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Joseph Moshe - Arrested in LA by FBI for Going Public about Vaccine

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  • #62
    Duiske
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Duiske


    bonkey wrote: »
    I think you've picked something up wrong somewhere along the line.

    This particular strain of Swine Flu is a new strain. Swine flu as a general classification is not new.

    So its incorrect to say that swin flu is "entirely new". This particular pandemic strain is new....but there are a myriad strains already in existence, and given the mutability of influenza in general, its pretty certain that there will be a myriad more.

    Just to back this up, some commercials from the US (1976).


  • #63
    macshadow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭macshadow


    Joseph Moshe is alleged to have made a threat to the white house, does anyone know what the threat was and where and to whom the threat was made?


  • #64
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    bonkey wrote: »
    I think you've picked something up wrong somewhere along the line.

    This particular strain of Swine Flu is a new strain. Swine flu as a general classification is not new.

    So its incorrect to say that swin flu is "entirely new". This particular pandemic strain is new....but there are a myriad strains already in existence, and given the mutability of influenza in general, its pretty certain that there will be a myriad more.

    The research was also about a strain of swine flu...a genetically engineered one.

    There is no evidence (nor, I would argue, reason) to suggest that these two strains are one and the same, any more then there is to suggest that these guys paper somehow indicates that the 1918 Spanish Flu (another strain of Swine Flu, incidentally) was also genetically engineered, and that it took 80 years for the genetic engineering to come to light.




    Are we discussing the probability of the swine flu being man made here?


  • #65
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    squod wrote: »
    Are we discussing the probability of the swine flu being man made here?

    Most people i know are willing to believe the vaccine and flu was created in same lab.


    I don't see why not. I mean if we can get millions around the world to react like this, it's perfect mind control and mass fear materialisation hypergame. Roll the dice is the starting point. The pawns are then forced to make a move or stay on thier spot. Thats how I see it.


  • #66
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    macshadow wrote: »
    Joseph Moshe is alleged to have made a threat to the white house, does anyone know what the threat was and where and to whom the threat was made?
    He allegedly made a threat to bomb the White House. When spotted by the police, he drove off to a federal building and the cops seemed to be expecting another Oklahoma bombing.


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  • #67
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Is reality stranger than fiction? or is it the other way around? After reading some of this stuff, I'm suddenly glad I refused the Swine Flu vaccine. Will we have an ''I am Legend'' film scenario with this? Crap! I even have a female German Shepherd.


  • #68
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    squod wrote: »
    Are we discussing the probability of the swine flu being man made here?

    I was pointing out a logical non sequtor, which appeared to be based on a simple lack of understanding regarding flu strains.

    So no, I wasn't discussing any probability.


  • #69
    macshadow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭macshadow


    humanji wrote: »
    He allegedly made a threat to bomb the White House. When spotted by the police, he drove off to a federal building and the cops seemed to be expecting another Oklahoma bombing.

    But where is the evidence that he did actually make a threat to bomb the white house?
    It has been reported that he gave advance warning of what is now unfolding in the Ukraine, why is it most people find it more believable that he made a threat to bomb the white house?
    Is he physic, regardless of which Joseph Moshe he actually is?


  • #70
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    macshadow wrote: »
    But where is the evidence that he did actually make a threat to bomb the white house?

    It has been reported that he gave advance warning of what is now unfolding in the Ukraine, why is it most people find it more believable that he made a threat to bomb the white house?
    This thread was started back in August.

    Back then, as can be seen in the first two posts, there were two claims circulating:

    1) He allegedly said Baxter were going to do something to their swine-flu vaccine
    2) He allegedly made threats regarding the White House.

    Note...his call to the original show wasn't aired, and wasn't recorded. In effect, both claims rely on second-hand recounting.

    Roll on to November. Now we're told that he predicted what is happening Ukraine, or that he allegedly made threats regarding the White House.

    It seems to me that one of the two claims has remained constant over hte past 4 months, and one has changed significantly.
    Is he physic
    If someone can show me a report predating the outbreak of events in Ukraine, where Moshe is attributed with saying that this woul dhappen, I'll give that serious consideration.

    So far, all I've been able to find is people saying after the fact that this is what Moshe predicted...that he explicitly mentioned Baxter's Ukrainian lab (which, as far as I can determine, doesn't exist), and that his claim wasn't about the vaccine but about a new, engineered strain, or that it was about the vaccine, and that somehow things leaked (which isn't what he predicted), or something else. But back in August, it was all about how Baxter were building something into the vaccine.

    So seriously...if someone could supply me a link, with a verifiable date of August or September, attributing to Moshe warnings about Ukraine....I'd be really interested, because otherwise it all smacks a bit of retrofitting.


  • #71
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    mysterious wrote: »
    Most people i know are willing to believe the vaccine and flu was created in same lab.


    I don't see why not. I mean if we can get millions around the world to react like this, it's perfect mind control and mass fear materialisation hypergame. Roll the dice is the starting point. The pawns are then forced to make a move or stay on thier spot. Thats how I see it.


    Have you read my posts over here?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63140842&postcount=65

    And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria..........The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany...........On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.
    “It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.


    Toronto Sun


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  • #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bonkey wrote: »
    So seriously...if someone could supply me a link, with a verifiable date of August or September, attributing to Moshe warnings about Ukraine....I'd be really interested, because otherwise it all smacks a bit of retrofitting.

    I asked the same question and got this:
    EXODUS251022 wrote: »
    POST#3

    From this link above http://pimpinturtle.com/2009/08/21/the-strange-case-of-joseph-moshe.aspx

    The information is this: The ******* is being manufactured in Ukraine. It is not a ******* at all, but rather an engineered genetically mutated bio-weapon meant to cause sickness and death. Moshe informed the White House he intended to go public with this information. When he became aware that the FBI was about to detain him, he packed some belongings in his car and set out for the Israeli consulate, located in close proximity to the federal building where the standoff took place. FBI pursuit kept him from reaching his destination.


    From this site (which seems to be the same copy pasta article) it says this info was from a internet forum.
    According to a recent post in the forums of GodlikeProductions.com The suspect taken into custody was one Joseph Moshe, heres an excerpt from the thread as written by HL SHANCKEN
    User ID: 574264
    8/15/2009 11:37 PM.

    Further more it also say that that post was getting info from else were.
    The information comes from one of my confidential sources. I have reason to believe it is accurate. If I receive more information I will post it.

    So the fact is neither Moshe didn't say anything about the Ukraine.
    Nor did anyone predict any outbreak of a virus.

    A anonymous source quoting another anonymous source claimed was that an unnamed vaccine that's produced in the Ukraine is in fact a bioweapon.
    A very different thing that's being claimed now.


  • #73
    macshadow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭macshadow


    bonkey, there is link to a report dated 21 august in the "pneunomic plague in Ukraine" thread, post number 2. It says Moshe wanted to give evidence to a states attorney regarding Baxter's Ukrainian lab producing a bioweapon disguised as a vaccine.


  • #74
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Thanks. I'll see its an audio report, so it'll have to wait till this evening before I can get it.

    As a matter of interest...how, exactly, is a bioweapon disguised as a vaccine, made in a lab that (as far as I can tell) doesn't exist a prediction of an outbreak of what might be a more virulent mutation of H1N1?

    Other then the country matching, there's not much "crossover". Baxter have offices in the Ukraine, but not a lab, for a start...unless I'm mistaken.


  • #75
    macshadow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭macshadow


    bonkey wrote: »
    Thanks. I'll see its an audio report, so it'll have to wait till this evening before I can get it.

    As a matter of interest...how, exactly, is a bioweapon disguised as a vaccine, made in a lab that (as far as I can tell) doesn't exist a prediction of an outbreak of what might be a more virulent mutation of H1N1?

    Other then the country matching, there's not much "crossover". Baxter have offices in the Ukraine, but not a lab, for a start...unless I'm mistaken.

    It's not an audio report, it's in the sixth link down on post 2(sorry i'm not good at posting links)
    A bioweapon could be disguised as a vaccine in the way that has been documented by Jane Burgermeister at www.theflucase.com which is 100% factual and baxter have accepted this, where an absolutely deadly batch of contaminated flu vaccine was sent to 16 countries and was only discovered by an astute lab worker who tested it on guinea pigs. Using biosafety level 3 regulations would make it impossible for the above to happen.
    I'm not sure what you mean by a prediction of an outbreak of what might be a more virulent mutation of H1N1.
    Read the prediction by Joseph Moshe dated august 21.


  • #76
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    macshadow wrote: »
    It's not an audio report, it's in the sixth link down on post 2(sorry i'm not good at posting links)
    My bad. I was looking at the wrong link.

    Thanks.
    A bioweapon could be disguised as a vaccine in the way that has been documented by Jane Burgermeister at www.theflucase.com which is 100% factual and baxter have accepted this, where an absolutely deadly batch of contaminated flu vaccine was sent to 16 countries and was only discovered by an astute lab worker who tested it on guinea pigs. Using biosafety level 3 regulations would make it impossible for the above to happen.
    There's a number of problems with this claim.

    Biosafety level 3 regulations were used, and it happened, so its not impossible. There are a number of possibilities to consider, but no matter whether we decide that it was deliberate or accidental (or we're undecided), the first thing is that we must accept that its possible to claim something was BS3-compliant and for something like this to happen.

    So BS3 is perhaps insufficient, perhaps corruptible, perhaps not properly controlled. No matter which of those options we look at, it allows for both accidental and deliberate options.

    Don't get me wrong...I'm the first to stand up and agree that Baxter are at least criminally negligent in this affair...but I'm not so sure that its an easy step to go beyond that and conclude that it was deliberate based on the evidence at hand.
    I'm not sure what you mean by a prediction of an outbreak of what might be a more virulent mutation of H1N1.
    Read the prediction by Joseph Moshe dated august 21.

    There are two events to compare here:

    1) The allegations allegedly made by Moshe. (I'm working it this way because only one person spoke to him, didn't record the conversation, didn't put it on air, and repeated the claims afterwards. It doesn't really matter whether Moshe made the claim or someone else did, though, because the claim was made by someone.)

    2) The events which have been observed in Ukraine. What has been observed in Ukraine is an outbreak of some disease. Some people say its "just" the pandemic strain of flu, with the initial observations being skewed due to a poor medical system rife with corruption. Others say its a mutation of this flu with two other seasonal variants. Others say its some sort of "escaped" bioweapon.

    The allegations made in August involve a Baxter lab in Ukraine. As I've repeatedly stated - this doesn't seem to exist.
    This claim was about something which was going to work via vaccination...but there is effectively no active vaccination program in Ukraine.
    This claim was about a delivery mechanism of a vaccine, not of a disease. The events in Ukraine appear to be a transmissable flu / disease.

    Other than Ukraine being a common factor, there seems to be nothing linking the two, and even then they require the existence of a lab which doesn't seem to exist. The aforementioned case linked to Baxter was to do with vaccines from their Austrian lab, IIRC.


  • #77
    macshadow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭macshadow


    "other than ukraine being a common factor" Is that not enough, he could have picked any number of countries. I think we should track him down and ask him if he wouldn't mind helping us to pick six numbers between 1 and 45:D


  • #78
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    bonkey wrote: »

    The allegations made in August involve a Baxter lab in Ukraine. As I've repeatedly stated - this doesn't seem to exist.

    The aforementioned case linked to Baxter was to do with vaccines from their Austrian lab, IIRC.

    … The results of the analysis showed that in the material delivered by Baxter to those 106 laboratories, two live viruses coexisted.
    http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Non-food/Disease/major_victory_with_swine_flu_scandal_191120090720.html


    In fairness I don't expect every large company to have opperations in every country of the world. In this instance it's highly likely that a contractor was acting for Baxter, as BioTest was for the Czech region.

    Having worked for very large companies myself I've seen many takeovers, buy-outs, and mergers take place with parent companies having little involvement in the day to day of their accuired companies. Much less a name change which can be troublesome .


  • #79
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    macshadow wrote: »
    "other than ukraine being a common factor" Is that not enough,

    In my book...no, its not enough.

    He specified a number of things...location, company involved, method of delivery, and so on. Discarding the majority of those to "match" just one of the factors is not enough.
    I think we should track him down and ask him if he wouldn't mind helping us to pick six numbers between 1 and 45:D

    If someone "predicted" teh lotto for you, and got 2 of the 6 numbers right...would you ignore the 4, and conclude that their prediction was accurate?


  • #80
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    squod wrote: »
    In fairness I don't expect every large company to have opperations in every country of the world. In this instance it's highly likely that a contractor was acting for Baxter, as BioTest was for the Czech region.

    Having worked for very large companies myself I've seen many takeovers, buy-outs, and mergers take place with parent companies having little involvement in the day to day of their accuired companies. Much less a name change which can be troublesome .

    So, basically, if we assume that Baxter are behind things, we can conclude that the prediction that Baxter were behind it was accurate....

    I'd agree with that 100%.


  • #81
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    Facilities in the United States
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]California, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ontario, Quebec, and Puerto Rico.[/SIZE][/FONT]

    Facilities in Europe
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Malta, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey, and the United Kingdom.[/SIZE][/FONT]

    Facilities in [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Latin America
    [/SIZE][/FONT]    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica and Mexico.

    [/SIZE][/FONT]Facilities in [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Asia Pacific[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Japan, China, North Asia, Australia/New Zealand and India/Southeast Asia.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE][/FONT]Hmm I don't see any official company in the country of Ukraine?


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  • #82
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE][/font]Hmm I don't see any official company in the country of Ukraine?


    So then Baxter don't own, opperate, have interests in or contract any other companies other than those called Baxter. Prove it.

    It's common for companies to own other companies by different names. From my own part the research arm of my previous employer went by a different name other than the one listed over the door. Ask any accountant about this common practise if you like.


  • #83
    imstrongerthanu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭imstrongerthanu


    Have you done any research and found any labs that are offshoots of Baxter in the Ukraine?


  • #84
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Have you done any research and found any labs that are offshoots of Baxter in the Ukraine?


    You made the claim you back it up.


  • #85
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    squod wrote: »
    You made the claim you back it up.

    Do you think you should also apply this standard to people claiming that Moshe's claim was accurate, thus requiring that Baxter do have interests there?

    ETA : I think you'll also find that the only claim that imstrongerthanu made was that he didn't see any official company in Ukraine....a claim which he did back up, by providing the list of countries that he did see.


  • #86
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    squod wrote: »
    You made the claim you back it up.

    Squod it amazes me the number of times you fail to see that you're the one making claims or supporting those making the claims. The onus is on you and the others making those claims to prove that Baxter has any connection with the Ukraine, so far it looks like they don't.


  • #87
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    squod wrote: »
    So then Baxter don't own, opperate, have interests in or contract any other companies other than those called Baxter. Prove it.

    It's common for companies to own other companies by different names. From my own part the research arm of my previous employer went by a different name other than the one listed over the door. Ask any accountant about this common practise if you like.

    The claim is that a Baxter lab in the Ukraine is responsible. Surely the original claim can be traced back to this lab.

    The onus is on the person making the claim, not on the person disproving it. If they are confident it was a Baxter or Baxter subsidiary they they should surely be able to name the lab, and give an address.


  • #88
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    bonkey wrote: »
    Do you think you should also apply this standard to people claiming that Moshe's claim was accurate, thus requiring that Baxter do have interests there?

    ETA : I think you'll also find that the only claim that imstrongerthanu made was that he didn't see any official company in Ukraine....a claim which he did back up, by providing the list of countries that he did see.
    meglome wrote: »
    Squod it amazes me the number of times you fail to see that you're the one making claims or supporting those making the claims. The onus is on you and the others making those claims to prove that Baxter has any connection with the Ukraine, so far it looks like they don't.


    If either of you think this is a one way street you're wrong. Again I see people not contributing one iota, bar sniping dismissing. Dismiss all you want, but you'll have to come up with usefull arguments for doing so.

    That means researching your counterclaim and standing over it. All I've done so far is post some links. Research and disprove those links all you want.


  • #89
    Diogenes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭Diogenes


    squod wrote: »
    If either of you think this is a one way street you're wrong. Again I see people not contributing one iota, bar sniping dismissing. Dismiss all you want, but you'll have to come up with usefull arguments for doing so.

    That means researching your counterclaim and standing over it. All I've done so far is post some links. Research and disprove those links all you want.

    I am once again left nearly speechless by someones claim on this forum. I can only hope you are never at the mercy of a court that works off your concept of the ideal of "burden of proof".


  • #90
    bonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    squod wrote: »
    If either of you think this is a one way street you're wrong. Again I see people not contributing one iota, bar sniping dismissing. Dismiss all you want, but you'll have to come up with usefull arguments for doing so.

    That means researching your counterclaim and standing over it. All I've done so far is post some links. Research and disprove those links all you want.

    Hold on a second...the counterclaims made are :

    1) The claims being made ignore the fact that the details don't match. Evidence of this has been shown.

    2) There is no evidence to support the claim being made, regarding Baxter having a lab in Ukraine. It's impossible to actually show "no evidence". What one can show is that the evidence which can be found doesn't support the claim...which has been done.

    This isn't sniping. These are valid, salient points. The details do not match, and there is no evidence that a Baxter lab exists. I'm at a loss to understand what your objection is to thee points.

    ETA:
    For the record, I certainly don't think this is a one-way street. I believe that perspectives both for and against the allegations have a place here, and should be held to a similar standard. Wouldn't you agree?


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  • #91
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    The results of the analysis showed that in the material delivered by Baxter to those 106 laboratories, two live viruses coexisted.


    imstrongerthanu wrote: »
    Facilities in the United States
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]California, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ontario, Quebec, and Puerto Rico.[/SIZE][/font]

    Facilities in Europe
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Malta, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, Tunisia, Turkey, and the United Kingdom.[/SIZE][/font]

    Facilities in [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Latin America
    [/SIZE][/font]    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica and Mexico.

    [/SIZE][/font]Facilities in [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Asia Pacific[/SIZE][/font]
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Japan, China, North Asia, Australia/New Zealand and India/Southeast Asia.[/SIZE][/font]
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE][/font]Hmm I don't see any official company in the country of Ukraine?


    I'm seeing thirty something facilities and one hundred and six deliveries.


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