My outrage at some members of the public service

K-9 · 09-12-2009 12:38AM

mickeyk wrote: »

I didn't actually mention their salaries. The reason i checked up on this is because on a recent visit to hospital to see a friend I noticed there were an awful lot of nurses in the ward. Was very surprised when I saw we had far more than most countries, the way they go on would defiantely make one think that they are completely understaffed. How do France (often cited as the worlds best healtcare service) manage with fewer than us?

If only getting rid of some management in the HSE was a easy as some make out. The Unions will be the first to oppose it just as they negotiated the permanent contracts for them in the HSE.

opinion guy · 09-12-2009 12:45AM

tudlytops wrote: »

Just on the "poor" plublic sector, etc.

Even the lowest salary is a nice salary.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html#Common

Before tax and that's before over time, bonus, etc., for the lowest wage, what's so wrong with those wages.

Not everyone in the public service makes that. Teachers don't get overtime generally. Not sure about a bonus.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQui...lProduct=DB_PS

Private sector doesn't get this wages, have to pay for their own pensions, don't get to claim full wages while sick for in some cases years, don't have job security.

Plus when people get 5% raise or so they make jokes like, "oh how should i invest this huge raise" but when they lose the same amount, its "how am i going to pay my mortgage", so is % good or bad?

Those are average figures. They hide the details - they could be artifically high if the management make a **** load. Here is a break down of wages in the Department of Health and Children:
http://www.dohc.ie/publications/salary_scales_sept2008.html

Note the MASSIVE discrepancies between top and bottom of scale. Also note the management types make series 6 figure sums (page 29 or something like that)

mickeyk wrote: »

I didn't actually mention their salaries. The reason i checked up on this is because on a recent visit to hospital to see a friend I noticed there were an awful lot of nurses in the ward. Was very surprised when I saw we had far more than most countries, the way they go on would defiantely make one think that they are completely understaffed. How do France (often cited as the worlds best healtcare service) manage with fewer than us?

Well I don't know about that. I do know there are shortages of specialist nurses. Not all nurses are equally quaified - a details ignored by those graphs. Its entirely possible France has way more specialist nurses than we do. I also noted Ireland rates near the bottom for number of doctors

opinion guy · 09-12-2009 12:47AM

K-9 wrote: »

If only getting rid of some management in the HSE was a easy as some make out. The Unions will be the first to oppose it just as they negotiated the permanent contracts for them in the HSE.

Completely agree with you there.

The_Honeybadger · 09-12-2009 12:49AM

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

there are a lot of reasons, mostly to do with how the different healthcare systems work

tbh, if you speak to a sample of irish based nurses, they'd much prefer to work in say the Dutch or French system. Understaffing on Irish hospital wards is a huge issue. I see it first hand nearly every day.

Best practice research would also point to the fact that the lower the nurse to patient ratio you have, the better outcomes and better mortality rates you'll come out with. This is something that a lot of other countries acknowledge and are actually looking to increase nursing numbers.

Thats a pretty vague answer, it is to do with systems.

Don't understand your last point, it seems a contradiction.

I'm not going to think about it too much but basic logic would say that the more nurses there are the better naturally, yet we have the most in Europe and one of the poorest systems. Just wanted to make people aware of it when you hear nurses complaining i think this point is an important one.

tudlytops · 09-12-2009 12:53AM

that's what I've been saying the whole time.

The system needs organization.

I've been a patient in private hospitals in Ireland, and it's not that they have more nurses, they are just better organized.

thebman · 09-12-2009 01:15AM

tudlytops wrote: »

that's what I've been saying the whole time.

The system needs organization.

I've been a patient in private hospitals in Ireland, and it's not that they have more nurses, they are just better organized.

That's management and systems like IT systems which IMO unions are preventing from being introduced and the government has no will to introduce against opposition from unions.

Its the whole, OMG mary might lose her job if we you put a computer system in to do her job. In reality nurses have better things to be doing and the more automated the documentation and tracking can be the better. There isn't a lack of work to be done in health care but we seem to be behind in many areas. Of course all I can say is that because I don't know much about it. Its just my perception of the Health Sector from the outside having never really required it.

opinion guy · 09-12-2009 01:22AM

thebman wrote: »

That's management and systems like IT systems which IMO unions are preventing from being introduced and the government has no will to introduce against opposition from unions.

Its the whole, OMG mary might lose her job if we you put a computer system in to do her job. In reality nurses have better things to be doing and the more automated the documentation and tracking can be the better. There isn't a lack of work to be done in health care but we seem to be behind in many areas. Of course all I can say is that because I don't know much about it. Its just my perception of the Health Sector from the outside having never really required it.

Nope. Absolutely not. The reason the hospitals don't have proper IT systems is lack of investment plain and simple. Some hospitals have more sophisticaed systems. For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't - resulting in large amounts of wasted time and money dealing with film xrays. Its nothing to do with unions - its lack of investment/poor management.

Dr Galen · 09-12-2009 01:27AM

mickeyk wrote: »

Thats a pretty vague answer, it is to do with systems.

Don't understand your last point, it seems a contradiction.

I'm not going to think about it too much but basic logic would say that the more nurses there are the better naturally, yet we have the most in Europe and one of the poorest systems. Just wanted to make people aware of it when you hear nurses complaining i think this point is an important one.

i could give you a much more detailed answer, as could many others. This thread isn't the place to do that though IMHO. Suffice to say, the Irish healthcare system is run in a very different way to say the Dutch or German systems. Thats from the top down and the bottom up. Unfortunately, as wonderful as nurses are

just because we have more of them, won't automatically make the system better than others. We over rely on nurses and indeed acute based care here, a better system would be to focus more on the primary care sector and to increase our daycases/minor ops and working hours, in turn, we could provide the same service levels with less acute beds

I'm not sure how the last point was a contradiction??

Research has shown that the lower your nurse to patient ratio, you get better patient outcomes.

In some of the countries listed in that report, they agree, and are looking to increase the numbers of nurses to a number more in line with Ireland.

Your right that this appears to be basic logic, but in the medically based professions, as with all science, things tend to be based on evidence and reearch etc, logic and anecdote don't always cut it.

Dr Galen · 09-12-2009 01:32AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Nope. Absolutely not. The reason the hospitals don't have proper IT systems is lack of investment plain and simple. Some hospitals have more sophisticaed systems. For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't - resulting in large amounts of wasted time and money dealing with film xrays. Its nothing to do with unions - its lack of investment/poor management.

pretty much right. Radiographers love the computer based systems because it makes their job a lot easier. Doc's love it because they can view and x-ray from any PC in the building. Nurses love it because they doc can see the x-ray and figure out what to do with Johnny in bed 5 quicker. Johnny loves it because he can feel better quicker and so on

The pilot scheme for integrated electronic records was actually led by nurses and proven to be workable and cost effective in the long term.........about 4 years ago. The minister then basically sat on her hands, because of the PPARS debacle. You'll find it hard to find a medic, nurse, GP, physio or ward clerk who wouldn't love EPR in the morning

Dr Galen · 09-12-2009 01:34AM

tudlytops wrote: »

that's what I've been saying the whole time.

The system needs organization.

I've been a patient in private hospitals in Ireland, and it's not that they have more nurses, they are just better organized.

they also treat much less critically and seriously ill patients, and thus have less time pressure on all staff. Private hospitals in this country are really more like clinics that do routine operations

tudlytops · 09-12-2009 01:35AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Nope. Absolutely not. The reason the hospitals don't have proper IT systems is lack of investment plain and simple. Some hospitals have more sophisticaed systems. For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't - resulting in large amounts of wasted time and money dealing with film xrays. Its nothing to do with unions - its lack of investment/poor management.

It's not just IT.

Why do i have to go to hospital wait an hour or so, to be told the tests were clear? they can send me a letter.

Why do i have to go to the diabetic clinic to have my blood taken, wait average of 2 hours to be told, you doing fine, or you are a bit high, I have a machine and a doctor, I know how I'm doing.

Why do i get an appointment card every time i go to hospital and then they send me a letter to remind me? just send the letter, save on the appointment card.

there are many things that could be resolved by organization and they would save money, a lot of money.

opinion guy · 09-12-2009 01:41AM

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

pretty much right. Radiographers love the computer based systems because it makes their job a lot easier. Doc's love it because they can view and x-ray from any PC in the building. Nurses love it because they doc can see the x-ray and figure out what to do with Johnny in bed 5 quicker. Johnny loves it because he can feel better quicker and so on

The pilot scheme for integrated electronic records was actually led by nurses and proven to be workable and cost effective in the long term.........about 4 years ago. The minister then basically sat on her hands, because of the PPARS debacle. You'll find it hard to find a medic, nurse, GP, physio or ward clerk who wouldn't love EPR in the morning

Exactly. And add to that the fact that people have to be employed specifically to look after the films, that doctors waste hours looking for films, that films cost money to print and reprint. Throw into that the fact that films go missing, and physical film is more prone to getting put in the wrong packet and leading to errors.

Its a disgrace :mad:

K-9 · 09-12-2009 01:48AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Nope. Absolutely not. The reason the hospitals don't have proper IT systems is lack of investment plain and simple. Some hospitals have more sophisticaed systems. For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't - resulting in large amounts of wasted time and money dealing with film xrays. Its nothing to do with unions - its lack of investment/poor management.

This is what annoys me. Why the feck not?

We can have plenty of administrators and managers, plenty of nurses paid reasonable wages, consultants turning their noses up at €200,000 and we can't have a proper IT system. The system is so out of date it causes misdiagnoses.

The HSE budget will be cut by a Billion Euro and people are objecting to pay cuts!

Fecking Monty Python got it right 30 years ago. THE MACHINE THAT GOES BING.

opinion guy · 09-12-2009 02:00AM

K-9 wrote: »

This is what annoys me. Why the feck not?

We can have plenty of administrators and managers, plenty of nurses paid reasonable wages, consultants turning their noses up at €200,000 and we can't have a proper IT system. The system is so out of date it causes misdiagnoses.

The HSE budget will be cut by a Billion Euro and people are objecting to pay cuts!

Fecking Monty Python got it right 30 years ago. THE MACHINE THAT GOES BING.

Sorry whats your point here ?
Forcing thru pay cuts will do ZERO to address problems like this - they will persist. In fact it will only further degrade the whole system as will things like unpaid holidays. This kind of issue is a capital development issue and is more to do with Brendan Drumm and Mary Harney than anyone else

tudlytops · 09-12-2009 02:07AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Sorry whats your point here ?
Forcing thru pay cuts will do ZERO to address problems like this - they will persist. In fact it will only further degrade the whole system as will things like unpaid holidays. This kind of issue is a capital development issue and is more to do with Brendan Drumm and Mary Harney than anyone else

People in the private sector have been asked to take unpaid holidays for a long time, why can't the public sector be asked to do this to.

Everyone likes getting when its going well, but when is time for some pay back, oh no we can't have that.

K-9 · 09-12-2009 02:39AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Sorry whats your point here ?
Forcing thru pay cuts will do ZERO to address problems like this - they will persist. In fact it will only further degrade the whole system as will things like unpaid holidays. This kind of issue is a capital development issue and is more to do with Brendan Drumm and Mary Harney than anyone else

Correct.

A bit late for it now!

opinion guy · 09-12-2009 03:28AM

tudlytops wrote: »

People in the private sector have been asked to take unpaid holidays for a long time, why can't the public sector be asked to do this to.

Everyone likes getting when its going well, but when is time for some pay back, oh no we can't have that.

I'm sorry what does this have to do with what we are discussing. Pay attention! Unpaid holidays will only make the problems in the public sector worse.

K-9 wrote: »

Correct.

A bit late for it now!

Well no it isn't. Now is when it has to be done. You can either fix the system by improving efficiency and streamlining or you can be lazy and just blanket cut wages and enforce unpaid holidays which i rpomise you will further degrade the system

thebman · 09-12-2009 08:13AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Nope. Absolutely not. The reason the hospitals don't have proper IT systems is lack of investment plain and simple. Some hospitals have more sophisticaed systems. For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't - resulting in large amounts of wasted time and money dealing with film xrays. Its nothing to do with unions - its lack of investment/poor management.

Well money was pured into health during good times, what did they spend it on other than consultant wages?

ardmacha · 09-12-2009 10:12AM

For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't

I think this is the point. There are examples of good practice in all parts of the public service, areas which are significantly more efficient than similar depts elsewhere. These better organised sections should be the template for bringing the laggards up to scratch.

You can either fix the system by improving efficiency and streamlining or you can be lazy and just blanket cut wages and enforce unpaid holidays which i rpomise you will further degrade the system

Well we have two out of three, laziness and a blanket cut, just not the unpaid holidays.

MaceFace · 09-12-2009 10:13AM

tudlytops wrote: »

People in the private sector have been asked to take unpaid holidays for a long time, why can't the public sector be asked to do this to.

Everyone likes getting when its going well, but when is time for some pay back, oh no we can't have that.

The private sector and most of the public sector are very different - the demands in the private sector have plummeted (hence job losses), whereas the demans on the public sector have either stayed the same or increased (with a few exceptions).
Therefore, unpaid holidays in the private sector does not impact the business, but if we give many in the public sector more time off, it will impact on the services offered - the PS can not keep up with the demands as it is especially in Health and Social Welfare.

Pharaoh1 · 09-12-2009 10:34AM

Don't know if this was mentioned before but was anyone watching Prime Time last night.

A couple with three kids, the husband a postman and wife a HSE nurse doing shift work (as far as I can remember) and her saying that at the moment (pre budget) they were just on the threshold of qualifying for FIS and that the budget would push them over the limit.

Is this credible?
To qualify their weekly net income would have to be less than 685 euro. This would include both their salaries and their childrens allowance.
Their childrens allowance would amount to 123.46 per week so we are expected to believe that at present their combined net salaries are around 560 euro per week. They looked like a couple in their mid to late thirties.
This is about as believable as PJ Stone's claim that some Gardai have 8 or 9 euro to live on after deductions.

Anyone notice this - if I am way off the mark here please let me know.

murphaph · 09-12-2009 10:37AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Nope. Absolutely not. The reason the hospitals don't have proper IT systems is lack of investment plain and simple. Some hospitals have more sophisticaed systems. For example some have computerised xray departments, others don't - resulting in large amounts of wasted time and money dealing with film xrays. Its nothing to do with unions - its lack of investment/poor management.

I guess when you spend all the money on having the best paid nurses and doctors in Europe there's not much left for IT.

My best mate here is an English doctor. Can't believe the salaries Irish medical staff receive. His words "That's vulgar money".

Dublin_Gunner · 09-12-2009 11:01AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

50k for a fireman doesn't seem to unreasonable to me.

They do 24hour shifts, risk their lives in the course of their duties and have extreme psychological trauma in the natural course of their work. They deserve to be compensated well for the risk alone, before you get started on the un-renumerated overtime and being on call.

Teachers on the other hand................:rolleyes:

In fairness, Firepeople (to be PC about it lol) CHOSE the profession, most likely through the severe nepotism in the service.

I could argue that a high-rise window cleaner or a youth worker faces as bad working conditions.

But anyway, I do agree that the fire service is a bad example, but the entire public sector needs reform.

Wage cuts and higher taxes / levy's etc will not alleviate the problem. How about making redundant the 1000's of jobs in the Civil Service where there are office workers on 20K+ doing SFA every day of the week.

One of my friends worked in the Dept. Finance, facilities dept (arranged for light bulbs etc or when there were functions to organise). There were 14, yes, FOOKING 14 of them sitting in the office all day every day, doing pretty much NOTHING! He said, and this is not a word of a lie, that they used to get excited when the phone rang so they might have something to do.

Needless to say, he left, because he's not the type to sit around bored in work for no bloody reason.

Its those sorts of jobs that need to go. And if they did that, there would be no need for pension levy's and sweeping pay cuts.

The Gov need to get up of their ar$es and tackle the unions that are protecting 100's if not 1000's of completely useless jobs.

(these is not meant as a slur against the Civil Service as whole, merely to outline there are far too many people being paid decent wages for contributing NOTHING to the service).

Drumpot · 09-12-2009 11:23AM

opinion guy wrote: »

Are you f**king KIDDING ME ? Would this be the community spirit that:
a) fostered systematic abuse
or
b) covered up said abuse
or
c) ran forced labour camps as "laundries" or "factory schools"
or
d) sent children to Australis never to be heard from again.

If those are the values of the church you can keep them frankly.

I think most people know what I meant and that you took me completley out of context . .

I was thinking more the 10 commandments and the values they preached . .

The other dark nature of what happened is awful, Im not in anyway condoning it . .

But the church does encourage community spirit . . Im not a particularly religous person, but I know that's the intention, of teaching good ethics to people. . . Since its lost its credibility, nobody is teaching ethics or good morals to anybody . . Its a crying shame . ..

The_Honeybadger · 09-12-2009 11:46AM

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

Don't know if this was mentioned before but was anyone watching Prime Time last night.

A couple with three kids, the husband a postman and wife a HSE nurse doing shift work (as far as I can remember) and her saying that at the moment (pre budget) they were just on the threshold of qualifying for FIS and that the budget would push them over the limit.

Is this credible?
To qualify their weekly net income would have to be less than 685 euro. This would include both their salaries and their childrens allowance.
Their childrens allowance would amount to 123.46 per week so we are expected to believe that at present their combined net salaries are around 560 euro per week. They looked like a couple in their mid to late thirties.
This is about as believable as PJ Stone's claim that some Gardai have 8 or 9 euro to live on after deductions.

Anyone notice this - if I am way off the mark here please let me know.

I watched the program and thought the exact same thing. Only thing I can think of is that their debts, mortgage and childcare is killing them, or that one of them only works part-time. Cant see how a postman and a nurse both working full-time could be in trouble if they have managed their money properly. Also if indeed their combined income is under the 685 then maybe the PS do have something to complain about. Either way I think there was something they were not telling us.

Pharaoh1 · 09-12-2009 12:12PM

Re the FIS

I checked and the childrens allowance is not counted as income for the FIS payment.
The level of outgoings debt etc.. is not considered

It just seems to be a pattern recently for people to understate their income when it suits.

The_Honeybadger · 09-12-2009 12:31PM

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

Re the FIS

I checked and the childrens allowance is not counted as income for the FIS payment.
The level of outgoings debt etc.. is not considered

It just seems to be a pattern recently for people to understate their income when it suits.

Another thing I have noticed along with this is PS greatly overstating how much the pension levy has effected their pay. The link below shows that it knocks 40 euro pw off a 60,000 euro wage. PS workers would lead you to believe it is an awful lot more. It was 7-8% off gross wage but was tax deductible so actual contribution is about 4%, some PS workers I talked to told me the effect on their pay was in the hundreds each week. Admittedly they also paid the other levies which effected both public and private.

www.taxcalc.eu

09-12-2009 12:38PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I think most people know what I meant and that you took me completley out of context . .

I was thinking more the 10 commandments and the values they preached . .

The other dark nature of what happened is awful, Im not in anyway condoning it . .

But the church does encourage community spirit . . Im not a particularly religous person, but I know that's the intention, of teaching good ethics to people. . . Since its lost its credibility, nobody is teaching ethics or good morals to anybody . . Its a crying shame . ..

The church has for over a thousand years has not taught anything close to the ten commandments.
Do priests not take a vow of poverty yet the vatican is exceedingly wealthy and has always been for over a thousand years.

The church may foster a sense of belonging to those who are christian and attend mass, but that is very far removed from a "Community spirit".

Intention is not the same as what they practise, yes there may be some well intentioned people in the church but that does not mean that as a whole they actively try to achieve those intentions in fact its quite the opposite.

But thats well off topic

professore · 09-12-2009 12:49PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, here's the 2007 average pay rates by sector:

cordially,
Scofflaw

This graph ends the conversation. Obviously the Public Sector are paid too much as a group. This also doesn't show the massive unpaid or poorly paid overtime, less holidays, no special bonus top-ups, etc that the private sector have to endure. AND this is 2007 - most private sector employees positions are considerably worse now relative to public sector even with the pension levy.

P. Breathnach · 09-12-2009 12:56PM

professore wrote: »

This graph ends the conversation...

This is a discussion forum!

My outrage at some members of the public service

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