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The Irish Famine

13567…11

Comments

  • #62
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    sneakerfreak wrote: »
    Census figures are eluding me,as far as I know census figures were collected by the British Authorities and showed a large annual increase of population year by year until the "Potato Famine" but no census was organised for a large number of years before the Górta Mór making putting a correct figure on the amounts dead impossible but very likely more than is claimed.The Jewish "Oxygen Famine" may have killed 6 million but this is not a competition,mass murder is mass murder.
    To be honest I find it difficult to come to terms with the fact that most Irish people think it was just a potato blight,you cannot have a famine when there is an overabundance of food in a country.

    The Jewish "Oxygen Famine"

    Is that supposed to be funny?


  • #63
    6th
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    enfant terrible wrote: »
    The Jewish "Oxygen Famine"

    Is that supposed to be funny?

    Please lets not drag this up months after it was posted.


  • #64
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    mysterious wrote: »
    The thing is, to have a population of 8.1 million to half that, is not some food issue or some deficit.

    It was planned.

    The english crown has been helbent on trynig to wipe out for 900 years for more than saving their own deficit issue I can assure you. From my perspective its precisely why the UK and USA keep ireland on the monitor to this day. Our own government are at their knees to the british and US powers of be. Now Europe.

    They made sure we were dependant on one crop, and then put the blight on it and bam, sure enough our dependance on the one food became our biggest killer.

    It happened, so I think its very suiteable to make it a conspiracy theory. The same way JFK was shot. People want to get to the bottom as to why this was done.
    the potato blight was all over europe,ireland was in a poor position because it depended on a staple diet of potato,yes food was exported out of the country by the farmers,because they wanted to make money,and the irish people could not pay for it themselves,the only people who could feed you was the charities, in fact over 3 million irish were fed through soup kitchens, no goverment of the day [at that time would put its hand in its own pocket to feed the masses] all the irish members of the british parliament were the ones who were exporting the food,even when irish men and woman ,went to canada,USA and the UK,it was dependent on the charities to feed them, in canada the lack of food was still killing them[100,000 entered canada yet one in every five died] just what the death rate in the US and england was ,i dont know,


  • #65
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    6th wrote: »
    Please lets not drag this up months after it was posted.

    Didn't see it mentioned anywhere else in the thread that's why I brought it up


  • #66
    Bruce2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bruce2008


    The reason, correct me if I am wrong, or if you just disagree with me, is that the farmer renting his land grew potatoes mainly to feed his family... most other crops and produce were sold to pay his rent for the land... up comes the blight... potatoes are rotten but he still has to pay his rent.... so he still sells his other produce, hence the amount of food being shipped abroad during the famine, otherwise he will be kicked off his rented land... no food for families then widespread famine...

    Sorry to be so basic about such a disaster but what happened, happened...

    the response by the authorities may leave alot to be desired but to look for a conspiracy theory here is disrespectful to the victims of the famine... lifestyle and society caused and added to the disaster... nothing else...


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  • #67
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    so he still sells his other produce, hence the amount of food being shipped abroad during the famine, otherwise he will be kicked off his rented land... no food for families then widespread famine...

    His other "produce" is food, so why would starving people sell food unless they were forced to?

    but to look for a conspiracy theory here is disrespectful to the victims of the famine

    What disrespects the "famine" and it's victims is ignoring that it wasnt really a famine.


  • #68
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Crowhill wrote: »
    an often ignored fact is that there were many organisations INCLUDING British (not just Choctaw Indians) ones that set up relief organisations to help the catastrophe occuring in Ireland at the time of the famine.

    As per usual it was the wealthy screwing over the poor to make a profit. Not "The" English, not "The" British, but the same breed of rich and powerfull people who have been screwing their fellow man since time began.

    but keeping in line with the topic, I suspect the evil kiniving Brits were threatened by the superior Irish intelect and trade and therefore tried to kill us all off. I think the British Gov't introduced a genetically modified spud that rotted away on itsself. An idea that was stolen from a covert "bog lab" in Longford, but was being researched for peacefull uses, like fending of alien invasion. (jeez I could go on all day like this, must visit this forum more often, it's catchy........)

    Its a zombie thread but thought this was worth pointing out.

    Many a rich Irishman was willing to buy property at cheap prices after the Famine and amassed fortunes from it. Eddie Hobbs discovered this in his "Who do you think you are" programme.

    It wasn't just the Brits, plenty of Irish willing to prey on the misfortune of others.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #69
    Bruce2008
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bruce2008


    asdasd wrote: »
    His other "produce" is food, so why would starving people sell food unless they were forced to?.

    If they didn't sell it they would not be able to pay the rent and then they would be evicted.... no house no farm no chance of ever being able to grow anything to feed themselves again...and the only futher was being seperated from each other in a poor house...

    If they sold the other produce they paid the rent and kept the house and farm with the hope of surviving until the next crop of potatoes... which unfortunately failed aswell...

    Nobody sold produce and starved to death that very same day.... they tried to keep a roof over their heads and get something out of the ground to survive...



    asdasd wrote: »
    What disrespects the "famine" and it's victims is ignoring that it wasnt really a famine.

    And who is ignoring it wasn't really a famine???

    People starved due to the potatoe crop failing... their food was gone.... they died of starvation.... thats called famine in anyones terms... who is denying this??


  • #70
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    they died of starvation.... thats called famine in anyones terms... who is denying this??

    Me, if they had food to sell then there was no famine. The system made them sell the food.


  • #71
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    asdasd wrote: »
    Me, if they had food to sell then there was no famine.

    I wasn't aware the the definition of famine was tied to the production of food. I always thought it was the availability.

    I guess this means that in our global world today, there is no famine. After all, we produce enough food to feed everyone.


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  • #72
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    I wasn't aware the the definition of famine was tied to the production of food. I always thought it was the availability.

    You're wrong. In any case the food was readily available for the people who produced it. In real famines ( as I have written on this thread) people in cities die because cities are always in food deficit.
    After all, we produce enough food to feed everyone.

    Famines are always localised. When famines happen it is because that place is not producing enough food. Ireland was producing enough food.

    We've been through this on this thead a number of times.


  • #73
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Bruce2008 wrote: »
    If they didn't sell it they would not be able to pay the rent and then they would be evicted.... no house no farm no chance of ever being able to grow anything to feed themselves again...and the only futher was being seperated from each other in a poor house...

    If they sold the other produce they paid the rent and kept the house and farm with the hope of surviving until the next crop of potatoes... which unfortunately failed aswell...

    Nobody sold produce and starved to death that very same day.... they tried to keep a roof over their heads and get something out of the ground to survive...





    And who is ignoring it wasn't really a famine???

    People starved due to the potatoe crop failing... their food was gone.... they died of starvation.... thats called famine in anyones terms... who is denying this??
    people did not die of starvation,they died because with the shortage of food the body could not fight the rampent disease, remember there was two famines one in 1739-41 this one killed one third of the population, the population of that time was 1.5 million,the second was between 1846-51,i have no figure of the number who died at that time ,but i do know over 1.5 million emigrated, some canadian goverment ministers believed , quote,its their own fault,they refused to change,i dont know if they ment ,having large families or depending too much on a diet of potatoes,


  • #74
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    asdasd wrote: »
    You're wrong.

    I may well be. I was more hoping you could show me why Im' wrong, rather than simply restating the definition that you've already claimed is correct. Can you show me why yours is the correct interpretation....where it came from, so to speak.
    In any case the food was readily available for the people who produced it.
    It wasn't readily available. That was the problem. Indeed, some of the posters (such as samson09) who have arguedf that it wasn't really a famine have also argued that the people produced it and then it was taken off them. Something which has been taken off you isn't readily available to you any more.

    This is partly why I believe that distribution issues are a key factor. Its not just a question of whether or not enough food was produced in the locale...its whether or not that food could be distributed. Indeed, if you look at it from a different perspective, you can have a largescale failure (or absence) of food production which doesn't lead to a food shortage...but a largescale failure of food distribution will always do so. The common definition (as far as I can find) of a famine is a widespread, severe food shortage.....not a localised failure (or absence) of food production.
    When famines happen it is because that place is not producing enough food.
    They happen because food production and/or distribution fail. That a place doesn't produce enough food doesn't mean it will suffer famine. Cities don't produce enough food to feed themselves, but that doesn't mean that every city in the world is suffering from famine.

    That food cannot be distributed to an area means it will suffer this fate.

    The Irish produced food, which was subsequently taken from them. As a result, there was a widespread, severe food shortage, caused by a failure in food distribution.
    We've been through this on this thead a number of times.

    No...we haven't. It has been stated a number of times that "it wasn't really a famine". No-one has actually gone to any lengths to show why their interpretation of famine is correct.

    From my looking around, famine is a widespread food shortage. It can be a distribution problem, or a production problem. Additionally, I've yet to see any sort of scholarly work insisting that the Irish famine (or any other distrubtion-related famine) was merely "widespread starvation caused by food distribution" and not "famine".

    I'm not saying I'm right...I'm asking for a reason to understand why I'm wrong. Re-iterating what has opened me to the possibility that I might be wrong isn't what I'm asking for...which is why I don't believe we ahve been through this a number of times already.

    At the end of the day, its mostly irrelevant, though. As said the first time that someone brought this up, its clear what event is being referred to when people talk about The Great Famine. If you disagree that it was a famine, it doesn't change that people still know what event was being referred to. Call it the Great Irish Widespread Starvation Caused by a Lack of Available Food Because The English Took It Away". Then, go and defend the moniker against teh likes of getz, who'll point out that starvation wasn't really the issue, but rather the susceptibility from disease caused as a result of malnourishment.

    And so on and so forth. Sooner or later, instead of a title for a book, you'd end up with book as a title. Someone could then suggest something short-and-snappy by which to refer to this (like, say the Great Irish Not-Famine) and the whole game could start over again.


  • #75
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    could never understand how people living on an island surrounded by water
    filled with fish,died of hunger:confused:

    If they had no potatoes, why didn't they eat cake?

    :rolleyes::rolleyes:


    It was a man made famine, not a natural one. Most famines are. Just because one crop failed shouldn't mean that a significant proportion of a population starves.

    Starvation and destitution occured because of the way society was organised and because of the rules to which the rulemakers insisted everybody else played.

    Namely: tenant farmers had no tenure rights on their property, they had limited potential to develop their holdings as businesses, they were supposed to be subsistence farmers and when they experienced problems, well that was too bad--it was their lookout. There was no duty on society to intervene at all.

    I don't think it was a conspiracy as such, just a phenomenal example of what can happen in the most fertile and abundant of countries when those in charge consider that there is no duty of care required to the most vulnerable people in society.

    Interesting parallels with today include the priorities that were placed on solving the problem. The first act of Parliament to deal with the issue was the Encumbered Estates Act.

    This sought to relieve the landlords of their burden as the first priority. The poor dears were suffering financially because the tenants were too busy starving and fleeing the land to be able to pay rent and the incomes of landlords plummeted. The Encumbered Estates Act facilitated the transfer of these estates into the posession of people with new money, who were for the most part not ancient aristocratic families but Victorian entrepreneurs who had made their money in the new industries of the 19th century.

    Many of them were Irish. Some of them were Catholics, recently emancipated and keen to partake in the opportunities that the empire was offering.

    A lot of these guys realised that the main encumbrance on their estates were the non productive tenants and so many of these were evicted as rapidly as possible.

    Check back on the dates of your history. When was the Land League in operation? The Land War? All in the last quarter of the 19th century. When was Michael Davitt's family evicted for being in arrears with rent? In 1850, AFTER the Famine.

    The facts and folk memory of the famine, which were not always the same thing, led to the Irish revolution and informed the route it took via Constitutional Nationalism and militant separatist republicanism.

    Fast forward to today. The country is in a financial crisis. Who must be baled out first? The financiers. The shocking unfairness of what is about to transpire will likely lead to a new revolutionary strain of politics with many ideas gaining respectability that would have been thought anathema in the Laissez Faire era ushered in by Thatcher and Reagan which is finally being exposed for the chicanery it was.

    Maybe in years to come conspiracy theories will see this financial meltdown as being a conspiracy by whoever emerges as top dog to effect a change in the world order. I wonder who it will be? Technocrats? Ecologists? Climatologists? Space explorers?

    Who cares. I'll be long gone by then.


  • #76
    Lorelei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Lorelei


    Bear in mind following
    1. The potato blight occurred throughout northern europe. It was the reliance on a single crop that caused the disaster in Ireland.
    2. I thinks the Quakers amongst others were English.
    3. Actually a lot of english peasants earlier days and workers in the industrial times starved.
    4. It wasnt the english who came over in the 1100s the lot who came across couldnt speak english they were norman french who had just beat the hell out of the english.

    By the way my family emigrated from Galway due to the famine. So I do have an axe to grind we lost lands that had been ours for centuries.


  • #77
    Lorelei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Lorelei


    DON'T you know its the ILLUMINATI they planned all this a thousand years ago! And aren't they good at keeping secrets no one knows who they are or were only they are following a grand plan and their members are all over the world.


  • #78
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Lorelei wrote: »
    DON'T you know its the ILLUMINATI they planned all this a thousand years ago! And aren't they good at keeping secrets no one knows who they are or were only they are following a grand plan and their members are all over the world.

    It goes back even further than that, it goes back to the fallen ones and their bloodlines. It's some grand plan. :) Whether your with them or not, and that's been brutally honest. All the major operations on the planet are very aware of whats going on and will happen in the next 6 years. One bumpy road we are going on.

    It's pretty much everywhere, from the Mayas, Hopi tribes, Egyptians, Hebrews and other ancient civilzations. They are all aware of what is happening, but we are not been informed. For the simple reason we are here inform ourselves and find out under our own authority.


  • #79
    MrDanSimo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭MrDanSimo


    so this has gone from the irish famine....to an irish genocide...and now its on the Illuminati and their grand plan!?

    What a jump!


  • #80
    MrDanSimo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭MrDanSimo


    bump!


  • #81
    Lorelei
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Lorelei


    Not a jump at all!!
    The Illuminati planned the whole thing, everyone knows that!!!!
    Don't they ?


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  • #82
    pixiegaga
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭pixiegaga


    wow that thought never occured to me....but their was all the food being shipped out of the country almost like britian was punishing us....

    kind makes you think..:p


  • #83
    sambongo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭sambongo


    ‘Idle as trout in light Colonel Jones
    these Irish, give them no coins at all; their bones
    need toil, their characters no less.’ Trevelyan’s
    seal blooded the deal table. The Relief
    Committee deliberated: ‘Might it be safe,
    Colonel, to give them roads, roads to force
    from nowhere, going nowhere of course?

    ‘one out of every ten and then
    another third of those again
    women – in a case like yours.’

    Sick, directionless they worked fork, stick
    were iron years away; after all could
    they not blood their knuckles on rock, suck
    April hailstones for water and for food?
    Why for that, cunning as housewives, each eyed-
    as if at a corner butcher – the other’s buttock.

    ‘anything may have caused it, spores,
    a childhood accident; one sees
    day after day these mysteries.’

    Dusk: they will work tomorrow without him.

    They know it and walk clear. He has become
    a typhoid pariah, his blood tainted, although
    be shares it with some there. No more than snow
    attends its own flakes where they settle
    and melt, will they pray by his death rattle

    ‘You never will, never you know
    but take it well woman, grow
    your garden, keep house, good-bye.’

    ‘It has gone better than we expected, Lord
    Trevelyan, sedition, idleness, cured
    in one; from parish to parish, field to field;
    the wretches work till they are quite worn.
    then fester by their work; we march the corn
    to the ships in peace. This Tuesday I saw bones
    our of my carriage window. Your servant Jones.’

    ‘Barren, never to know the load
    of his child in you, what is your body
    now if not a famine road? ‘

    Eavan Boland


  • #84
    GarlicBread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭GarlicBread


    Read a few of the posts, sorry if i repeat anything.

    I listened to a debate on the radio about the famine the other day on newstalk, it was bizzare and disturbing. They were talking about the armenian genocide and saying if turkey accepts it, then britain would have to take responsibility for what happened here. They were also saying that the potential for scandal was so great that it must be dealt with not as a crime, but just as a matter of historial accuracy.

    Then i heard the figure of 5 million dead irish people and all the guests went mad and the presenter had to cool em all down. I was thinking, well, this is a different story to the one i was told in primary school and the story i was never told at all in secondary school. Even though it happened along time ago, this is actually quite shocking.

    Now, before i go any further i will say that this is a matter of establishing the facts and not politically motivated, so lets keep cool heads please even if the finger of blame has to be pointed.

    One of the guys on the radio was from irishholocaust.org and he was saying as a matter of fact that over 5 million irish were murdered. No one was debating the figures, but they seemed concerned about the way in which it was presented. And understandably so, i think its hard to stomach myself.

    So, i checked out the site and its pretty factual. It would appear the scale of the event was covered up by britain and the irish authorities for many reasons down through the years and is potentially britains dirtiest secret. This would explain the controversy surrounding it and the reluctance of our educational system to fully grasp it and teach it, particularly at secondary level.

    We had almost 12,000,000 people in 1846.
    Heres a quote from the site which has detailed and stark figures -

    "Thus; though from 1845 through 1850, 6,257,456 "disappeared," the number murdered is approximately 1.1 million fewer; i.e., 5.16 millions. Consequently; if Britain's census figures for Ireland are correct the British government murdered approximately 5.16 million Irish men, women and children; making it the Irish Holocaust. This number, 5.16 million, exceeds the high end of the range (4.2 to 5.1 million) of serious estimates of the number of Jews murdered by Nazis."

    Seems like it wasnt just a million and a half people that died of starvation. It was a full blown depopulation attempt that took out 50% of us out. Thats the equivalent of 35 million british, 150 million americans and over half a billion chinese.

    Look, we all know how bad we got treated in the past, and it was a long time ago, but if it is true that at a point the british ruling class actually did try to wipe us off the face of the planet and almost succeeded then it is totally horrendous and should be adressed. Even if it would rock the anglo-irish relations boat a bit (pretty unsinkable at this stage you would think?).

    Anyhow, the radio show ended with everyone bitter and the presenter stressed. It was elluded to by the presenter that more is to come on the issue, and i hope so. No wonder they dont teach it to us properly in school, we cant put in our history books because britain dosent put it in theirs, cause they covered up that **** nice and good for 150 years. The british military was all over us exporting food the whole time and there is mountains of further shocking evidence which can only lead one to the conclusion that yes, it was genocide.

    If in 1996 legislation was passed for schools in New York to offically call it genocide, then what the hell are we doing about it here? Whats to be afraid of? Arnt we grown up enough to have our own history sylabis separate from Britain?

    Id be mildy republican at best, was born in england to irish parents, father was in the british army, have family that were in the ira and have a wide variety catholic and protestant relatives from above and below the boarder so i am not coming at this issue with any political bagage(or too much bagage lol?).

    This didnt happen in the middle ages, it happened to our grandparent's grandparents. So i beg the question, if the british state(not the people) genocided 5 million irish people then should we at least ask them, for the sake of decency, to properly apologise and to change their historical record so that we can change ours and finally get some closure to somthing that should have been closed a long time ago?

    Or, has it been covered up for so long and the wound still so raw it is better to just let it go perhaps?

    I feel the official story of 1 million irish people starving to death because they were retarded is unacceptable and the truth of it should be taught in irish and british schools alike.

    Blairs lame apology which he didnt even personally speak only accounts for the official story which is more or less proven to be bunk since it underestimates the death toll by 5 fold and never mentions the british army. Id say they are ashamed and want it to go away, and i dont blame them. Then again, it was an apology, which in fairness must have been hard to come out with.

    Politics aside, we nearly got completely annihilated and it got covered up. Even by remarkably low british imperial standards, that was a seriously nasty hammerblow to the collective irish testicles.

    IMO OUCH!?


  • #85
    Truthrevolution
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭Truthrevolution


    Reality is usually completely different to the fantasy world we are thought about in school, its only when you start doing your own research that you realise there are a whole lot of other inconvenient truths out there, it really is fascinating.I was always interested in history and its one of the only school subjects i liked.But i feel somewhat let-down by the curriculum of history and what it (failed to) teaches us.For me its not that shocking that royal aristicratical families enforced a depopulation agenda and wiped millions from our country, it could just as easy happen today and people would not see it coming.Tbh i reckon in 100 years time people will be laughing at society today and wonder why we believe such blatant lies, why we fight false wars in the middle east, why we fall for the same ridiculuos false flag stories, why we cant feed the third world, why we butcher and burn our cancer patients etc.


  • #86
    Torakx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    I read a letter from a famous person addressed to the royals of Ireland back around the famine times.
    He had a bleeding recipe he got from an american for cooking children around 1 year old.Pretty crazy stuff if true.He proposed they eat the poor children so they are not a burden on the state.
    Could have been all faked,wish i had even the name of the writter or poet or whoever it was now :(
    Maybe someone here knows off the top of their heads.


  • #87
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    I think what you are referring to is the essay by Jonathon Swift called a modest proposal.

    Available Here: http://books.google.com/books?id=JHcfb8cyr3YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=a+modest+proposal&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

    I should point out that it is an extemely effective but satirical work.


  • #88
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    This is from Jammy Dodger's Expand Your Horizons Forum and I have to admit it was news to me too.
    BenjAii wrote: »
    I have to say, I'd never heard of this before ever, so am a little credulous. Would love to hear if anyone has more information on this.

    The story being that Cromwell between 1651-60 sold somewhere between 50,000 - 100,000 Irish women and children into slavery in the Caribbean.


    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0863222870?ie=UTF8&tag=moonpoint&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=0863222870

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=65222051


  • #89
    enno99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭enno99


    The slaves included not only Africans but men arrested after a Royalist uprising in the West Country in 1655, and Irish Catholics captured by Oliver Cromwell

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6185756.stm


  • #90
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    enno99 wrote: »
    The slaves included not only Africans but men arrested after a Royalist uprising in the West Country in 1655, and Irish Catholics captured by Oliver Cromwell

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6185756.stm

    Cromwell's Irish Genocide was financed by City of London merchants, the same group who are pulling the strings today.


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  • #91
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,485 ✭✭✭Denerick


    So much rubbish on this thread. It leads me to think that 90% of you are parodists. Calling the Irish famine a genocide is ridiculous and only displays your complete lack of acquaintance with that period of history.


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