Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

Antenna · 04-12-2009 04:13PM

The Cush wrote: »

The frequencies in use today for DTT were agreed at the United Nations ITU Regional Radiocommunication Conference (RRC) in Geneva in 2006.

Unfortunately there aren't enough frequencies to go around so countries and transmitters may be allocated similar frequencies and must coordinate with each other to avoid interference. Irish frequency allocations cannot interfere with UK frequency allocations in the UK and UK frequency allocations cannot interfere with Irish frequency allocations in Ireland.

In Ireland the Irish allocated frequencies take precedence over allocations from other countries, i.e. UK frequency allocations (DTT muxes) are not protected from interference in Ireland.

Whilst nearly everyone accepts all that, there is a perception (by posters here) that some UK DTT reception in the SE is being unnecessarily/needlessly being interfered with at this point in time

Should testing at present be confined to a single MUX destined to be the public service MUX at this point in time?
Should the public service MUX be put on the one channel (of the 4 currently available) least likely to affect spill-over UK reception?

Most of the analogue UHF allocations for TV3 were allocated to Ireland in the 1960s. However RTE network only began test transmissions on them only a few short weeks before TV3 launched in 1998. This is in stark contrast to current DTT testing where there has been much testing on channels and equipment destined to the commercial operator if/when it launches before any deal has been signed) with either 'empty' MUXes or duplication.

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 04:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm reliably informed that up to half the households in co wexford that used have analogue presely now have either digital tv's receiving the presely psb muxes or have decoders at this stage and this is rising.

Unlike the Marie Antoinettes at RTENL and the overpaid RTE management you can be sure that Onevision and its advisers will be monitoring this unfolding fiasco as part of a comprehensive due diligence investigation into the future commercial prospects for Irish DTT and they will be reaching a very negative conclusion. Who would invest in this turkey with Christmas coming and its fate sealed? Freeview from Preseli with an existing aerial is a no brainer!

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 04:49PM

Antenna wrote: »

Whilst nearly everyone accepts all that, there is a perception (by posters here) that some UK DTT reception in the SE is being unnecessarily/needlessly being interfered with at this point in time

Should testing be confined to a single MUX destined to be the public service MUX at this point in time?
Should the public service MUX be put on the one channel (of the 4 available) least likely to affect spill-over UK reception?

Most of the analogue UHF allocations for TV3 were allocated to Ireland in the 1960s. However RTE network only began test transmissions on them only a few short weeks before TV3 launched in 1998. This is in stark contrast to current DTT testing where there has been much testing on channels and equipment destined to the commercial operator if/when it launches before any deal has been signed) with either 'empty' MUXes or duplication.

Unfortunately you have hit the nail on the head. This is motivated by classic small minded jealousy:

a) Ireland has wasted eleven VERY LONG years in not establishing a DTT system;

b) There has been a long history of separate technology choices from the UK with adverse consequences which destroys scale economies in the perverse interests of national TV sovereignty.

c) The competitive landscape has changed completely

d) A completely stupid distribution deal was signed by RTE with Sky

e) Freesat is overbuilding Irish distribution and will probably have 40% market share before long.

f) The decision to go down the MPEG4 T1 route looked clever a couple of years ago but is now trumped by the commercial rollout of T2 and scale economies which will inevitably flow from that. I know for a fact that the major STB vendors are focusing development resource on T2: they can see major markets coming. MPEG4 T1 is yesterday's technology because of the throughput gains with T2.

g) The political and regulatory thinking in Ireland is decidely amateurish on DTT policy.

h) RTENL are alienating the existing and growing DTT customer base in the country. And wrecking their own reception in the South East.

Its a case of 'We can't offer you our own trainset, so we don't want you running on anybody else's trainset'. And no commercial buyer wants their gauge.

A trainwreck in the making for RTENL , RTE, BCI and the Government. But so easily avoidable...

marclt · 04-12-2009 05:20PM

mrdtv wrote: »

Unfortunately you have hit the nail on the head. This is motivated by classic small minded jealousy:

a) Ireland has wasted eleven VERY LONG years in not establishing a DTT system;

b) There has been a long history of separate technology choices from the UK with adverse consequences which destroys scale economies in the perverse interests of national TV sovereignty.

c) The competitive landscape has changed completely

d) A completely stupid distribution deal was signed by RTE with Sky

e) Freesat is overbuilding Irish distribution and will probably have 40% market share before long.

f) The decision to go down the MPEG4 T1 route looked clever a couple of years ago but is now trumped by the commercial rollout of T2 and scale economies which will inevitably flow from that. I know for a fact that the major STB vendors are focusing development resource on T2: they can see major markets coming. MPEG4 T1 is yesterday's technology because of the throughput gains with T2.

g) The political and regulatory thinking in Ireland is decidely amateurish on DTT policy.

h) RTENL are alienating the existing and growing DTT customer base in the country. And wrecking their own reception in the South East.

Its a case of 'We can't offer you our own trainset, so we don't want you running on anybody else's trainset'. And no commercial buyer wants their gauge.

A trainwreck in the making for RTENL , RTE, BCI and the Government. But so easily avoidable...

Worth an email to the minister's office there I think, and maybe one to RTE/NL!

Any chance of finding out what power these DTT tests are? I can't imagine that the ones co-channel with Preseli Com muxes are high power.

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 05:27PM

marclt wrote: »

Worth an email to the minister's office there I think, and maybe one to RTE/NL!

Any chance of finding out what power these DTT tests are? I can't imagine that the ones co-channel with Preseli Com muxes are high power.

Note over on digitalspy its just been announced that Tesco expect to have Freeview HD boxes in the shops from the end of January having placed a massive order!!! However I suspect supply will be limited to begin with. I do however expect that Tesco power will trounce any RTENL technology choices.

It would be quite easy to work out the Mt Leinster ERP if somebody had a Horizon TDM DVB-T1 meter.

Sponge Bob · 04-12-2009 10:46PM

mrdtv wrote: »

U
a) Ireland has wasted eleven VERY LONG years in not establishing a DTT system;

+1

b) There has been a long history of separate technology choices from the UK with adverse consequences which destroys scale economies in the perverse interests of national TV sovereignty.

Not initially , Rev 1 DTT from 1998 - 2002 was compatible. Rev 2 was based on Nordig with MHEG5, a small software variant that is all.

c) The competitive landscape has changed completely

+1

d) A completely stupid distribution deal was signed by RTE with Sky

+1

e) Freesat is overbuilding Irish distribution and will probably have 40% market share before long.

What does that mean ???

f) The decision to go down the MPEG4 T1 route looked clever a couple of years ago but is now trumped by the commercial rollout of T2 and scale economies which will inevitably flow from that. I know for a fact that the major STB vendors are focusing development resource on T2: they can see major markets coming. MPEG4 T1 is yesterday's technology because of the throughput gains with T2.

Not really save that you will be as well off to get a UK T2 box even though there are no transmissions and better still a combined Freesat/Freeview HD with PVR , all in one.

g) The political and regulatory thinking in Ireland is decidely amateurish on DTT policy.

It is neandarthal, have you ever met O Rourke Dempsey and Ryan who presided over the mess along with their incompetent quangos in Comreg RTE and BCI .

h) RTENL are alienating the existing and growing DTT customer base in the country. And wrecking their own reception in the South East.

They were perfectly entitled to do this for two weeks or so. After that it gets tiresome. It could not have been done BEFORE ASO and the power increases .

A trainwreck in the making for RTENL , RTE, BCI and the Government. But so easily avoidable...

Avoidable around 1999 maybe , not now. The main reason is the commercial case.

bradshaw89 · 05-12-2009 02:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

aerial.

If you have a tv with a digital tuner in it-that will work straight away.

Hi, will the normal television connection from the aerial fit in the freeview box. cause its for my aunt who lives just outside Greystones Co.Wicklow and she is nervous about buying things online

mrdtv · 05-12-2009 02:45PM

bradshaw89 wrote: »

Hi, will the normal television connection from the aerial fit in the freeview box. cause its for my aunt who lives just outside Greystones Co.Wicklow and she is nervous about buying things online

Yes! Has to be the standard 75 ohm coax lead (not an F connector), then you have another TV lead into television from box + SCART connection. Let us know how you get on: aunts should always be helped!

bradshaw89 · 05-12-2009 03:01PM

mrdtv wrote: »

Yes! Has to be the standard 75 ohm coax lead (not an F connector), then you have another TV lead into television from box + SCART connection. Let us know how you get on: aunts should always be helped!

Thanks,

yea my aunt is gone to buy a sat for free box in woddies today and I'm goin to try and set it up for her later. I hope it works

mrdtv · 05-12-2009 03:04PM

bradshaw89 wrote: »

Thanks,

yea my aunt is gone to buy a sat for free box in woddies today and I'm goin to try and set it up for her later. I hope it works

Are you talking about Freeview or Freesat: big difference: dish vs aerial. Did she get Welsh analogue TV in which case she needs a Freeview box! If she has a dish she needs Freesat.

fat-tony · 06-12-2009 10:37PM

bradshaw89 wrote: »

Thanks,

yea my aunt is gone to buy a sat for free box in woddies today and I'm goin to try and set it up for her later. I hope it works

I'm in the Greystones area and I can help you out in testing whether a Freeview box will work in your aunt's location before you decide to buy anything. Don't buy a Freesat or Free to Air sat box if what you want is something that will work with your existing aerial. PM me if you want me to give you a hand. I thought I had seen in this thread or another one that you were offered a Freeview box by another poster?

Souriau · 06-12-2009 11:21PM

Is Freesat available all over Ireland or part of it?

fat-tony · 06-12-2009 11:38PM

Souriau wrote: »

Is Freesat available all over Ireland or part of it?

Hate to be picky but if you mean the satellite service, then yes, it's available all over Ireland. All you need is a dish and a suitable Freesat receiver.

If you mean Freeview - the UK terrestrial digital service, then no. It's receivable along the Wicklow and Wexford coastal areas (and some way inland depending on height etc.) with suitable aerials. Also available in some border areas.

A further complication - Irish terrestrial digital tv (the service with no name;)) is available around most of the main TV transmitters. But this service is not receivable with most "Freeview" branded receivers as it uses a later version of the compression technology (MPEG4 vs MPEG2) and it also uses a different version of teletext/interactive technology (MHEG5). You will need to do some research on TV models etc in this forum.

The Cush · 07-12-2009 02:12AM

fat-tony wrote: »

... and it also uses a different version of teletext/interactive technology (MHEG5).

No, they both use MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06.

prioryc · 07-12-2009 10:45AM

Antenna wrote: »

Whilst nearly everyone accepts all that, there is a perception (by posters here) that some UK DTT reception in the SE is being unnecessarily/needlessly being interfered with at this point in time

Should testing at present be confined to a single MUX destined to be the public service MUX at this point in time?
Should the public service MUX be put on the one channel (of the 4 currently available) least likely to affect spill-over UK reception?

Most of the analogue UHF allocations for TV3 were allocated to Ireland in the 1960s. However RTE network only began test transmissions on them only a few short weeks before TV3 launched in 1998. This is in stark contrast to current DTT testing where there has been much testing on channels and equipment destined to the commercial operator if/when it launches before any deal has been signed) with either 'empty' MUXes or duplication.

This morning i called to a Mr.Clarke @ rte.nl ...who i asked.. "when will my freeview tv channels come back?? what channels
his reply was didnt know they had gone!!!
& if i was getting top-up tv/espn & paying for it here.. that might be illegal too?? dont ask why im still puzzled on that !!
when i asked if our new irish dtt is wiping out our channels here could the same happen there (wales) ...his reply was "m m m i dont know yes maybe im not sure to I doubt it" etc
"oh and how are our (rte.nl) signals? are they good?"
..when asked when they would resolve this the reply was maybe maybe not as they are allocated by the e.u or someone ....and so he asked that if i was missing channels to E-mail him with the list and it would be looked into

so here you go affected Viewers (IRELAND & WALES)
E_MAIL : john.clarke@rte.ie

mrdtv · 07-12-2009 11:59AM

prioryc wrote: »

This morning i called to a Mr.Clarke @ rte.nl ...who i asked.. "when will my freeview tv channels come back?? what channels
his reply was didnt know they had gone!!!
& if i was getting top-up tv/espn & paying for it here.. that might be illegal too?? dont ask why im still puzzled on that !!
when i asked if our new irish dtt is wiping out our channels here could the same happen there (wales) ...his reply was "m m m i dont know yes maybe im not sure to I doubt it" etc
"oh and how are our (rte.nl) signals? are they good?"
..when asked when they would resolve this the reply was maybe maybe not as they are allocated by the e.u or someone ....and so he asked that if i was missing channels to E-mail him with the list and it would be looked into

so here you go affected Viewers (IRELAND & WALES)
E_MAIL : john.clarke@rte.ie

This might upset RTENL's technology strategy. Its reported the Freeview HD boxes will be around £70:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=495446&in_page_id=2&position=moretopstories

In addition on the www.dtg.org.uk there's an interview via BBC click where they give the roll-out schedule for BBC HD, ITV HD, 4HD and FiveHD. All coming next year.

So far there is no evidence of interference from Mount Leinster in North Devon to Preseli COM muxes but Wales may be a very different story.

07-12-2009 01:03PM

prioryc wrote: »

This morning i called to a Mr.Clarke @ rte.nl ...who i asked.. "when will my freeview tv channels come back?? what channels
his reply was didnt know they had gone!!!
& if i was getting top-up tv/espn & paying for it here.. that might be illegal too?? dont ask why im still puzzled on that !!
when i asked if our new irish dtt is wiping out our channels here could the same happen there (wales) ...his reply was "m m m i dont know yes maybe im not sure to I doubt it" etc
"oh and how are our (rte.nl) signals? are they good?"
..when asked when they would resolve this the reply was maybe maybe not as they are allocated by the e.u or someone ....and so he asked that if i was missing channels to E-mail him with the list and it would be looked into

so here you go affected Viewers (IRELAND & WALES)
E_MAIL : john.clarke@rte.ie

Lol
I should imagine Mr Clarke is not too concerned with the loss of UK spillover channels in Ireland.
He may be concerned to hear that Mt Leinster is interfering with presely in parts of wales though.

Unless onevision go kamakaze and decide that they want to throw money away on a pay dtt project thats doomed to failure due to the proliferation of freesat etc...

And thats highly unlikely.

Then RTÉ will eventually have to switch off 3 of the 4 muxes and settle for one mux.
Common sense would mean that they choose 39 as it ain't co channel with presely.
That way mpeg 4 tv's will have irish and UK dtt in wexford and of course irish and UK dtt in peacefull co existance acrosss much of leinster,ulster and connaught when brougher mtn and Divis go high power in 2012.

marclt · 07-12-2009 01:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol
Common sense would mean that they choose 39 as it ain't co channel with presely.
That way mpeg 4 tv's will have irish and UK dtt in wexford and of course irish and UK dtt in peacefull co existance acrosss much of leinster,ulster and connaught when brougher mtn and Divis go high power in 2012.

AMEN!

Shame we didn't get a word on how powerful the output is from Mt. Leinster... I'm not convinced it is travelling *that* well across the Irish Sea. Not in the same way analogue is. . .

mrdtv · 07-12-2009 01:51PM

marclt wrote: »

AMEN!

Shame we didn't get a word on how powerful the output is from Mt. Leinster... I'm not convinced it is travelling *that* well across the Irish Sea. Not in the same way analogue is. . .

It is being received in Wales along the coast but not in North Devon so it can't be all that powerful. Anyone with a proper meter can work it out.

mrdtv · 07-12-2009 05:05PM

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cure-for-our-ailing-media-comes-at-a-very-high-price-1957933.html

With 4 billion in spending cuts coming on Wednesday RTE will not escape the axe. The future of the tests must be very much in doubt in the real world alas.

marclt · 07-12-2009 11:12PM

any location on those reports, mrdtv?

Sponge Bob · 08-12-2009 12:40AM

Don't be daft MrDTV, 80% of the population is covered with gear they already commissioned

You cannot extend the commercial DTT case to all DTT.

mrdtv · 08-12-2009 09:59AM

marclt wrote: »

any location on those reports, mrdtv?

Being received in Fishguard but not in Ifracombe.

mrdtv · 08-12-2009 10:02AM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Don't be daft MrDTV, 80% of the population is covered with gear they already commissioned You cannot extend the commercial DTT case to all DTT.

Yes, but has it been paid for? They wanted a commercial operator to cover the capex and opex of rolling out a four mux network. That is not happening. If big cuts are indeed, as they must, coming at RTE there will be redundancies, cuts in operating costs, cuts in capital expenditure programmes, and cuts in services. Tomorrow is going to be interesting to say the least.

marclt · 08-12-2009 11:51AM

mrdtv wrote: »

Being received in Fishguard but not in Ifracombe.

Ah, that figures. Know that area very well, so there are very high gain aerials pointing inland to Preseli... but technically it is covered by it's own transmitter. Of course, there are some with aerials pointing out beyond Goodwick and Strumble Head for Mt. Leinster VHF/UHF too... and further up the coast.

Thanks for the confirmation.

mrdtv · 08-12-2009 03:28PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2009/12/ireland_the_reckoning.html

The tests cannot carry on much longer. With the Economist report today saying that Ireland could go bust next year (and its quite possible) I cannot see how RTE can avoid making major cost reductions as part of a brutal reduction in public spending. RTE may well be cut back to one TV and one radio service and obviously 'nice-to-haves' like DTT will simply be axed. This is also the fate of several CEE countries and, possibly, the UK, Greece and Spain next year. It looks like we are going back to the 50's/60's in TV. In such a pared down strategy a reduced DTT strategy is inevitable and alignment with our soon to be equally impoverished neighbour.

Digifriendly · 08-12-2009 08:22PM

mrdtv wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2009/12/ireland_the_reckoning.html

The tests cannot carry on much longer. With the Economist report today saying that Ireland could go bust next year (and its quite possible) I cannot see how RTE can avoid making major cost reductions as part of a brutal reduction in public spending. RTE may well be cut back to one TV and one radio service and obviously 'nice-to-haves' like DTT will simply be axed. This is also the fate of several CEE countries and, possibly, the UK, Greece and Spain next year. It looks like we are going back to the 50's/60's in TV. In such a pared down strategy a reduced DTT strategy is inevitable and alignment with our soon to be equally impoverished neighbour.

This is quite a doomsday scenario! Tomorrow's budget might indeed tell a similar tale. Let's wait and see.

marclt · 08-12-2009 09:13PM

mrdtv... you'll be telling me Santa himself is just a figment of my imagination!

But seriously - DTT in some shape or form will go ahead. The EU wide date is 2012... so there is still time. Commercial opportunities are few and far between and disposible income will be tight... a Freeview style arrangement will be the saving grace now, the infrastructure is there, but is the will to do it?

I fear we're going off on a tangent now, back to the Welsh DTT reception topic... !!!

Are the four muxes still on from mt. leinster??

prioryc · 09-12-2009 11:27AM

marclt wrote: »

mrdtv... you'll be telling me Santa himself is just a figment of my imagination!

But seriously - DTT in some shape or form will go ahead. The EU wide date is 2012... so there is still time. Commercial opportunities are few and far between and disposible income will be tight... a Freeview style arrangement will be the saving grace now, the infrastructure is there, but is the will to do it?

I fear we're going off on a tangent now, back to the Welsh DTT reception topic... !!!

Are the four muxes still on from mt. leinster??

2012 is the deadline which has been set by the European Union for switching off analogue terrestrial TV public service networks throughout Europe and Ireland has signed up to this date.

2012 is expected to see the switch off of the current analogue network used by RTE, TV3 and TG4 and their replacement by a digital terrestrial network.

and yes I'm still missing all but 2 welsh muxes since the start of testing here bbc is good/bbc radio is good ,rabbit,televisionx etc all work but none of the others...no sky3,dave,virgin,e4,c4,quest in other words all the half decent ones...
while on the subject of these channels if Rte think im going to now pay for what was free just to line their pockets too they have another thing coming
who in Ireland wants to pay for a licence & a new STB for 4 poor channels and a stupid subscription to some the likes of bbc/itv/e4 ....lets face it if Rte was half decent the country wouldn't of have to sell its soul to sky already!!

johnneyboy · 09-12-2009 12:25PM

mrdtv wrote: »

This might upset RTENL's technology strategy. Its reported the Freeview HD boxes will be around £70:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=495446&in_page_id=2&position=moretopstories

In addition on the www.dtg.org.uk there's an interview via BBC click where they give the roll-out schedule for BBC HD, ITV HD, 4HD and FiveHD. All coming next year.

So far there is no evidence of interference from Mount Leinster in North Devon to Preseli COM muxes but Wales may be a very different story.

yes uk hd freeview will be available in london and up north, at the end of this year but as for hd channel four and channel five hd from what i know its going to be subsription on sky only and from next five us and fiver are going cut backs, itv 2 3 4 may subsription to ,so happy days for freesat (bbc)

Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

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