How do atheists have morals?

doctoremma · 09-10-2009 03:52PM #1

Hello.

Do any of you guys visit Richard Dawkin's website forum? I ask because someone over there linked to you guys today. Well, not to you guys specifically, more to the "Christianity" board. Anyway, I wandered over to have a peek and found a new "Atheism" forum

And again, hello!

So, my question. Can an atheist have morals? As an atheist and I think a nice person, I say "yes". I have many thoughts about how to answer this question when it's posed to me but I was wondering if you guys had any drop-dead responses. I usually argue from a biological altruism POV.

And to extend that, what are the questions that annoy you most about atheism? And your responses?

(OK, I admit, I'm gathering resources for my next encounter

)

CerebralCortex · 09-10-2009 03:58PM

My favourite is along the lines of:

"So without God to punish you, you would <insert heinous crime here>?"

edit - Welcome to the A+A forum.

hammerfan · 09-10-2009 03:59PM

I think all atheists have morals. The theists are the ones who don't - they need a rule book ( bible, koran etc..) to tell them how to behave.

Blackhorse Slim · 09-10-2009 04:03PM

I agree with hammerfan, a better question would be whether theists have morals. If you follow rules to avoid an eternal punishment and in the hope of gaining a reward, is that truly moral? It seems purely self-serving to me.

Goduznt Xzst · 09-10-2009 04:09PM

It's a pity the search feature has been disabled, I could of linked to a handful of interesting threads here about this subject.

Morality comes under a completely different area outside of being an Atheist, and can vary in opinion depending on the individual.

First you need to define what kind of morality you are talking about. Is it objective? Is it universal? Does the individual believe in Divine command theory. Are they a moral relativist or moral nihilist (<-that's me)... etc and that's only really scratching the surface.

Just know that there are no "drop-dead responses", it's as subjective a subject as which flavor of ice cream you prefer.

Personally though if a Christian said to me: "As an Atheist you cannot have morals"
I'd retort: "Christian morals? You're damn right I don't. My morality goes beyond self serving kindness to secure myself with immortality"

Edit: Damn you Blackhorse Slim and your ninja skills

Rev Hellfire · 09-10-2009 04:10PM

Most of the major religion contain rules/morals which conform to the society/time they operate in.

Its a two way street as far as who's influencing who in my view, though my moneys on the herd dictating to the religion more than the other way around.

Max Power1 · 09-10-2009 04:11PM

hammerfan wrote: »

I think all atheists have morals. The theists are the ones who don't - they need a rule book ( bible, koran etc..) to tell them how to behave.

+1

I dont need some old book or cloak and dagger magic tricks to tell me how to live my life

Galvasean · 09-10-2009 04:11PM

I'm of the opinion that a non-believer who acts morally is much more genuine than a religious person who acts morally. The non-believer doesn't have the prospect of eternal damnation lingering over his/her head to inspire them into doing good deeds. To them it is just what they do/the way they are.

From an evolutionary perspective studies have been done which have shown how morality has developed over time. When we look at apes their primitive societies are based around a sort of moral code. Similarly, we can observe such behaviour (albeit less developed) in 'leser' species like monkeys.

studiorat · 09-10-2009 04:15PM

Atheist here! No morals at all. Think I'll treat myself to an extra baby at dinner this evening...

darjeeling · 09-10-2009 04:25PM

Followers of the main monotheistic faiths have morals because they use their morals to interpret what people a long time ago who had morals wrote down about morality. Or, more straightforwardly, religion offers an ancient moral code, reinforced with supernatural threats and inducements, which can be selectively mined in accordance with the very different morality of today's society.

Many religious people tell themselves that they are actually following some objective and eternal divine moral law, but as we don't believe in their religions, we don't believe this is true. They are, in fact, doing just the same as the rest of us.

Where morality comes from is a different question, but it's one that we all must answer, not just those who don't follow a religious faith.

seamus · 09-10-2009 04:31PM

Biological altruism here I would say too. Without going too deeply into it, I firmly believe that almost everyone, most of the time, wants to act in a way that best serves their community. The individual will often act to get short-term gain for themselves, but rarely to the detriment of their community.

A small subset of people will always act to benefit themselves regardless of the community's wishes, and an even smaller subset will always act to benefit the community regardless of their own situation.

This wish to benefit the community is the basis of the notion of morality, and is the reason why people can be inspired en masse to commit "immoral" acts - because the act is seen as beneficial to their community. This explains how (and why) the bible is littered with celebratory tales of horrific acts.

Dades · 09-10-2009 04:33PM

doctoremma wrote: »

Hello.

Welcome!

doctoremma wrote: »

what are the questions that annoy you most about atheism

doctoremma wrote: »

Can an atheist have morals?

doctoremma · 09-10-2009 05:00PM

Sorry if I get this completely wrong - biology more my thing, philosophy attempted usually when drunk:

I would always link biological altruism with moral absolutism - to take the simplest example, it is not biologically a good idea to go around killing members of your species willy nilly. But some people think that morals are relative, suggestive that the premise "do not kill" has been decided on as a "good rule" (a "golden rule", I guess). This, I perceive, is where religious people get involved - who decided that "do not kill" was the "right" way to live?

Can moral relativism be reconciled with a biological basis for morality?

(Does that last question even make sense?)

Zillah · 09-10-2009 05:02PM

Atheist or believer, "moral" or no, you're all wretched creatures that would eat each other given half a chance/reason.

As a smoker who went into work today without cigarettes I'm going to be pouring my irrational fury into the internet rather than my coworkers. Pity the search function is down, you could have followed the trail of burning forums in my wake.

Would that be deemed immoral behaviour?

hammerfan · 09-10-2009 05:03PM

Tell you what annoys me most about atheism, at least the Dawkins version of it, is how it has become a religion in itself. It's the atheist fundamentalists, like Dawkins, who really get on my t*ts. His brand of atheism carries all the negative, self-righteous finger-jabbing aspects of religion but offers none of the benefits.

doctoremma · 09-10-2009 05:06PM

hammerfan wrote: »

Tell you what annoys me most about atheism, at least the Dawkins version of it, is how it has become a religion in itself. It's the atheist fundamentalists, like Dawkins, who really get on my t*ts. His brand of atheism carries all the negative, self-righteous finger-jabbing aspects of religion but offers none of the benefits.

I don't know you at all so not sure if you're joking or not... I hope the first sentence, at least, is a display of your fine sense of irony...

Atheism a religion? Please say you don't mean this...

robindch · 09-10-2009 05:12PM

doctoremma wrote: »

Can an atheist have morals?

If one were to be pedantic and use one of the more common definitions of "moral" which implies a fixed, conservative, decision-making, value-assigning social framework which based upon some current or past interpretation of one or more religious books, then I'd imagine that most atheists are probably fairly free of morals.

And most would probably think that's a good thing too.

opinion guy · 09-10-2009 05:14PM

How do atheists have morals ?

Same way as anyone else. By choosing to.

QED

hammerfan · 09-10-2009 05:14PM

doctoremma wrote: »

I don't know you at all so not sure if you're joking or not... I hope the first sentence, at least, is a display of your fine sense of irony...

Atheism a religion? Please say you don't mean this...

Depends how you define religion I suppose. But the way people use the phrase "religious zeal" to describe someone who goes around banging on about their belief in something or other, could be applied equally well to persons such as Dawkins.

robindch · 09-10-2009 05:16PM

hammerfan wrote: »

His brand of atheism carries all the negative, self-righteous finger-jabbing aspects of religion but offers none of the benefits.

Well, it may not make people very happy if they've invested large chunks of their life's political, intellectual and emotional capital in a wild goose chase handed down to us, generation to generation, from the Bronze Age and beyond.

But again, it's quite arguable that this is a good thing too.

Reality is still out there whether or not one chooses to shut one's eyes and go la-la-la with lots of other people of a Sunday morning.

bnt · 09-10-2009 05:24PM

The term "morals" can be a bit loaded, depending on precisely what you think it means. I associate it with following orders rather than "doing the right thing", and so it amuses me to shock people by telling them "I have no Morals." Instead, I have Ethics.

Zillah · 09-10-2009 05:26PM

opinion guy wrote: »

How do atheists have morals ?

Same way as anyone else. By choosing to.

QED

Watched the Matrix last night or something?

hammerfan · 09-10-2009 05:32PM

robindch wrote: »

Reality is still out there whether or not one chooses to shut one's eyes and go la-la-la with lots of other people of a Sunday morning.

I've got no problem with people going la-la on Sunday if it makes them feel good and they get a chance for a natter afterwards. I don't like it when people get angry if their neighbour doesn't share their brand of la-la, or worse if they use their la-la as an excuse to pick a fight with someone.

If religion is defined as belief in god(s) then surely atheism should be a non-belief, meaning you don't need to go around shouting about what you believe in.

Turtwig · 09-10-2009 05:33PM

Yes indeedy,

If animals can have morals, so can atheists.:)

Sorta On topic:
I know it's my second time mentioning it, but this book supposedly explores animals that care for one another and things we can learn from them.

Also, I mentioned these in others posts...(think it was the creation thread) but it's pretty much a scientific fact that lots of animals have moral values.
Even piranhas!!:eek:

Turtwig · 09-10-2009 05:37PM

hammerfan wrote: »

If religion is defined as belief in god(s) then surely atheism should be a non-belief, meaning you don't need to go around shouting about what you believe in.

Of course not, but religion it seems like to control EVERYTHING, ever had someone give out to you for eating meat? Religion, because believers perceive it as the truth is constantly proselytised and we're excepted you either all shut up about it and live our lifes according to the way they want to.

It's our planet too ya know..

robindch · 09-10-2009 05:45PM

hammerfan wrote: »

If religion is defined as belief in god(s) then surely atheism should be a non-belief, meaning you don't need to go around shouting about what you believe in.

If religious people kept mum about it, then the word atheist would slip into oblivion overnight and this forum would close.

Unfortunately, religious people regard it as their sacred, express duty to bring their religion everywhere and some atheists don't like this and object to it.

Try going to Saudi and seeing if you fail to develop a deep sense of injustice at the level of nasty religious coercion going on.

JimiTime · 09-10-2009 05:47PM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

My favourite is along the lines of:

"So without God to punish you, you would <insert heinous crime here>?"

edit - Welcome to the A+A forum.

hammerfan wrote: »

I think all atheists have morals. The theists are the ones who don't - they need a rule book ( bible, koran etc..) to tell them how to behave.

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

I agree with hammerfan, a better question would be whether theists have morals. If you follow rules to avoid an eternal punishment and in the hope of gaining a reward, is that truly moral? It seems purely self-serving to me.

Max Power1 wrote: »

+1

I dont need some old book or cloak and dagger magic tricks to tell me how to live my life

You all miss one of the biggest Christian arguements. Its not about the rule book. Most will argue, that because we 'ALL' have morals, atheist, theist, deist alike, that it shows that we appeal to a greater justice for want of a better term. CS Lewis talks about it in 'Mere Christianity'. I have never heard a christian say that 'Atheists can't have morals' or whatever. The atheist having morals 'Helps' our arguement. (An arguement btw I wont get into). Just clearing up the misconception.

hammerfan · 09-10-2009 05:51PM

Yep, agree religion likes to control everything - it's the ol' church & state thing. That's where Ireland got it so wrong, too many cardinals telling the politicians what to do.

CerebralCortex · 09-10-2009 05:55PM

JimiTime wrote: »

You all miss one of the biggest Christian arguements. Its not about the rule book. Most will argue, that because we 'ALL' have morals, atheist, theist, deist alike, that it shows that we appeal to a greater justice for want of a better term. CS Lewis talks about it in 'Mere Christianity'. I have never heard a christian say that 'Atheists can't have morals' or whatever. The atheist having morals 'Helps' our arguement. (An arguement btw I wont get into). Just clearing up the misconception.

No not really, not if you think about for a short time.

Dades · 09-10-2009 05:57PM

hammerfan wrote: »

If religion is defined as belief in god(s) then surely atheism should be a non-belief, meaning you don't need to go around shouting about what you believe in.

No doubt you're now off to the Vegan & Vegetarian forum to tell them that just because they don't eat meat - they should shut the hell up too.

Sam Vimes · 09-10-2009 05:59PM

bnt wrote: »

The term "morals" can be a bit loaded, depending on precisely what you think it means. I associate it with following orders rather than "doing the right thing", and so it amuses me to shock people by telling them "I have no Morals." Instead, I have Ethics.

Same here. When I heard of ethics I think of people doing good things for others and not killing them etc and when I think of morals I think of people poking their noses in other people's business

How do atheists have morals?

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