Ever trained in two styles at once?

Lassard · 11-10-2009 11:43PM #1

Is it possible to train in two arts at once, i.e something like Tai Chi / Ba Gua
for self development and health, while at the same time practicing something
like boxing or combatives for pure self-defence ?
As these are like chalk & cheese, would they remain separate skills or start to meld with eachother?

Regards

Lassard

pearsquasher · 12-10-2009 11:58AM

From my own experience teaching and witnessing people from different martial arts training in what I practice, this can be a problem - but it depends on the martial arts being practiced and depends entirely on your attitude.

There's an expression though... "if a dog tries to chase two rabits, it will be sure to catch neither one".

Why not try a martial arts that has both self-defence AND self-development aspects built in? Most arts are sure to have some of both... it depends then on how deeply you train in the one art, the teacher you find, etc.

Niall Keane · 12-10-2009 01:11PM

"one hundred blades and none of them sharp", is an old Chinese expression.

Either Tai Chi Chuan, or Bagua Zhang, if practiced in the traditional manner, i.e. completely, with an emphasis on the martial and sparring would be more than sufficient, (forms were once only taught to senior students, so they could pass on all of the techniques, even the ones they didn't like, and strategies techniques placed beside each other in the forms that related to each other, counters etc.)

Both of these arts are related nei jia chuan, but personally I would recomend that you pick one, as having the time to learn and practice all of the skill training methods of both arts would be near on impossible. Sure you could learn say the formal tui shou methods of Tai Chi Chuan: single hand, four directions, fu yang, reeling silk, seven stars, nine palace, da Lu, Jou Lu and Cai Liang, add to this the free "wrestling" versions, fixed step, restricted step and moving step, add to this the san shou training methods gyrating hands, five element fist, rolling thunder palm, flying flower palm etc.. but having the time to practice them and therefore internalise them is the trick. A boxer will tell you that a simple punch has to be practiced over 1000 times to learn it, well like wise with the above save I would say, given that daily practice of 3000 rolling thunder punches over 20 minutes form the basic level of homework on that single technique, the time demanded to become proficient in the art is a serious commitment.
Bagua, although I'm not as familiar with it has a similar amount of drills and excercises, 8 animal fists, to be practiced at 3 levels and all the rou shou drills, walking the circle on blocks for balance, with blocks held aloft on the forearms for up to an hour.

Both arts have their own nei gung systems, without which the internal characteristics cannot be atained, the 24 Tai Chi Nei Gung I practice takes between 30 minutes to 2 hours to preform. Its preformed daily, 12 yin excercises and one yang one day, and the next 12 yang and 1 yin.

Hope this helps,

Niall

www.freewebs.com/sanshou

Horioni · 07-12-2009 02:09PM

Is it possible to train in two arts at once, i.e something like Tai Chi / Ba Gua
for self development and health, while at the same time practicing something
like boxing or combatives for pure self-defence ?
As these are like chalk & cheese, would they remain separate skills or start to meld with eachother?

Of course you can train in more then 1 art at a time.
Sure dont you learn 10 plus subjects when your in school.

But it depends on the person and how much they want to learn. If you go to a club mon and wed night for an hour and for the rest of the week switch off..
well you will be waiting a long time.

The Jack of All Styles and Master of None!

yomchi · 07-12-2009 02:39PM

Horioni wrote: »

Is it possible to train in two arts at once, i.e something like Tai Chi / Ba Gua
for self development and health, while at the same time practicing something
like boxing or combatives for pure self-defence ?
As these are like chalk & cheese, would they remain separate skills or start to meld with eachother?

Of course you can train in more then 1 art at a time.
Sure dont you learn 10 plus subjects when your in school.

But it depends on the person and how much they want to learn. If you go to a club mon and wed night for an hour and for the rest of the week switch off..
well you will be waiting a long time.

The Jack of All Styles and Master of None!

Hi mate, hope you are well

When you are quoting from another thread you can use the quote icon

and then paste your selected text in to it, it will high light your quote and make it easier to follow..

Like this

Niall Keane · 08-12-2009 12:09PM

Of course you can train in more then 1 art at a time.
Sure dont you learn 10 plus subjects when your in school.

Yes, and that qualifies you for the car wash. Know anyone to have studied Medicine, Law, Architecture, Engineering, Commerce, Pharmacology, Philosophy, Psychotherapy, Physics and veterinary all together at the same time?

Time is limited, and practice is the only secret. Most martial artists have come across those who have wasted their lives pursuing that elusive unbeatable ultimate technique / art that allows them to undeservingly beat trained and experienced fighters.

Unfortunately for the novice there exist more charlatans than people with real ability. And they know how to market their snake oil. For a fee you can pretend to be a martial artist, you'll find a group of likeminded individuals, people who want to be seen a martial artists but don't ever want to be tested. So there will be belt rankings, how else will you know how good you are? "advanced" weekend seminars where you can "easily" learn (sometimes with specially developed scientific techniques taught in the first 20 minutes of your introduction to martial arts) how to save your life, 8 x 1.5hour a week courses to train you how to deal with everything you could ever encounter (the fact that a boxer dealing ONLY with punches aimed ONLY above the waist spends years developing guard and power is of course blind sighted in this new killer scientific approach). Don't worry though you will never spar (sometimes you might dress up with gloves and reach out to tip each other politely out of fear of killing each other with your deadly art) mostly you'll be running through prearranged attack and defense sequences, maybe shouting as you punch etc. to simulate the aggression of "real" combat.
Anyway at the end of the class you'll feel fresher than when you went in, this is chi power, the fact that most athletes fight through pain to improve themselves really means that what they are doing is wrong, there is no need to break a sweat in real advanced martial arts!
So with such systems you should be more than able to mix a few in.
Finally expect to be told that should a situation occur where you may need to defend yourself or your family, just run away! You will get a round of applause in class for this. (to me this is like being taught how to swim, only to be advised that should you fall into a river better that you fold your arms and sink) The fact that almost every martial art classic highlights the importance of a venomous intent in surviving / winning martial confrontations will never be mentioned, for insurance reasons of course, but also the snake oil salesman master knows that he hasn't tested his moves out himself amongst his classmates, he knows that he bought his own black belt, and certainly doesn't want you to test out / expose his product "in the real world". That of course rules out competition too!
My advice: either find a complete art, (kick / punch / throw / weapons) this gives you options, or find a restricted but solid art – Muay Thai / boxing etc. Stick with the one art and try to perfect it. I know some Thai Boxers in Europe who fight in Sanshou they are useless at throws, but they know how to prevent throws, so they sprawl and sink etc. So their game is to upset the specialty of wrestlers, not to become a wrestler, and to win with their own scope of techniques…… it works.
To perfect your art should be the aim, even take the OP’s original suggestion, Ba Gua Zhang and Tai Chi Chuan, I think that although the arts are very similar in approach, there is not enough time to practice all the training methods required to internalize the methods and strategy of the arts. Better to spend an hour practicing either seven star step tui shou, or walking the circle, rather than half an hour on each.

cletus · 08-12-2009 12:37PM

quite a lot of guys here (or at least on the mma forum) would train in two styles at the same time, with little problem

whadabouchasir · 08-12-2009 12:41PM

I used to do Muay-thai and taekwondo at the same time.Now I do just Taekwondo.It's just too difficult to find the time to train in two martial arts even if the are somewhat similar.

Boston · 08-12-2009 12:46PM

I was recently thinking of taking up BJJ in addition to Judo and Jujutsu but didn't due to time restraints. Everything I do in Judo is applicable to Jujutsu which makes training in both a lot easier. I just have to keep in mind what I can't use in Judo Rendori.

mark.leonard · 08-12-2009 01:49PM

I train BJJ, Wrestling and Thai.
I focus more on one or the other at different times based on my goals. If you want ot make advances in one art you need to put the other in maintenance mode, enough training to not get rusty, and put all your effort into the area for improvement.

Horioni · 08-12-2009 02:09PM

Ive been training since the age of 7, which is 40 plus years, trained Physically in over 40 Styles and Studied many more through Book, Vid, DVD etc.etc.. I train every moment of my waking day... Nuff Said!

getz · 08-12-2009 02:10PM

there is no problem in training at more than one marital art at a time,the JKA [japan]have students training in ,judo,aikido,shotokan karate, at any time, i am a a teacher in goshin boxing ,shotokai, karate and have also trained on and off for 40 years in shotokan,i am also graded in aikido and judo,the more different styles you do ,will open your eyes and in them you are sure to find what works for you, its not all as black and white as some purists would like you to think,

Doug Cartel · 08-12-2009 02:11PM

At my old Judo club we had a good few guys who cross-trained in BJJ. Usually they would be serious about one and take the other as supplementation. Eg judo guys doing one BJJ class a week to work on groundwork/no-gi, or BJJ guys who wanted to get a better throwing game.

I would do judo most of the year and then BJJ when the judo was closed for the Summer (it was a uni club), but this was more due to convenience as I lived right next to the BJJ place.

I used to do muay thai before that, and for a while I tried to do both, but frankly my fitness wasn't up to it. I've been working on that, and now I think I might be able to manage it, but I'm so busy at work, I don't have time to go. Wamp, wamp, wawawa.

getz · 08-12-2009 02:36PM

question is,what do you wish to learn a marital art for ? sensai kanawazowa[i think thats how it is spelt]said there is two times in your life when you may need to know a marital art,one is when you are very young and the other is when you are very old,thats what i am 69 this week,many martial arts are only good for their job when you are young and fit,for instance would you expect a 69 year old to learn judo as a self defence? i do not think you would,its no good saying the classic,run away,how many pensioners do you know that can run fast enough, styles like aikido,that do not need a high level of fitness and manoeuvrability are good,in my own case i like the shotokan approach,hit them so hard they stay hit,i have been lucky in my life being able to learn other styles and the cultures that go with them,

crosstrainer1 · 08-12-2009 02:43PM

Lassard wrote: »

Is it possible to train in two arts at once, i.e something like Tai Chi / Ba Gua
for self development and health, while at the same time practicing something
like boxing or combatives for pure self-defence ?
As these are like chalk & cheese, would they remain separate skills or start to meld with eachother?

Regards

Lassard

It depends what systems you train in some systems blend well with outers ie Kali and thai boxing, savate and thai boxing, Jan fan and kali, kick boxing and thai boxing . I did train Akido and because it method of thinking is totaly diffent from any other way of fighting i found it hard to blend an agressive fighting system with a non agressive but insaying that i did find a commom link with filipino Kali so i will come back to it in due course as dan inosanto said at a seminar in 2005 if you dont find a way to develop it someone else will hope this helps

Niall Keane · 08-12-2009 02:54PM

techniques form part of every system, there are many that look very similar from system to system, but the form or shape of these techniques is slightly different born out of the systems preferences for certain methods of leverage and control, often due to environmental factors where the art has developed, some systems like to grip some to sweep, some grip with their forearms keeping "iron fists" clenched, some systems like arm locks, others like to trap legs and kneel into knees, the lever extents and fulcrum of the technique all slightly different. Some like lively high attacking methods, others low solid wrestling manoeuvres. This is what is meant by style.

Initially this won’t matter; initially you're useless in any case!

But if your style has a set of exercises those exercises have been developed, that is if the style is genuine, to enhance its strengths and internalize, or make second nature its preferred mechanics.
Even in a crude style of rolling up the tank and let the battle of attrition begin....you'll find it emphasizes standing on front of a heavy bag and pounding out combos for hours getting stronger and faster to beat the opponent.

Where the method isn't related to conquer fighting, there will be strategies within the style that set up the moves, e.g. the tai chi chuan classics state: "Once there is left there is right, once there is forward immediately there is back, or to put it another way if we raise something up then the intent exists to smash it down with increased force. Thus the roots will be severed and destruction will be swift and beyond doubt." So tai chi chuan specializes in diagonal type attacks with faints and draws leading the opponent astray, guard systems such as seven star guard both protecting range and entice certain attacks. The tui shou drills of the system develop the skills required to pull off this "soft" approach. The sanshou drills such as rolling thunder palm and gyrating arms work with this established approach, efficiently minimizing recovery of punching techniques. So rolling thunder works with seven star guard and hand stands on the fists to create a strong guard with powerful attacks that recover and relaunch quickly and efficiently. The classics state "Long Boxing (Tai Chi chuan) is like the great river rolling and surging without interruption" without the skills and strategy developed by the above drills the technique won't work, I saw this recently at the Sanshou Nationals where another stylist had tried to adopt a Wudang guard (no one else has ever used it at the comps) into his method, but his movements were stiff and unable to transform in a lively manner so it totally failed for him.
You can of course learn how to recover quickly, to be soft but not placid, to have "iron" fists by mixing other methods, but the training will not be coherent, the strategy lacking, and the likely hood of pulling it off slim. I.e. you will be trusting opportunity and luck relying on a weaker and slower opponent rather than using coordinated trained ability.

Conversely let me say that getting some "extra" sparring in down at a club that practices something similar is a very good idea, you will have a broader experience of techniques and strategies in your sparring partners, but to adopt the entire package of two systems I believe is too much to ask. The signature body mechanics based on strategic preference trained in one may very well contradict the other, and you end up: once there is left there is leaning, once there is forward there is over extension, and when we raise something up we fall over!!!

getz · 08-12-2009 03:21PM

Niall Keane wrote: »

techniques form part of every system, there are many that look very similar from system to system, but the form or shape of these techniques is slightly different born out of the systems preferences for certain methods of leverage and control, often due to environmental factors where the art has developed, some systems like to grip some to sweep, some grip with their forearms keeping "iron fists" clenched, some systems like arm locks, others like to trap legs and kneel into knees, the lever extents and fulcrum of the technique all slightly different. Some like lively high attacking methods, others low solid wrestling manoeuvres. This is what is meant by style.

Initially this won’t matter; initially you're useless in any case!

But if your style has a set of exercises those exercises have been developed, that is if the style is genuine, to enhance its strengths and internalize, or make second nature its preferred mechanics.
Even in a crude style of rolling up the tank and let the battle of attrition begin....you'll find it emphasizes standing on front of a heavy bag and pounding out combos for hours getting stronger and faster to beat the opponent.

Where the method isn't related to conquer fighting, there will be strategies within the style that set up the moves, e.g. the tai chi chuan classics state: "Once there is left there is right, once there is forward immediately there is back, or to put it another way if we raise something up then the intent exists to smash it down with increased force. Thus the roots will be severed and destruction will be swift and beyond doubt." So tai chi chuan specializes in diagonal type attacks with faints and draws leading the opponent astray, guard systems such as seven star guard both protecting range and entice certain attacks. The tui shou drills of the system develop the skills required to pull off this "soft" approach. The sanshou drills such as rolling thunder palm and gyrating arms work with this established approach, efficiently minimizing recovery of punching techniques. So rolling thunder works with seven star guard and hand stands on the fists to create a strong guard with powerful attacks that recover and relaunch quickly and efficiently. The classics state "Long Boxing (Tai Chi chuan) is like the great river rolling and surging without interruption" without the skills and strategy developed by the above drills the technique won't work, I saw this recently at the Sanshou Nationals where another stylist had tried to adopt a Wudang guard (no one else has ever used it at the comps) into his method, but his movements were stiff and unable to transform in a lively manner so it totally failed for him.
You can of course learn how to recover quickly, to be soft but not placid, to have "iron" fists by mixing other methods, but the training will not be coherent, the strategy lacking, and the likely hood of pulling it off slim. I.e. you will be trusting opportunity and luck relying on a weaker and slower opponent rather than using coordinated trained ability.

Conversely let me say that getting some "extra" sparring in down at a club that practices something similar is a very good idea, you will have a broader experience of techniques and strategies in your sparring partners, but to adopt the entire package of two systems I believe is too much to ask. The signature body mechanics based on strategic preference trained in one may very well contradict the other, and you end up: once there is left there is leaning, once there is forward there is over extension, and when we raise something up we fall over!!!

i am very impressed with your knowledge ,all i could add to it for any beginner is that ,in most cases of martial arts styles have been developed by the size and build of the people from the country it came from,so a large person may not be able to be as good as the smaller faster person of that style,so when taking up the art checkout if you fit it,also not enough time is spent in footwork and strong stances,[the tree is only as strong as the roots ]or as a daft old sensai from okinawa said once to me,;there is more to a duck than feathers and a quack !!!

Ever trained in two styles at once?

Comments