor, 10% salary paid into pension by company, 7 hour working day, meal allowance of €120 a month. and much more.
And they are giving out about others because they have been asked to take a pay cut of 5%. I told them to grow a pair and refuse the cut and call the company's bluff. If they are any good at their jobs they will get another easily. But it was easier for them to complain about others than deal with their own shortcomings.

WalterMitty · 06-02-2010 02:43PM

Guell72 wrote: »

How can you say that when you dont even know what their job is, or the rate that that job would pay in other countries?
Oh, and last I checked we live and work in Ireland, not some random EU country.
More random begrudgery. Boards stinks of it.

So what if someone makes more money than you. Get over it. Make career choices that will bring you up instead of trying to bring others down.

Begrudgery is an Irish sickness. Its worse than swine flu. Its pathetic. Listen to yourselves.

Tax begrudgery. Make an absolute fortune in Ireland. Probably 90% of the begrudgery tax take could be taken from a few members on boards.

A couple of the guys I work with were on a rant at lunch yesterday giving out about this and that. I had to laugh. 2 Guys on over 80K each with 25 days holidays, company car, 10 - 20% bonus, free VHI for them and their families, free company doctor, 10% salary paid into pension by company, 7 hour working day, meal allowance of €120 a month. and much more.
And they are giving out about others because they have been asked to take a pay cut of 5%. I told them to grow a pair and refuse the cut and call the company's bluff. If they are any good at their jobs they will get another easily. But it was easier for them to complain about others than deal with their own shortcomings.

Official stats from CSO and Eurostat prove my contention. Garda here gets much more than EU average as do most other public sector jobs. The public sector use their power to extort above market rates for their positions . It is relevant to compare us to other EU countries as we are in an moneatry union with many european countries and the more expensive our public sector are the higehr the burden on the wealth creating sector of economy and the less services that can be provided.
We spend more per capita on health than the excellent french system yet our system is much worse because SALARIES eat up all the resources. Get real, it's not begrudgery to want your taxes to be spent in an efficient and effective manner, and looking at Euro area i can see that aint happening. We are not a rich country and cannot afford to keep our public/semi sector workers among the best paid in Europe, its not fair on rest of society. These high public/semi public sector costs also drive up costs in rest of economy.

namenotavailablE · 06-02-2010 03:20PM

We spend more per capita on health than the excellent French system

You may have more recent statistics than I have but that statement seems to be incorrect according to the following (taken from the WHO database).The statistics refer to the data available for the timeframe 2005-2008.

Per capita expenditure on health at average exchange rate:

France $4,056
Ireland $3,888

Count Dooku · 06-02-2010 04:41PM

namenotavailabl wrote: »

You may have more recent statistics than I have but that statement seems to be incorrect according to the following (taken from the WHO database).The statistics refer to the data available for the timeframe 2005-2008.

Per capita expenditure on health at average exchange rate:

France $4,056
Ireland $3,888

Probably it should mean that we spend more on overpaid staff then France and much less spend on beds in hospitals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4223425/Britain-has-fewer-hospital-beds-than-Lithuania-and-Hungary.html

The number of hospital beds per 100,000 inhabitants

Germany 829.1
Czech Republic 817.0
Lithuania 801.0
Hungary 792.1
Austria 770.9
Latvia 755.4
France 707.5
Finland 695.6
Belgium 672.3
Slovakia 671.4
Romania 658.6
Poland 647.5
Bulgaria 621.4
Luxembourg 569.4
Estonia 565.3
Switzerland 555.6
Croatia 545.0
Ireland 524.7
Slovenia 477.5
Greece 473.8
Macedonia 463.1

Permabear · 06-02-2010 05:18PM

This post has been deleted.

Guell72 · 06-02-2010 06:01PM

WalterMitty wrote: »

Official stats from CSO and Eurostat prove my contention. Garda here gets much more than EU average as do most other public sector jobs. The public sector use their power to extort above market rates for their positions . It is relevant to compare us to other EU countries as we are in an moneatry union with many european countries and the more expensive our public sector are the higehr the burden on the wealth creating sector of economy and the less services that can be provided.
We spend more per capita on health than the excellent french system yet our system is much worse because SALARIES eat up all the resources. Get real, it's not begrudgery to want your taxes to be spent in an efficient and effective manner, and looking at Euro area i can see that aint happening. We are not a rich country and cannot afford to keep our public/semi sector workers among the best paid in Europe, its not fair on rest of society. These high public/semi public sector costs also drive up costs in rest of economy.

Wow.
Imagine how much revenue would earn of you if there were a begrudger tax.

Permabear · 06-02-2010 06:10PM

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 06-02-2010 07:14PM

Guell72 wrote: »

Wow.
Imagine how much revenue would earn of you if there were a begrudger tax.

imagine how much more money we have if whats already collected is spend wiser?

irishh_bob · 06-02-2010 09:43PM

Guell72 wrote: »

Wow.
Imagine how much revenue would earn of you if there were a begrudger tax.

or how large a source of revenue you would be if thier was a tax on naff comments

amen · 06-02-2010 09:43PM

Now, now. We Irish are fortunate to have the best medical consultants that Sudan can provide.

thats a great point.

Drop the salary of consultans by 30%. If the Irish consultants want to leave to go else where let them. Let the non national doctors stay and take the jobs(yes I realise we would be taking them from poorer third world countries)

Out of interest does anyone know how many NCHD are non national and how many consultants are non national?

flutered · 06-02-2010 10:26PM

i happened to be accompanying a relative who was seeing a consultant at the regional hospital limerick, the consultant himself (mr john drumm) had to wheel a piece of equipment from one room to another i think that is above and beyond the call of duty, there was a few nurses about but that seemed not to be in their remit, if equipment is scarce surely the consultant should be the last person to wheel it about.

Guell72 · 07-02-2010 12:11AM

irishh_bob wrote: »

or how large a source of revenue you would be if thier was a tax on naff comments

And there should be a massive the tax on pensioner haters too.

P. Breathnach · 07-02-2010 12:13AM

flutered wrote: »

i happened to be accompanying a relative who was seeing a consultant at the regional hospital limerick, the consultant himself (mr john drumm) had to wheel a piece of equipment from one room to another i think that is above and beyond the call of duty, there was a few nurses about but that seemed not to be in their remit, if equipment is scarce surely the consultant should be the last person to wheel it about.

If the equipment is needed and the consultant is able to get it for himself, why shouldn't he? Clearly he himself didn't see a problem with doing it.

irishh_bob · 07-02-2010 08:27PM

Guell72 wrote: »

And there should be a massive the tax on pensioner haters too.

case rested

MrsNY · 09-02-2010 01:40PM

WalterMitty wrote: »

They are still far better off than private sector equivalent here and the person doing their job in most other EU countries.

But isnt this a non-arguement?
First of all what is the private ector equivalent of a Garda or ambulance driver etc etc
That arguement goes on ad nauseum.

Plus and this is the reality - we would ALL be worse off salary wise in other EU countries!
I know for a fact I would. It would be impossible to live in this country on the equivalent wage I'd get in say the UK.

Sleepy · 09-02-2010 01:54PM

flutered wrote: »

i happened to be accompanying a relative who was seeing a consultant at the regional hospital limerick, the consultant himself (mr john drumm) had to wheel a piece of equipment from one room to another i think that is above and beyond the call of duty, there was a few nurses about but that seemed not to be in their remit, if equipment is scarce surely the consultant should be the last person to wheel it about.

If the consultant was spending a significant amount of time running around the hospital looking for equipment I can see how it might be considered a mis-use of resources but if roles are demarcated to the extent where a porter has to be called to move a piece of equipment 30/40 feet it's time whoever's allowing that situation to continue is dragged out back and put down.

Sleepy · 09-02-2010 01:56PM

MrsNY wrote: »

But isnt this a non-arguement?
First of all what is the private ector equivalent of a Garda or ambulance driver etc etc
That arguement goes on ad nauseum.

Plus and this is the reality - we would ALL be worse off salary wise in other EU countries!
I know for a fact I would. It would be impossible to live in this country on the equivalent wage I'd get in say the UK.

The whole issue should be a non-argument. We don't have the money to pay the wage bill of the public sector. So, paycuts, redundancies and other cost-saving measures (Cutting of O/T, Benefits, Allowances etc.) should all be used until we have current expenditure down to a manageable level.

MrsNY · 09-02-2010 02:11PM

But sure thats what is being done except for redundancies and it looks like they will be next. Like overtime went last year, they are paying extra tax and have had a pay cut. I dont know what the story is with allowances as I have only spoken to one of my friends who is apublic servant about it all and I know she has no allowance in her job, its just a salary and that is it.
Apparently people are retiring by the new time and as they wont be replaced that is cutting numbers.

I think the Government will have to come up with a better plan than just cutting wages particularly for the lower paid. Like it is easy enough for those of us who dont work there to say that wages should be cut when it doesnt affect us. We all pay taxes so they are paying as much towards their own wages and Social Welfare as the rest of us.

Sleepy · 09-02-2010 02:47PM

The government are nowhere near to bringing the public sector paybill in line MrsNY.

The unions obstinancy is also making it next to impossible for them to make the cuts efficiently. With the freedom to make redundancies and cut salaries to reasonable levels where they wished the government could target these cuts so as to minimise the impact on the level of service provision.

They could fire the wasters (without golden handshakes), make redundancies where they exist, cut salaries on the over-paid and leave those providing genuine value for money alone instead of having to cut everyone's salary by a rudimentary percentage. Using retirements to cut numbers is completely indiscriminate and is leaving some areas starved of staff whilst others remain over-staffed and many quangos which have become unaffordable luxuries still in existence.

Income tax from the Public sector is nothing more than an accounting trick. Their employer is the same entity as the tax collector so in effect, the state is paying itself income tax.

kippy · 09-02-2010 03:20PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Income tax from the Public sector is nothing more than an accounting trick. Their employer is the same entity as the tax collector so in effect, the state is paying itself income tax.

I think people realise this.
But you got to concede that increasing income taxation reduces the public service pay bill.....in that it doesnt cost the state as much to employ them as they are getting more back in tax.

I do agree with the gist of your post, I would much rather see the lazy wasters get cut completely from the paybill and pay the rest based on performance, but thats neither likely nor possible with the country run the way it is.

Riskymove · 09-02-2010 03:28PM

kippy wrote: »

I think people realise this.
But you got to concede that increasing income taxation reduces the public service pay bill.....in that it doesnt cost the state as much to employ them as they are getting more back in tax.

absolutely, a tax increase also reduces the cost of the public sector;

a lot of people throw the €20bn public pay bill figure around without acknowledging that a good wedge of that never really goes anywhere, and a large proportion of the rest also comes back to the exchequer

edanto · 09-02-2010 03:43PM

(just to add in a link that posters in this thread might be interested in)

Can you get 3 out of 3 questions right about Irish Income tax?

Q1 - Does the average millionaire pay a higher or lower tax rate than the average worker?

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

Sleepy · 09-02-2010 03:53PM

edanto wrote: »

(just to add in a link that posters in this thread might be interested in)

Can you get 3 out of 3 questions right about Irish Income tax?

Q1 - Does the average millionaire pay a higher or lower tax rate than the average worker?

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

I managed one out of three...

was out on questions 1 and 3.

thebman · 09-02-2010 03:56PM

Riskymove wrote: »

a lot of people throw the €20bn public pay bill figure around without acknowledging that a good wedge of that never really goes anywhere, and a large proportion of the rest also comes back to the exchequer

This is true and makes social welfare spending look appalling if taken into account TBH especially for the years we had very little unemployment.

Where did all the welfare money go? 20 billion on a hundred thousand unemployed goes a long way. Hell 20 billion on 500,000 goes a long way. I can tell you its not people on welfare getting the billions each year so where does it disappear.

The whole area must have some very dark secrets just like FAS as nobody asks questions like what is the money actually spent on that doesn't get given to people in welfare payments and administration.

Riskymove · 09-02-2010 04:12PM

thebman wrote: »

Where did all the welfare money go? 20 billion on a hundred thousand unemployed goes a long way. Hell 20 billion on 500,000 goes a long way. I can tell you its not people on welfare getting the billions each year so where does it disappear.

social welfare has many. many schemes...its a mistake to consider it only as unemployment benefits

for a start there are the old-age pension schemes etc ; then child benefit and so on

Amhran Nua · 09-02-2010 04:36PM

Riskymove wrote: »

a lot of people throw the €20bn public pay bill figure around without acknowledging that a good wedge of that never really goes anywhere, and a large proportion of the rest also comes back to the exchequer

Doesn't matter, as the tax take from the public sector is added to the total.

thebman · 09-02-2010 04:37PM

Riskymove wrote: »

social welfare has many. many schemes...its a mistake to consider it only as unemployment benefits

for a start there are the old-age pension schemes etc ; then child benefit and so on

Even so 20 billion even if you include administration (wages) is not going to ordinary citizens.

There seems to be extraordinary waste there somewhere. Don't know where you'd start to look though.

kippy · 09-02-2010 04:44PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Doesn't matter, as the tax take from the public sector is added to the total.

What do you mean? That the 20 billion is the gross pay cost of the public sector?
If that is the case, the gross pay cost doesnt change with increased taxation, however the actual (Net cost) to the state reduces with higher income taxation.

Income taxt levels DO MATTER and while many are happy to discount them from conversations (as everyon has to pay them) they are still a method of cutting costs for public sector pay.

Riskymove · 09-02-2010 04:45PM

thebman wrote: »

Even so 20 billion even if you include administration (wages) is not going to ordinary citizens.

There seems to be extraordinary waste there somewhere. Don't know where you'd start to look though.

the €20bn does not include admin wages; its all schemes/payments etc

it comes from many different sources not just the Department of social welfare(e.g. health etc) to be turned into one overall figure

Sleepy · 09-02-2010 04:48PM

While income tax rises would reduce a public sector workers take-home pay it doesn't affect their pension entitlements so it (like the pension levy) wouldn't be a pay-cut.

Time to Tax the Rich

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