Work for the dole

AARRRGH · 29-12-2009 05:40PM #1

I know this topic gets mentioned every now and then in various threads, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Why don't we have a "work for the dole" scheme in Ireland? It would have many positives, such as:

It would provide man power for the many unpopular jobs such as cleaning the streets, cleaning windows, emptying bins, cutting grass, etc.
Employers could hire these people for "free" or possibly for the price of the dole or a percentage of it. This would help people get proper experience while keeping their dole payments. It may also reduce the social welfare bill if employers have to contribute some or all of the employees dole payment.
It would interrupt the lives of the long-term dole scammers, forcing them to consider getting a "proper", better paying job. There are a few advantages to this, two big ones being the removal of people from the dole register, and removing the gross unfairness which is people being able to spend their lives on the dole.
It would eradicate the sponger mentality which is generational at this stage, and would force people to have some sort of work ethic which would be passed on to their children; no longer would it be seen as abnormal to have a job.
It would also motivate people to get educated as they would quickly realise a good education means a better wage.
Ireland would no longer be seen as a soft touch when it comes to social welfare, and scamming the system would become difficult as you couldn't simply get money paid into your bank account; you would have to actually show up during the day and do some work.

I can't think of any disadvantages. "Artists" and "musicians" might get pissed off, but from the artists and musicians I know, none of them do it full-time so they could easily work during the day.

Enforcement would simply be no work no dole.

I don't know why we aren't doing this already. Money for nothing makes no sense.

Thoughts?

Atwork · 29-12-2009 05:49PM

People already do those "Unpopular Jobs" and make good living out of it.

AARRRGH · 29-12-2009 05:54PM

Atwork wrote: »

People already do those "Unpopular Jobs" and make good living out of it.

We could invent jobs for people. For example, I am sure nursing homes would love someone to come do a bit of painting, or cut the grass or whatever.

The idea is to force people to work so they start considering jobs which are beneath them, or simply consider working full stop.

Australia already do this and it has been a complete success.

Atwork · 29-12-2009 06:00PM

I completly understand what you are saying but, lets say you spent 20 years building up a company where you washed windows and cutlawns and had two or three lads employed, this system would put you out of business very quickly putting you and your employees on the dole. Now what is the point of that,

Secondly, I seen public sevants out on strike recently, these paticular public servants were council workers who emptied bins and swept streets. What would happen to their jobs.

Simply wont work.

Finally, I imgine lots of the new unemployed really want to work. I myself am one. Many people asked me how i felt about the decrease in the recent budget. My answer was very simple and still the same. They could take a 100% off me and give me nothing on the condition they start generating jobs and Im back to work(any kind) in six months. I could live on tea, beans and toast for that long.

dlofnep · 29-12-2009 06:01PM

It wouldn't work.

Firstly - people need to be able to search for work. If they are working for their dole, they won't be able to search for employment. Not everyone is a sponger.

Secondly, any work that is out there to be done is being done. If there was work to do, then there would be jobs for people to get, but there isn't. If you pay people to be on the dole and actually found work for them to do, you would be taking away from employment opportunities.

Thirdly - Someone would be required to be paid minimum wage for their work. Trying to pay every single person on the dole normal work rates wouldn't be economically possible.

You should be focusing on creating real employment, rather than paying people on the dole to do something that isn't really there to be done.

AARRRGH · 29-12-2009 06:02PM

It works in Australia...

My suggestions are only suggestions. The concept I am presenting is working for the dole.

Cork Boy · 29-12-2009 06:03PM

I fully agree.

However, what about single mothers? Who'll look after the smallies before they reach school age?

Then you'll have the aforementioned spongers claiming to be physically/mentally unable for work (things very hard to diagnose/disprove).

In theory it would be great, in reality I wouldn't really see it working though tbh.

Gurgle · 29-12-2009 06:10PM

Cork Boy wrote: »

However, what about single mothers? Who'll look after the smallies before they reach school age?

Thats not the dole, thats a completely different welfare system.

On that subject, single mothers could mind each other's kids & job-share on a full scale work-for-welfare scheme.

picpress · 29-12-2009 07:02PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

It works in Australia...

My suggestions are only suggestions. The concept I am presenting is working for the dole.

This is very insulting to the honest people who by no fault of their own now find themselves on the dole. If there was work out there they would be working. I think this type of scheme is designed to put people off applying for dole payments in the first place and had more revelence during the celtic tiger years when we still had people claiming dole when we needed to import workers to fill places.

dlofnep · 29-12-2009 07:09PM

picpress wrote: »

This very insulting to honest people who no fault of their own now find themselves on the dole. If there was work out there they would be working. I think this type of scheme is designed to put people off applying for dole payments in the first place and had more revelence during the celtic tiger years when we still had people claiming dole when we needed to import workers to fill places.

Pretty much. The jobs aren't there for people to get.

silverharp · 29-12-2009 07:11PM

cost would be a problem, even in a high labour content business, labour might only be a high as 70% of your costs. So overnight you would be increasing the size of the welfare budget by at least 30%?

ntlbell · 29-12-2009 07:12PM

picpress wrote: »

This very insulting to honest people who no fault of their own now find themselves on the dole. If there was work out there they would be working. I think this type of scheme is designed to put people off applying for dole payments in the first place and had more revelence during the celtic tiger years when we still had people claiming dole when we needed to import workers to fill places.

How is it insulting? if there was work that they WANTED to do, they would be working.

I pay huge road taxes, the road's I drive on to get to work to pay the taxes to pay for things like social welfare are full of pot holes, would be so bad for people who are on the dole to spend 15/20 hours a week to help fill them in?

Do some chores for local OAP's or people who are on disability?

There is tons of jobs they could do that won't put anyone else out of work or take hours from anyone.

Teachers complain they have to monitor exams and take students to football games, hurling, so lets shut them up?

the list of things they could do is endless, they don't have to give so much time that they can't look for work.

How many hours out of 6 days do pepople looking for work put into activley looking for work?

if they have to go for an interview, no problem, let them.

the majority of the difficulties with this have nothing to do with putting people out of work or insulting anyone, it would however probably be an administrive nightmare, but I'm all for it.

I would also having no problem doing it should I be out of work, in fact, I would prefer to do it than sit around watching jeramy kyle et all each day.

Welease · 29-12-2009 07:13PM

picpress wrote: »

This is very insulting to the honest people who by no fault of their own now find themselves on the dole. If there was work out there they would be working. I think this type of scheme is designed to put people off applying for dole payments in the first place and had more revelence during the celtic tiger years when we still had people claiming dole when we needed to import workers to fill places.

I am making no claims either for or against this proposal, but

Why is it insulting? Most honest folks understand the situation and would not be insulted by a scheme which benefits the community while keeping them in food etc., once it didnt interfere with them looking for more suitable long term employment.

It's the lazy arsed spongers who would be insulted.

ei.sdraob · 29-12-2009 07:19PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Thirdly - Someone would be required to be paid minimum wage for their work. Trying to pay every single person on the dole normal work rates wouldn't be economically possible.

considering that the full dole + all the benefits works out more profitable than a min wage job... while doing nothing

anyways coming from someone who supports SF who in turn would like to take more money from productive enterprises and pour it down a welfare hole, im not surprised you disagree

picpress · 29-12-2009 07:31PM

Welease wrote: »

It's the lazy arsed spongers who would be insulted.

I think this is the problem with this as it would be like saying that all on the dole are lazy arsed spongers. This attitude comes right out of the I'm alright jack corner.

dlofnep · 29-12-2009 07:33PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

considering that the full dole + all the benefits works out more profitable than a min wage job... while doing nothing

Full dole = €200 a week.

Earnings in a full-time job, on the minimum wage = €346 a week.

How exactly does it work out more profitable than a minimum wage job? And don't ever state that people have done NOTHING to earn it. I know people who have worked their heart out for 40 years, who have recently lost their job and contributed to the economy all that time. What you're trying to do is paint everyone with the same brush.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyways coming from someone who supports SF who in turn would like to take more money from productive enterprises and pour it down a welfare hole, im not surprised you disagree

The fact that I support Sinn Féin does not negate my right to have an opinion on this matter. This has nothing to do with pouring anything down a "welfare hole".

I support creating real employment for people to actually go out and find legitimate work, and creating harsher penalities on those who abuse the system - instead of trying to create faux-jobs that don't exist.

If there was work to be done, then there could be legitimate employment for people. The reason there is so many people on the dole is because there is mass unemployment.

I'm not for one moment naive enough to think that there aren't people who abuse the system - but I'm also not naive enough to believe that such a strategy is viable in any logical sense. You can't create jobs when the work is not there to be done.

Moreover - if you have a welfare-supported job-system doing work, you're actually going to have companies exploit cheap labour, which in turn will put hard-working people out of a job.

Ponder that, before you judge and attack my character.

jimmyw · 29-12-2009 07:47PM

Well its easy for someone who has a job to be coming up with these kind of suggestions, but if they were out of work would they still say it?

The closest kind of job to this is the Ce scheme but you are completly off the dole with this.Most people on the dole do not want to be on it but there is f**k all out there.

dlofnep · 29-12-2009 07:54PM

jimmyw wrote: »

Well its easy for someone who has a job to be coming up with these kind of suggestions, but if they were out of work would they still say it? The closest kind of job to this is the Ce scheme but you are completly off the dole with this.Most people on the dole do not want to be on it but there is f**k all out there.

Yup, exactly.

I think Fás schemes are better incentives anyway. If people can't find work, at least they are getting an education which betters their chances for finding work.

PCPhoto · 29-12-2009 07:55PM

i would be more in favour of getting convicted criminals to perform work while in the custody of the state.

as others have said .... some people on the dole have contributed to the economy for 20....30.....40years.

I have been on the dole a number of years ago for a couple of months..... its frustrating....finding work is hard, but the system that we have in the country is severely flawed.

I made the decision to take control of my life after several months of being on the dole, set up my own business and have been working as much as possible for 5yrs....adapting to the needs of customers and my own business has changed to keep me working.

anyway...my point was that the dole payments and whole system needs to be reviewed and regulated properly, personally I think it should be a strict system where the PPS card (which should have a picture) needs to be produced and failure to produce it ...no payment.

the_syco · 29-12-2009 07:58PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Employers could hire these people for "free" or possibly for the price of the dole or a percentage of it. This would help people get proper experience while keeping their dole payments. It may also reduce the social welfare bill if employers have to contribute some or all of the employees dole payment.

It's sh|te, and the reason is above. Why pay someone money to do a job, when you can get someone to do it for free?

Hank_Jones · 29-12-2009 08:05PM

I would be more inclined to put these people to work in charitable organisations.
That way they would be doing something positive and not putting any jobs in jeapardy.

I was on the dole for a few months and to be honest I felt that it was crazy.
200 euro a week for doing absolutely nothing, bit of a joke really...

Just like to say aswell that when I started working full time in 2003 I was earning €198 for a 40 hour week, at about €5 an hour.
Worked hard for it as well, so I just find it extremely weird getting something for nothing.

rugbyman · 29-12-2009 08:10PM

While i would not go so far as some have on here about scroungers etc, i saw with interest recently that FAS can place people who are unemployed with certain employers .
these people will only erceive their unemployment payments but will be willing to work, improve their skills and maybe make themselves noticable to a potential employer.

provided there are safeguards to stop employers from abusing the situation I feel this is a good scheme.

regards,Rugbyman

ei.sdraob · 29-12-2009 08:17PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Full dole = €200 a week.

Earnings in a full-time job, on the minimum wage = €346 a week.

lets not forget rent allowance,

free healthcare (this is a big one, and very hard to quantify, but god help if you have no medical card and low paid job)

all sorts of allowances

full dole + rent allowance is very close to min wage, for not doing anything

dlofnep wrote: »

Yup, exactly.

I think Fás schemes are better incentives anyway. If people can't find work, at least they are getting an education which betters their chances for finding work.

ah yes FAS, the 1 billion a year waste of money that it is, a giant gravy train

dlofnep wrote: »

The fact that I support Sinn Féin does not negate my right to have an opinion on this matter. This has nothing to do with pouring anything down a "welfare hole".

your opinion is close to SFs economic disaster of a policy

their proposals are all about borrowing more (while ignoring that debt has to be paid back + interest, and we are already neck deep in debt) and spending it all on "social" schemes. even tho we have the most generous welfare system in the world

/

dlofnep · 29-12-2009 08:28PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

lets not forget rent allowance,

free healthcare (this is a big one, and very hard to quantify, but god help if you have no medical card and low paid job)

all sorts of allowances

full dole + rent allowance is very close to min wage, for not doing anything

Many people who work minimum wage jobs also avail of medical cards and rent allowance.

This is the second time I have to correct you on your use of "for doing nothing". Like I have said, many people (especially with today's job cuts) have contributed to the economy for decades and have most certainly done something to warrant it.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ah yes FAS, the 1 billion a year waste of money that it is, a giant gravy train

FAS scandles aside, it doesn't change my point. It provides a good opportunity for people to have an education, and earn a little cash when they can't find employment. I studied computer networking in FAS about 8 years ago when I lost my job. I can tell you first-hand that has been a benefit to my life, and to many others.

ei.sdraob · 29-12-2009 08:33PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Many people who work minimum wage jobs also avail of medical cards and rent allowance.

This is the second time I have to correct you on your use of "for doing nothing". Like I have said, many people (especially with today's job cuts) have contributed to the economy for decades and have most certainly done something to warrant it.

what about the 100,000 who didnt bother getting jobs during the biggest boom in countries history, and are long time dolers?

dlofnep wrote: »

FAS scandles aside, it doesn't change my point. It provides a good opportunity for people to have an education, and earn a little cash when they can't find employment. I studied computer networking in FAS about 8 years ago when I lost my job. I can tell you first-hand that has been a benefit to my life, and to many others.

Theres no denying that they do some good, but on the other hand they wasted billions on money that could have went to train people

like SF you focus on one or two nice things the organisation does, while ignoring the big elephants having a crap in the living room

dlofnep wrote: »

Moreover - if you have a welfare-supported job-system doing work, you're actually going to have companies exploit cheap labour, which in turn will put hard-working people out of a job.
.

what cheap labour? we have one of the highest welfare and min wage rates in world

and once again let me remind you that SF want to increase corporate taxation in Ireland, how many people will that put out of job?

donkey balls · 29-12-2009 09:04PM

rugbyman wrote: »

While i would not go so far as some have on here about scroungers etc, i saw with interest recently that FAS can place people who are unemployed with certain employers .
these people will only erceive their unemployment payments but will be willing to work, improve their skills and maybe make themselves noticable to a potential employer.

provided there are safeguards to stop employers from abusing the situation I feel this is a good scheme.

regards,Rugbyman

i came accross one of those schemes on the FAS website while looking for a full time job the company that adverstised the job had all sorts of pre reqs(they wanted experienced professional people)to work 40hr+ for 200euro odd a week.in the mid 90s i left a full time job to study transport mgmt&logistics i had no previous experience but i took the risk and it payed off upto last year just before i got let go.

dlofnep · 29-12-2009 09:05PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what about the 100,000 who didnt bother getting jobs during the biggest boom in countries history, and are long time dolers?

People losing their jobs isn't something unique to this recession. People have lost their jobs for decades. I can only assume that you are suggesting that 100,000 people on the dole were sponging the system - which is asinine.

You don't see the correlation between mass job loss in this recession, and increased numbers of those on the dole? The reality of the matter is most people don't want to be on the dole, and have contributed to society for many years.

There is a sizeable portion of people who abuse the system, and who haven't worked a day in their life. I know these people exist, and see them every day. They should be hunted down and investigated because it creates a bad stigma, which allows people like you to paint everyone with the same brush - including people like my father (which allowed him to feed me and my family a few years back) who have worked since they were 14, and have contributed to the economy for decades. I find it repulsive.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Theres no denying that they do some good, but on the other hand they wasted billions on money that could have went to train people

You seem to think I disagree with your views on wasted or misused funds in FAS. I don't. And neither does anyone in Sinn Féin. But your continued attempt to turn this thread into a Sinn Féin thread is getting redundant. I'm not speaking on behalf of SF, or as a spokesperson of the party. I am giving my opinion on the situation, on behalf of me only. If you wish to discuss SF's economic policies - create a thread for it, before this thread gets completely off-topic.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

like SF you focus on one or two nice things the organisation does, while ignoring the big elephants having a crap in the living room

Wrong. Sinn Féin condemned the expediture scandal:
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/17330

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what cheap labour? we have one of the highest welfare and min wage rates in world

If you make people who are on the dole to work - it means that they are going to earn nearly half of the minimum wage. Therefore, it is perfectly plausible to suggest that companies would exploit this for cheap labour.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and once again let me remind you that SF want to increase corporate taxation in Ireland, how many people will that put out of job?

The current policy is to keep the corporate tax at 12.5%. Sinn Féin wanted to reduce corporate tax for small businesses in the north by 4.5%. This has nothing to do with the issue at hand. We have discussed this topic in a different thread - I would appreciate it if you didn't take the thread off topic and turned this into a thread about Sinn Féin's economic outlook. It is a thread to discuss the idea of making someone work for the dole.

Welease · 29-12-2009 09:18PM

picpress wrote: »

I think this is the problem with this as it would be like saying that all on the dole are lazy arsed spongers. This attitude comes right out of the I'm alright jack corner.

It's nothing of the sort. I have never stated, nor do I believe that the majority of people on welfare are spongers. So stop making assumptions.
I can also make bad assumptions, and assume you only disagree because you are a lazy arsed dole sponger and want everyone to pay for your lifestyle.. See how that works????

The point is.. the vast majority of hard working people understand that there are many jobs in the community which could be done to improve this country. We don't have the financial means as a country to fill those roles, but we do have a large able bodied available workforce, who for various circumstances need to draw welfare until they can find suitable employment again. Those folks could be put to use if it was deemed financially viable to do so, and most should not have an issue with being asked to peform some work, its just a cultural shift that people would need to make.

So again, why is that insulting? Whats insulting about asking people who have spare time to do some community work which benefits their locale?

Soldie · 29-12-2009 09:39PM

We need to reduce the cost of doing business here so that real jobs can be created. Thanks to semi-states like Bord Gáis and the ESB we have some of the highest prices for gas and electricity in Europe, while employers are laying off staff they cannot afford to retain. The government needs to facilitate the private sector as best it can so that there is work out there for those who want it.

Permabear · 29-12-2009 09:56PM

This post has been deleted.

cornbb · 29-12-2009 10:03PM

It wouldn't work, for reasons mentioned above. I was out of work earlier this year. I spent all my time setting myself up as a sole trader, retraining/retooling, and preparing and travelling for interviews. It paid off and now I've got a nice job. People need to be encouraged to get the jobs that suit them, upskilling themselves if necessary (and of course those who are simply workshy need to have their arses kicked somehow too). If I was forced to cut grass I wouldn't have had time to do all those things.

Work for the dole

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