Loading bay with no sign up to indicate active times....

tatli_lokma · 18-01-2010 09:22PM #1

Hi all,

hoping someone can help. I parked in a loading bay on Saturday. Fair enough it was a loading bay, but i didn't realise that til after. what I did look out for was the signs that indicate the times and days the parking restrictions are in operation. In this case, I thought I was free to park as there was no sign up (road markings designating a loading bay were very faded, and with the other cars parked on the narrow street, it wasn't clear that it was a loading bay). Came back 20 mins later and had been clamped. i had to pay to be released and was told I need to put it in writing if I want to contest it.

My question to you all is - if there is no sign up to indicate the operational times of an area, are you still liable if you park there?

I have checked DCC's site and it says:

No parking during the hours indicated on the street sign. This usually lasts from 7.00am to 7.00pm, Monday to Saturday

When I went around and checked the area (while I was waiting on the clampers to come back!) some of the loading bays in the area were mon-fri, others mon-sat, so its not like you could assume which was "usual". They clearly mention the street sign in their website, but no sign was in place (probably nicked by some local gurriers! lol)

given the sign was missing I am hoping I have some case for getting a refund (I have photos of the pole missing the sign).

Right next to me in another loading bay, which WAS clearly sign posted, there were 3 cars there since before I arrived and none of them clamped. Of course this got my goat, but what can you do!

anyone, got any advice on my chances? anyone been in a similar situation?

Pacing Mule · 18-01-2010 11:10PM

AFAIK a loading bay is a loading bay 24 hours.

dudara · 19-01-2010 12:45AM

Better suited to Commuting & Transport (perhaps)

Moved accordingly.

dudara

Victor · 19-01-2010 01:03AM

I imagine they are 24x7 unless otherwise indicated. The sign is the road marking. About the only argument you have is that the signage is faded, which is rather weak.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0181.html

S.I. No. 181/1997 &#8212 wrote: »

"loading bay" means that portion of a road indicated by means of a traffic sign on which, at certain times, a vehicle, other than a goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading, shall not be parked;

Loading Bay
16. Traffic sign number RRM 009 shall—
(a) indicate a loading bay, and
(b) consist of the word "LOADING" written in white, once or more than once, accompanied by two end lines, being continuous white lines at right angles to the edge of the roadway, each such line being approximately 100 millimetres wide and extending from the edge of the roadway towards its centre, and broken white lines measuring 450 millimetres in length and 450 millimetres apart, between the word "LOADING" and each of the end lines.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

S.I. No. 182/1997 &#8212 wrote: »

Parking in Loading Bays
42. (1) Where traffic sign number RRM 009 [Loading Bay] is provided, a vehicle other than a goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading shall not be parked during a period which shall be indicated on an information plate.
(2) A goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading shall not be parked in a loading bay for a period exceeding 30 minutes.

Cookie_Monster · 19-01-2010 09:55AM

Take pictures of the bay, send to clampers / council point out no sign (post) detailing operating times and see what happens.

Why would loading bays be 24/7? makes no sense, most if not all I've seen a business hours + a little bit ie 7am-7pm mon to fri/sat

Ham'nd'egger · 19-01-2010 11:24AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Take pictures of the bay, send to clampers / council point out no sign (post) detailing operating times and see what happens.

Why would loading bays be 24/7? makes no sense, most if not all I've seen a business hours + a little bit ie 7am-7pm mon to fri/sat

I would be interested in what time OP parked their car and what location was it. Some loading bays are taxi ranks at night, that's the only other specified use I can think of.

corktina · 19-01-2010 11:29AM

yes it sounds like it might be during the day on a saturday in which case he hasnt a leg to stand on I guess.

loading bays are widely abused in Cork with service vehicles being the worst offenders (eircom, ESB etc) and rarely do the wardens take any notice it seems.

Cookie_Monster · 19-01-2010 12:10PM

corktina wrote: »

yes it sounds like it might be during the day on a saturday in which case he hasnt a leg to stand on I guess.

loading bays are widely abused in Cork with service vehicles being the worst offenders (eircom, ESB etc) and rarely do the wardens take any notice it seems.

eircom / esb would be commercial vehicles though wouldn't they so the wardens assume (rightly/wrongly) that they are delivering, which given the nature of the business they probably aren't

corktina · 19-01-2010 12:23PM

my point in a nutshell...they arent loading and are thus illegally parked

JHMEG · 19-01-2010 12:23PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why would loading bays be 24/7? makes no sense,

It does make sense as it allows deliveries to be made out of hours.

24-hour bus lanes in Dublin, now they make no sense.

corktina · 19-01-2010 12:33PM

neither do rush hour only bus lanes when you think of it....(a little secret in Cork that noone but me seesm to know and I have a whole lane to myself most of the day.

jor el · 19-01-2010 02:55PM

You parked in a loading bay, and got clamped for it. You can't really contest that. If you assumed, or presumed, that it would be OK to park there because there was no sign, then you were wrong. If there's no street sign, then you should have assumed it meant no parking at all, and not parking allowed when I think it should be allowed.

Apart from learning a hard lesson, nothing else can come from this.

dollybird2 · 19-01-2010 03:00PM

I wouldn't hold my breath for a refund if I were you.

Loading bays are for loading/unloading purposes with a max stay time limit during the hours given in the road sign. After this many become clearways, which don't allow parking at any time. If this is the case there is generally a sign provided to show this (white background with a red X)

BrianD · 19-01-2010 03:06PM

JHMEG wrote: »

24-hour bus lanes in Dublin, now they make no sense.

they make perfect sense. Most 24hr lanes were hard shoulders before hand so of no use to traffic so. Even if they weren't, the demand for road space outside of 7 to 7 is such that having the use of lane irrelevant. Unless of course you are one of those people who like to spped down them, undertake people ....

cruizer101 · 19-01-2010 03:10PM

jor el wrote: »

You parked in a loading bay, and got clamped for it. You can't really contest that. If you assumed, or presumed, that it would be OK to park there because there was no sign, then you were wrong. If there's no street sign, then you should have assumed it meant no parking at all, and not parking allowed when I think it should be allowed.

Apart from learning a hard lesson, nothing else can come from this.

The OP said:" Fair enough it was a loading bay, but i didn't realise that til after"

They didn't assume they were allowed to park there because was out of hours or anything, they simply thought it was a parking spot. Fair enough you could make the argument they should have checked more thoroughly, but it would seem the OP made a genuine mistake.

OP I doubt you will be able to appeal it but no harm in trying.

Cookie_Monster · 19-01-2010 06:34PM

dollybird2 wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath for a refund if I were you.

Loading bays are for loading/unloading purposes with a max stay time limit during the hours given in the road sign. After this many become clearways, which don't allow parking at any time. If this is the case there is generally a sign provided to show this (white background with a red X)

and many (I would say most) become car park spaces...

tatli_lokma · 19-01-2010 09:51PM

all, I am aware that purposely parking in a loading bay during its operational hours is a no-no, but my query is in regards to how this can be enforced if there is no clear indication that it is a loading bay, it is at the weekend, and no sign exists to indicate its operational hours. Again I refer to Dublin city councils own site which says:

No parking during the hours indicated on the street sign. This usually lasts from 7.00am to 7.00pm, Monday to Saturday

If there is no sign, then what is the story?

And as amother poster pointed out, I did not ignore the fact it was a loading bay and choose to park there regardless, the fact that it was a loading bay was not clear. I was looking for the signs indicating parking times (as some of the streets in that area are free parking after 1400 hrs), spotted a street with no signage, and like others on the street assumed (wrongly but understandably) that it was a street free to park. (there are a couple of free parking streets in that area). When I got back I was shocked and indignant to find I was clamped, and again walked up and down the street to see where the restriction signs were. It was only when I walked ahead of my car that I spotted under another car a faded 'loading bay' markings on the ground. This is a one way, narrow street, so it would not be possible to see up ahead what is marked on the ground. I was also peed off to find that I was clamped when others weren't, and others in clearly marked loading bays were not clamped! I was literally gone for less than 30 mins!

All the businesses were closed on that street, there was no 'no parking' notices outside any of the premises. This area would be a Mon-Fri business area and is a ghost town on a Saturday.
No parking during the hours indicated on the street sign. This usually lasts from 7.00am to 7.00pm, Monday to Saturday

Victor · 19-01-2010 09:59PM

Cincikchick wrote: »

No parking during the hours indicated on the street sign. This usually lasts from 7.00am to 7.00pm, Monday to Saturday

A useful aide, not the law. I have quoted the law above.

Now, either make an appeal based on what you consider defective markings or not.

Carawaystick · 20-01-2010 12:40AM

I think what Victor has posted is germane to your appeal

consist of the word "LOADING" written

If any of the lettering in the word loading is absent, then the lettering is not exactly as the legislation is written.
like if there was a gap in the letters, especially O, A, N it wouldn't spell loading beyond reasonable doubt which is the threshold required for a criminal prosecution such as breaking a law entails.

also again as Victor pointed out section 42 (1) of SI 182 of '97 says the information must be provided on an information plate, which was absent and therefore the prohibition doesn't apply.

PCPhoto · 20-01-2010 12:54AM

i dont understand the point of this thread ...... you parked in a loading bay ... got clamped (genuine error ...or chancing your arm due to what you think is bad maintenance by council)

you tell your story to clampers - they tell you to appeal it and ....... (here's where it goes wrong)

you run to the computer to tell your story ..... why not just appeal the bloody thing and find out instead of jumping online asking people for their opinion - people online will quote you loads of different things - from telling you that most of not all loading bays become clearways outside operational hours to most if not all loading bays become parking spaces outside operational hours

you can argue all day that you were wrong to park there - you noted "Faded" markings which indicated loading bay, from reading it I've formed the opinion you know the general area and were chancing your arm - due to the "missing" sign, the clampers involved will have made a note of your arguement and they told you to appeal....so go write your letter of appeal and wait to find out.

Ps. I do hope you get the money back - 'cos I hate clampers - mainly due to the "guilty until proved innocent" appeals process - you have to pay first then appeal it

tatli_lokma · 20-01-2010 07:57PM

PCPhoto wrote: »

i dont understand the point of this thread ...... you parked in a loading bay ... got clamped (genuine error ...or chancing your arm due to what you think is bad maintenance by council)

you tell your story to clampers - they tell you to appeal it and ....... (here's where it goes wrong)

you run to the computer to tell your story ..... why not just appeal the bloody thing and find out instead of jumping online asking people for their opinion - people online will quote you loads of different things - from telling you that most of not all loading bays become clearways outside operational hours to most if not all loading bays become parking spaces outside operational hours

you can argue all day that you were wrong to park there - you noted "Faded" markings which indicated loading bay, from reading it I've formed the opinion you know the general area and were chancing your arm - due to the "missing" sign, the clampers involved will have made a note of your arguement and they told you to appeal....so go write your letter of appeal and wait to find out.

Ps. I do hope you get the money back - 'cos I hate clampers - mainly due to the "guilty until proved innocent" appeals process - you have to pay first then appeal it

PCPhoto, thanks for the reply, but I find it a bit contradictory that a boards user (with over 2000 posts!) scorns the fact that someone came on boards to seek advice/suggestions????

I have my appeal ready to go - that was done yesterday. Before sending in the appeal I sought some advice and suggestions from the boardsies, because whilst yes you do get differing comments, you also get some very helpful info and advice which is beneficial - such as that indicated by carawaystick. I will now use the advice of carrawaystick to strengthen my appeal.

You're right I do kind of know the area, but not so well as to know each street and which is free parking and which is not. There are several in the area that allow parking on Saturdays, some have no restrictions, and still further some that recently have had their restrictions changed from Mon-Sat to Mon-Fri, others have had Mon-Sat 7-7 changed to sat free parking from 2pm. This has all happened since Christmas, and this is why I was consciously looking for a 'safe' spot.
The 'loading' markings are not complete and this is clear from my photos, also because the street is narrow some of the cars were parked obscuring the road markings, so it wasn't clear it was a loading bay. There was no pay station on that street, so I knew it wasn't pay and display. I assumed (wrongly) that with nothing to indicate otherwise I could park there. I wasn't 'chancing' my arm, I was parking where I thought I was allowed. TBH if I wanted to chance my arm I would have been better off parking in another loading bay around the corner because there were 4 cars there from before me, and still there after I was clamped! Jammy feckers!

GoldenEarring · 20-01-2010 08:03PM

Hi,
About a year ago I parked in a clearway on Westmoreland St. The little red circle was missing from the sign beside which my car was parked. I appealed (wrote a real stinker) and yes I got a refund!! I had taken pics on my mobile and submitted them with the letter. Good luck.

Victor · 20-01-2010 08:23PM

PCPhoto wrote: »

Ps. I do hope you get the money back - 'cos I hate clampers - mainly due to the "guilty until proved innocent" appeals process - you have to pay first then appeal it

How much is the fee? http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Parking/Clamping/Pages/ParkingAppeal.aspx

tatli_lokma · 20-01-2010 09:55PM

Victor wrote: »

How much is the fee? http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/Parking/Clamping/Pages/ParkingAppeal.aspx

to get your car released you have to pay the fine, regardless. I think this is what PCPhoto is referring to. They basically hold your car to ransom!
I do know of someone who was clamped for parking on a taxi rank, when they WERE A TAXI! the clamper freely admitted that it was an error on their part, but he STILL had to pay the €80 to have it released and then appeal it for his money back. He did get the money back eventually, but had to wait weeks and weeks and write letters etc etc.......

Blanchguy · 20-01-2010 10:46PM

Definitely appeal. If the sign was missing and some other loading bays in the area are Mon-Fri I'd say you have a pretty good chance.

Victor · 20-01-2010 11:54PM

Cincikchick wrote: »

I do know of someone who was clamped for parking on a taxi rank, when they WERE A TAXI! the clamper freely admitted that it was an error on their part, but he STILL had to pay the €80 to have it released and then appeal it for his money back. He did get the money back eventually, but had to wait weeks and weeks and write letters etc etc.......

Interesting. Taxis in ranks are meant to be attended at all times. Its a taxi rank, not a taxi parking place. So how was he clamped without him noticing?

D.McC · 18-03-2010 05:07AM

All clampers on the first day of their training :eek:(yes they do receive training) :rolleyes:are taught ‘Lines & Signs’. Both of which have to be present in order for a parking offence to have been committed!

So, the OP might stand a very good chance of winning an appeal. With regard to the other cars parked on loading bays. They may have already been clamped and released. The drivers of these vehicles are then allowed to remain in situ for a set period of time before any action can be taking. But as is normally the case, clampers try not to clamp the same car twice in the one day.

Lately the council have introduced Loading Bays / Taxi Ranks, which are Loading Bays 07.00/19.00 Mon-Sat and Taxi Ranks at all other times in an effort to supply additional rank places to taxis (who have complained, that due too increased numberes they’re aren’t enough spaces).

The other post about a Taxi been clamped on a rank is correct. A lot of taxi drivers see these spaces as their own private (and free) parking, so they can get a bit of shopping in with the misses.

Taxi’s can only remain unattended at a rank for a limited time, after that they are deemed to be parked and enforcement action is taken.

tatli_lokma · 18-03-2010 10:38AM

D.McC wrote: »

All clampers on the first day of their training :eek:(yes they do receive training) :rolleyes:are taught ‘Lines & Signs’. Both of which have to be present in order for a parking offence to have been committed!

So, the OP might stand a very good chance of winning an appeal. With regard to the other cars parked on loading bays. They may have already been clamped and released. The drivers of these vehicles are then allowed to remain in situ for a set period of time before any action can be taking. But as is normally the case, clampers try not to clamp the same car twice in the one day.

Lately the council have introduced Loading Bays / Taxi Ranks, which are Loading Bays 07.00/19.00 Mon-Sat and Taxi Ranks at all other times in an effort to supply additional rank places to taxis (who have complained, that due too increased numberes they’re aren’t enough spaces).

The other post about a Taxi been clamped on a rank is correct. A lot of taxi drivers see these spaces as their own private (and free) parking, so they can get a bit of shopping in with the misses.

Taxi’s can only remain unattended at a rank for a limited time, after that they are deemed to be parked and enforcement action is taken.

thanks for that - I have already submitted the appeal, got a letter to confirm receipt, but still waiting on a response to the actual appeal.

As for the taxi situation, there was no case of parking while the missus went shopping at all. In this case the taxi driver was called to a pick up at a hospital, parked at the end of a rank outside the hospital entrance, told the other drivers and security they were just popping inside to notify them he was there. The lady he was to pick up was waiting for him, but being very elderly was very slow on her feet, so it took him a few minutes to walk her to the car. He escorted her to the taxi, and literally minutes before he got there the clampers had arrived and were ready to put on the clamp. The other taxi drivers on the rank and the security all explained that he had literally just 5 mins ago gone inside to collect a fare, that he wasn't parked etc. One of the clamper guys didn't care, the other seemed more reasonable, but nonetheless they issued the clamp. They didn't even have time to get the clamp on before the driver came back, but the ticket had been issued. As a 'favour' they didn't put on the clamp (so he wouldn't have to wait for another van to come and take it off), but he still had to pay the fine or they would have put the clamp on. He had to ring up, pay the fine and while he was waiting for that to go through he had to give the fare to one of the other drivers on the rank. The nice clamper was very apologetic and acknowledged they were a bit quick off the mark in assuming he had parked there. The other driver kept saying that for all he knew the taxi man could've been having his lunch in the hospital! Anyway, all in all, he did appeal and given the circumstances got his money back, but regardless he should not have had to go to all that hassle.

Also in the area I parked, within the space of three weeks they changed the parking times three times! First it was available after 2pm on Sat, then it was mon-sun 7-7, now its mon-sat 7-7! they don't seem to be able to make up their minds! and the missing sign from 'my' loading bay is still missing, as are the road markings! It doesn't say LOADING it says L D NG!

D.McC · 19-03-2010 12:15AM

I assumed the case you speak off happened on a public highway and not in private grounds.

(Sorry, I should have confirmed this with you).

The local council can change the ‘paid’ times of parking as and when they deem necessary, the exception to this would be the odd time they consult with local residents with regard too some extended parking times such as the few 24hr parking and the others with paid parking up too midnight.

The onus is always on the driver to ensure they park legally.

Granted, in this particular instance the Taxi Driver was collecting his fare. But this is not always the case!

It seems odd, that the clampers didn’t apply the clamp as a favour, but still insisted the driver pay the fine. :eek: The clamp is used as a means to ensure prompt payment of the infringement, so in this case there was no onus on the driver to remain in the area and pay a fine.

The other issue with this case is the clamp and ticket must be issued together. In other words the clamp cannot be locked until the ticket has been issued (printed from husky machine). If the driver returns to the vehicle before either is ready, then the vehicle must be released. Even if the clamp is semi applied or the ticket is printed.

I suspect I know the hospital and area in involved, and cannot help thinking that maybe the Taxi had inadvertently parked in the Disabled Persons Parking area which adjoins the Taxi Rank at the entrance to the hospital.

Loading bay with no sign up to indicate active times....

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