Buddhist monk wants to go to Christian Hell

Slav · 17-12-2009 05:47PM

derfderf wrote: »

Didn't god create hell? If god is doing everything to prevent people ending up there why create it in the first place?

I have answered this question in post 20.

BrianCalgary · 17-12-2009 05:48PM

Panrich wrote: »

He only had to create it to fulfill the fact that he is a vengeful god.

The purpose of a punishment is to either correct behaviour or to impart justice (revenge).

While there is hope of redemption then there is a plausible argument for a 'punishment' such as hell and a sinner may be saved and rehabilitated. After judgement day what other purpose can hell serve except as a revenge if there is no way back to salvation.
Hence an eternal hell is the product of a vengeful god.

No it is not. It is a place for those who reject God. Hell is not God's fault.

There are those who want nothing to do with God. When judgement day comes those who wish nothing to do with God will finally get their wish. A place where He is not, no Christians at all.

That place is called Hell. People are there, not for God to get revenge, but a place for God to honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him.

kelly1 · 17-12-2009 05:49PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No.

Brian, who other than God, could create hell?

monosharp · 17-12-2009 05:52PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Thanks Mono for that. It is what I wished to establish.

God is the judge who determines your final place. The only reason that I have a hope of getting into Heaven is because Jesus acts as my lawyer before God.

So God sends me to hell but Jesus acts as my defence ?

Cheers.

I don't know if he can make that choice. Although I do think that he'd get burned out (no pun intended) emotionally trying to help so many needy people.

This is as 'spiritual' as I ever get so I hope you'll read this with an open mind.

In my experience, I have met some Buddhist monks, a lot of catholic priests, many pastors/preachers and many spiritual/philosophical people but I have only ever been lost for words in the presence of two, a Buddhist monk and a Church of Ireland pastor.

I may not believe in God/reincarnation/an afterlife etc but I do believe in enlightenment, in my own particular definition of course, after meeting these two men.

Its one of the main reasons I cannot accept Christianity or any Abrahamic religion, because I cannot believe for a second that any deity would punish this monk (or the COI pastor in the case of choosing the wrong branch of Abrahamic religion) for non-belief and reward the majority of the Christians/Muslims/Jews etc I know.

So to make my point, no, I don't think this guy would get burned out at all regardless of the size of the problem facing him.

I guess he could try, but would soon run into a situation where he would be done emotionally.

Some people, regardless of religious preference, are just out of the ordinary when it comes to how much they can take or how much they can give.

Panrich · 17-12-2009 05:55PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

a place for God to honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him.

And how does he honour those wishes if what we are lead to believe is true?

He certainly is in charge of climate control.

monosharp · 17-12-2009 05:55PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It will be worse, because in this portion of your life there is still God. In Hell I dont think God will be there.

Well we'll have to disagree there.

Dancing_Priest · 17-12-2009 06:06PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Quite right here.

We do through prayer. Just as a kid influences a parents decision.

I have to question the vaidity of your logic here.
Parents are imperfect. They act out of love and the best of intentions but they are still going to make mistakes. They my be strong willed but they can be worn down by their children, they may be enlightned by their childrens wisdom. That is why children can alter the behaviour of their parents.

God on the other hand is the perfect being, no human will is strong enough to bend the will of God. No human mind has the meerest possibility of adding to Gods infinite wisdom. God's plan is perfect, perfection on a scale that no human can comprehend. Answering the prayers of His people could only serve to sully his creation.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I dont think we have different notions of God.

The God of the Catholic Church requires a medium for a person to confess their sins, this is not a universal rule throughout Christianity. When one considers the gravity of not confessing your sins, it is fair to say that this is not an insignificant divergence of ideas on the nature of God.

kelly1 · 17-12-2009 06:11PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

God is the judge who determines your final place. The only reason that I have a hope of getting into Heaven is because Jesus acts as my lawyer before God.

Brian, sorry if this sounds like I'm picking on you, but doesn't scripture make it clear that we are saved by grace and grace is essentially divine life i.e. the real presence of the Holy Trinity in our souls?

It is grace that enabled us to "face" the Beatific Vision i.e. the direct unmediated vision of God. Without this we would not dare enter God's presence. Personally I believe that when someone dies, they become acutely conscious of the state of their souls. If they die in a state of mortal sin, the soul cannot possibly face the holiness of God and they can only cast themselves into hell.

I believe the particular judgment by Jesus is used to determine the rewards due to us. Our ultimate destiny depends on the state of our souls at the point of death and this is why Jesus said we must persevere to the end.

Zombrex · 17-12-2009 06:16PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No it is not. It is a place for those who reject God. Hell is not God's fault.

But he did create it, right?

And he had to create it because those who reject God demanded that there was a place for them to go after they died. He was forced to create it.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

There are those who want nothing to do with God. When judgement day comes those who wish nothing to do with God will finally get their wish. A place where He is not, no Christians at all.

That place is called Hell. People are there, not for God to get revenge, but a place for God to honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him.

And the lake of fire and eternal suffering? Did they want that as well?

BrianCalgary · 17-12-2009 10:47PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Brian, sorry if this sounds like I'm picking on you, but doesn't scripture make it clear that we are saved by grace and grace is essentially divine life i.e. the real presence of the Holy Trinity in our souls?

It is grace that enabled us to "face" the Beatific Vision i.e. the direct unmediated vision of God. Without this we would not dare enter God's presence. Personally I believe that when someone dies, they become acutely conscious of the state of their souls. If they die in a state of mortal sin, the soul cannot possibly face the holiness of God and they can only cast themselves into hell.

I believe the particular judgment by Jesus is used to determine the rewards due to us. Our ultimate destiny depends on the state of our souls at the point of death and this is why Jesus said we must persevere to the end.

Absolutely Kelly, we are saved by grace.

I just picture, rightly or wrongly, that when I stand before God that Jesus will say, "Matthew 10:32
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.

Thereby assuring me of my salvation. It is by grace that Jesus stands with me.

Also as to who created Hell
You quoted Matthew 25:41, it says that Hell was created, but it does not say by whom. This is nitpicky, but I think it was created by Satan and his minions as a consequence of their actions by rebelling against God.

BrianCalgary · 17-12-2009 10:49PM

Wicknight wrote: »

But he did create it, right? ?

I dont think so. I think it was created by satan and his crowd when they rebelled.

Wicknight wrote: »

And he had to create it because those who reject God demanded that there was a place for them to go after they died. He was forced to create it. ?

You can think that all you want wick, because you want to blame God and Christians for all the evil in the world.

Wicknight wrote: »

And the lake of fire and eternal suffering? Did they want that as well?

You tell me?

BrianCalgary · 17-12-2009 10:51PM

Panrich wrote: »

And how does he honour those wishes if what we are lead to believe is true?

He certainly is in charge of climate control.

What are you led to believe and how does that counter what I have said?

Fanny Cradock · 17-12-2009 11:15PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't that the same thing.

If I walk into a room and turn of all the lights who do you think is going to get shouted at for people walking into the coffee table?

If God has removed himself from a portion of the spiritual plane or what ever you guys want to call it and then places people in this place because they have displeased him then he has both created hell and sent people there.

Why he has done that (the bit BC seems fixated on) is irrelevant to this simple statement.

I think you stretch the analogy too far. If one chooses to walk around darkened rooms then tripping over coffee tables is your fault.

kelly1 wrote: »

Fanny, Hell must have been created by God. Scripture says that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41). And this was before humans came on the scene.

And hell must be a place rather than a state because it must contain the bodies of the damned after the resurrection (Acts 23:6).

Humm... I admit that I don't spend an inordinate amount of time wondering about hell beyond my belief that it is to be avoided - whatever it is. This said I am willing to consider various perspectives and interpretations, so thank you. Thou I would say that the verse in Matt doesn't have to be read as a literal description.

monosharp wrote: »

I'm asking for opinions on the monks comments and the interpretation of hell he has been led to believe by people who claim to be part of your religion.

Maybe I missed something, but how do you know that the monk simply misunderstood, rather than Christians misinformed him?

monosharp wrote: »

I asked several questions and you only answered one of them.

Yes, I answered one question - and please note that I wasn't obliged to answer even this.

monosharp wrote: »

Could you please answer my other questions ?

1) It depends. I have no idea how they approach the topic - one can handle it in a sensitive way. There the positive message of Christianity should be emphasised, I don't believe that Christians should be ignoring a key belief simply because it is uncomfortable.

2) No idea what the physical characteristics of the place will be. However, as I believe that it is devoid of goodness, I don't believe the monk will be able to do good - such noble desires won't be in him.

3) Same as 2.

kelly1 · 17-12-2009 11:30PM

Wicknight wrote: »

And the lake of fire and eternal suffering? Did they want that as well?

Not likely.

The primary pain of hell is eternal separation from God and the eternal remorse that the loss of infinte good brings. This is what obstinate sinners choose i.e separation from God. The other sufferings in hell are commensurate with the offences committed against a God of infinite love and mercy who sent His only Son to die for us.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Also as to who created Hell
You quoted Matthew 25:41, it says that Hell was created, but it does not say by whom. This is nitpicky, but I think it was created by Satan and his minions as a consequence of their actions by rebelling against God.

Why do you think Satan would have the power to create hell? And why would Lucifer create a place of punishment for himself and his cohorts? It would hardly be to his advantage would it?

Zombrex · 17-12-2009 11:59PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I dont think so. I think it was created by satan and his crowd when they rebelled.

Well as Kelly asked why would Satan create a place where he suffered?

And how is Satan capable of creating somewhere where he has banished God from?

How can Satan remove God's grace from some where? I didn't realise Satan was that powerful

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You can think that all you want wick, because you want to blame God and Christians for all the evil in the world.

Hey I don't think God exists so blaming him for all the evil in the world would be a bit weird

I notice though that you don't seem to be able or willing to actually answer the questions properly? Any particular reason? They are pretty simple questions.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You tell me?

Why would I tell you, you are the one making the claims about hell and who created it ... ?

You claim hell was not created by God but created by Satan or those sinners who didn't want to worship God

An obvious problem with that is why would they create such a horrible place if they themselves end up there?

Do you have an answer to that?

Asiaprod · 18-12-2009 02:48AM

kelly1 wrote: »

This is very true Wicknight. Christianity teaches that nothing created (including other humans) can fully satisfy our deepest desires. The pursuit of happiness through pleasure in material things inevitable brings disgust and disenchantment. Only God can fulfill all our desires leaving us wanting nothing more.

kelly1, can you define these "deepest desires" for me please.

Panrich · 18-12-2009 12:08PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

What are you led to believe and how does that counter what I have said?

OK. I postulated that an eternal hell is the product of a vengeful god.

You countered by saying

People are there, not for God to get revenge, but a place for God to honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him.

This is to say that people are placed in hell because they chose the path to hell through their actions in life. From all christian teachings, hell is not a very nice place to reside in. I am sure that some sinners once they are there will be repentant and wish that they could change their mind as the conventional teaching is that the separation from god is unbearable. Either that or sinners are happy in hell in which case there is no advantage to following your god in the first place. Yet once the judgement day has passed the ship has sailed and no amount of remorse will get the sinner back to heaven. On what basis can a just god deny repentant sinners. I say that only a vengeful god could act in this manner and your reply has not argued against that.

old_aussie · 18-12-2009 01:08PM

Buddhist monk wants to go to Christian Hell, it's a pity the monk has died.

The monk could have got some first hand pre-death experience by just visiting Ireland lol

Manach · 18-12-2009 02:50PM

and what you mean by that is .... ?

PDN · 18-12-2009 03:13PM

Panrich wrote: »

OK. I postulated that an eternal hell is the product of a vengeful god.

You countered by saying

People are there, not for God to get revenge, but a place for God to honour the wishes of those who want nothing to do with Him.

This is to say that people are placed in hell because they chose the path to hell through their actions in life. From all christian teachings, hell is not a very nice place to reside in. I am sure that some sinners once they are there will be repentant and wish that they could change their mind as the conventional teaching is that the separation from god is unbearable. Either that or sinners are happy in hell in which case there is no advantage to following your god in the first place. Yet once the judgement day has passed the ship has sailed and no amount of remorse will get the sinner back to heaven. On what basis can a just god deny repentant sinners. I say that only a vengeful god could act in this manner and your reply has not argued against that.

My own theory is that there is no need for God to make hell nasty at all.

Just let those who reject God and choose to disobey Him go to any place, even a beautiful garden, and they will turn it into a gulag in very little time. What it will come to look like throughout eternity doesn't bear thinking about.

kelly1 · 18-12-2009 03:18PM

Asiaprod wrote: »

kelly1, can you define these "deepest desires" for me please.

Not an easy one to explain but to me it's what all of us longs for more than anything else. And I think what we ultimately long for is the greatest good. We want to believe that there is some ultimate good and justice in the universe. The world can be a very unjust and cruel place and we long for supreme love. I think it's fair to say that without love, we wither and die and with love we flourish. I think we all long to be loved more than anything else and I think we are made by God to love and to be loved.

Xluna · 18-12-2009 04:46PM

I always felt Buddhism was more "Christ like" than Christianity. Glad to have my suspicions re-affirmed.

PDN · 18-12-2009 04:55PM

Xluna wrote: »

I always felt Buddhism was more "Christ like" than Christianity. Glad to have my suspicions prejudices & misconceptions re-affirmed.

Fixed that for you.

kelly1 · 18-12-2009 04:56PM

Xluna wrote: »

I always felt Buddhism was more "Christ like" than Christianity.

Would you mind explaining what you mean by this please?

Zombrex · 18-12-2009 05:03PM

PDN wrote: »

My own theory is that there is no need for God to make hell nasty at all.

Just let those who reject God and choose to disobey Him go to any place, even a beautiful garden, and they will turn it into a gulag in very little time.

Why exactly?

You appear to be suggesting that those who reject God (ie atheists or memebers of other religions) are immoral and nasty people who would turn a beautiful garden into some where horrible ... which I'm sure you wouldn't be of course, but I hope you can see the confusion.

Zombrex · 18-12-2009 05:04PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Would you mind explaining what you mean by this please?

I think he means Buddhist philosophy and principles do Christ's principles, like the golden rule, better than Christianity. I would agree, though the Christian forum probably ain't a place to get too much into it (rabbit holes and all that)

PDN · 18-12-2009 06:30PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Why exactly?

You appear to be suggesting that those who reject God (ie atheists or memebers of other religions) are immoral and nasty people who would turn a beautiful garden into some where horrible ... which I'm sure you wouldn't be of course, but I hope you can see the confusion.

Without God's grace and transforming power I believe we are all immoral and nasty people who would turn a beautiful garden into some where horrible (and I include myself among that).

It's taken us a few thousand years, but we've managed to screw up one beautiful planet, and that was with our life spans being restricted to a few short years.

Btw, I wasn't even thinking of atheists. It's not all about you, you know.

Xluna · 18-12-2009 07:57PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Would you mind explaining what you mean by this please?

O.K. but you'll have to bear with me.

From a perspective of ethics, the teachings of Jesus are very similiar to the Buddha,which preceded him. Jesus is selfless,universal,non judgemental and compassionate-very similiar to Buddist ethics. The teachings and behaviour of Jehova seems to be the opposiate to me-jealous (by his own admission),exclusive(tribalistic) egotistical,vengeful and wrathful. To me they embody opposiate personas.

I could never reconcile these two manifestations of what is purported to be the same God in my mind. Somehow,Christians seem to manage this feat,with emphasis on the Christ like ethics. Now obviously they can't ignore the views and ethics of Jehova so they incorporate this moralitiy into the Christ morality, which seems diametrically opposed to me. So IMO Christiantity seems to be not 100% Christ like in terms of ethics.

Buddhism does'nt have to incorporate the ethics of Jehova. So, IMO Buddhism is ethically more true to the teachings of Jesus than Christianity.

PDN · 18-12-2009 11:18PM

Xluna wrote: »

O.K. but you'll have to bear with me.

From a perspective of ethics, the teachings of Jesus are very similiar to the Buddha,which preceded him. Jesus is selfless,universal,non judgemental and compassionate-very similiar to Buddist ethics. The teachings and behaviour of Jehova seems to be the opposiate to me-jealous (by his own admission),exclusive(tribalistic) egotistical,vengeful and wrathful. To me they embody opposiate personas.

I could never reconcile these two manifestations of what is purported to be the same God in my mind. Somehow,Christians seem to manage this feat,with emphasis on the Christ like ethics. Now obviously they can't ignore the views and ethics of Jehova so they incorporate this moralitiy into the Christ morality, which seems diametrically opposed to me. So IMO Christiantity seems to be not 100% Christ like in terms of ethics.

Buddhism does'nt have to incorporate the ethics of Jehova. So, IMO Buddhism is ethically more true to the teachings of Jesus than Christianity.

Jesus spoke about hell quite a lot of times. Actually, according to the New Testament, He spoke about hell more often than He spoke about heaven.

So, if Buddhism is more true to the teaching of Jesus Christ then why doesn't it teach about hell? Why doesn't it agree with the teaching of Jesus that no-one comes to God except through Christ? Why doesn't it agree with Jesus that you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven? In fact it agrees with very little of what Jesus actually taught.

Xluna · 18-12-2009 11:30PM

PDN wrote: »

Jesus spoke about hell quite a lot of times. Actually, according to the New Testament, He spoke about hell more often than He spoke about heaven.

So, if Buddhism is more true to the teaching of Jesus Christ then why doesn't it teach about hell? Why doesn't it agree with the teaching of Jesus that no-one comes to God except through Christ? Why doesn't it agree with Jesus that you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven? In fact it agrees with very little of what Jesus actually taught.

Ah yes I almost forgot about all that, which taints Jesus as a good ethical philosopher in my books. You're right. Budhhism is'nt Christ like at all, just good old fashioned empathy and humanism-which is all you need to be a good person.

Buddhist monk wants to go to Christian Hell

Comments