Richard Dawkins on Real Time with Bill Maher

Dave! · 05-10-2009 03:59PM #1

Hey folks,

For those of you unfamiliar with Bill Maher: a. shame on you, b. he's an atheist, liberal, hippy, etc., talk show host. He's had Chris Hitchens and Sam Harris on the show previously. He also made the documentary Religulous. Ohhh that guy ! Yeah him

Anyways there's not been alot of new threads in this forum for a while, so might as well spice it up with a bit of Dawkins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxFf0RYC9ZA

Not a great interview at all, but always worth a gander...

Pacifico · 05-10-2009 04:01PM

Poor interview alright....Dawkins looked really uncomfortable....

Rest of that episode was quite good though!!

5uspect · 05-10-2009 04:30PM

The trouble with Maher is his wacko views on medicine.

Maher won the Richard Dawkins award at this years Atheist Alliance International Convention.
http://www.atheistalliance.org/Latest/Report-on-ASH-of-Malawi-National-Conference.html

There was a lot of criticism of this decision:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/aai_evening_award_ceremony.php

MrPudding · 05-10-2009 04:57PM

I thought he was agnostic...?

MrP

adamd164 · 05-10-2009 07:15PM

He is; he describes atheism as a position of faith. As said above, he also pushes quack non-medicine.

But Religulous was quality to be fair.

ChocolateSauce · 05-10-2009 07:43PM

He's also on the board of PETA. PETA!

His politics are sound, his views on religion are enlightened, but he isn't perfect. Just goes to show you that irrationality isn't exclusive to the superstitious.

Zillah · 05-10-2009 09:35PM

From bits and pieces I've heard from him he sounds like a Deist. Huge critic of religion, still pretty crazy anyway.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 05-10-2009 10:51PM

Strange how a discussion supposedly about religion can turn into one about people who 'hate the west' living in 'crappy countries' with apparently worse education than the US. Who or what are they talking about?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 06-10-2009 12:27AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECI4QK_mXA

hitchens

Zillah · 06-10-2009 03:48AM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECI4QK_mXA

hitchens

Hitchens for tyrannical atheist dictator.

James74 · 06-10-2009 07:58AM

Pacifico wrote: »

Poor interview alright....Dawkins looked really uncomfortable....

Rest of that episode was quite good though!!

Poor interview...but it was still better than that Late Late Show effort.

rugbyman · 06-10-2009 08:02AM

"he describes atheism as a position of faith."

good point , may have to re evaluate myself

Rugbyman

OK-Cancel-Apply · 06-10-2009 10:17AM

I don't get why so many people have so much time for Hitchens. He's a dishonest neo-con twat.

Zillah · 06-10-2009 07:36PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I don't get why so many people have so much time for Hitchens. He's a dishonest neo-con twat.

Advocating an interventionist foreign policy does not a neo-con make. He has in fact explicitly rejected the title.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 06-10-2009 09:08PM

Well he's certainly an apologist for the Bush administration and the Iraq war.

Carpo · 06-10-2009 10:55PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Well he's certainly an apologist for the Bush administration and the Iraq war.

I was fundamentally opposed to Hitchens views on these matters. Nevertheless, I watched a series of videos on youtube in which he described and defended his beliefs in this regard. It was the most eloquent and well thought out portrayal of the view from the other side of the fence I have seen, before or since. Watching these videos, I was forced to reconsider and reevaluate my own thoughts on these subjects. In the end, I arrived at more or less the same conclusions I had before hand, but they were now better considered and thought out then they had been.

To dismiss Hitchens as a 'dishonest neo-con twat' or a Bush apologist is to, quite simply, miss an opportunity.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 06-10-2009 11:28PM

Carpo wrote: »

I was fundamentally opposed to Hitchens views on these matters. Nevertheless, I watched a series of videos on youtube in which he described and defended his beliefs in this regard. It was the most eloquent and well thought out portrayal of the view from the other side of the fence I have seen, before or since. Watching these videos, I was forced to reconsider and reevaluate my own thoughts on these subjects. In the end, I arrived at more or less the same conclusions I had before hand, but they were now better considered and thought out then they had been.

To dismiss Hitchens as a 'dishonest neo-con twat' or a Bush apologist is to, quite simply, miss an opportunity.

So he's not a dishonest neo-con twat, he just moves in mysterious ways?

Sounds like you are assuming that I haven't thought this out. Why does Hitchens deserve the time of day? Why shouldn't I call him a twat? He is just one of many people who tries to defend the indefensible, who tries to make a case for the Iraq war which has needlessly killed over 1.1 million people so far. Why even try to defend Hitchens? Is it just because he's and atheist? What more can I say that Galloway didn't say when he reduced him to a stuttering mess and exposed him as the slimeball he is...

I don't know why, as atheists, we feel the need to build new deities for ourselves.

Carpo · 07-10-2009 12:10AM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

So he's not a dishonest neo-con twat, he just moves in mysterious ways?

Sounds like you are assuming that I haven't thought this out. Why does Hitchens deserve the time of day? Why shouldn't I call him a twat? He is just one of many people who tries to defend the indefensible, who tries to make a case for the Iraq war which has needlessly killed over 1.1 million people so far. Why even try to defend Hitchens? Is it just because he's and atheist? What more can I say that Galloway didn't say when he reduced him to a stuttering mess and exposed him as the slimeball he is...

I don't know why, as atheists, we feel the need to build new deities for ourselves.

Deities? As I said above, even after listening to his arguments I still disagree with him (I also find him quite rude and unlikeable if that helps). That being said I do not assume that arguments for contrary opinions to my own should be dismissed out of hand or have no merit. Of course, if you think that all he has to say in this regard is utterly devoid of any merit and not worth any consideration, even in it serving to improve your own point of view, then good for you.

stevejazzx · 07-10-2009 09:47AM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

So he's not a dishonest neo-con twat, he just moves in mysterious ways?

Sounds like you are assuming that I haven't thought this out. Why does Hitchens deserve the time of day? Why shouldn't I call him a twat? He is just one of many people who tries to defend the indefensible, who tries to make a case for the Iraq war which has needlessly killed over 1.1 million people so far. Why even try to defend Hitchens? Is it just because he's and atheist? What more can I say that Galloway didn't say when he reduced him to a stuttering mess and exposed him as the slimeball he is...

I don't know why, as atheists, we feel the need to build new deities for ourselves.

You almost got everything right until you mentioned George Galloway.
The Saddam handshake aside Galloway reducing someone else to a slimeball is a new one for me. Hitchens backed the Iraq war in a way which was far removed from what the Iraq war was really about. Hitchens backs the removal of rogue, dangerous states. He is obviously extremely vigilant in his atheistic views and this carries through in his foreign policy ideas also. His mistake was that the Bush administration were never going to really commit to any kind any democratic rebuilding of the middle east. They just wanted get Saddam out, secure oil futures set rebuilding contracts and throw together some form of Iraq self rule. They were never interested in going further than that, Hitchens 'idealism' was never realized. It's hard to imagine Hitchens being so naive until you consider his vigilance on such matters. The fact that he cared and had seen, after spending a considerable amount of time in the middle east, the horrors there for himself is what makes ignore this side of his character because it is so obviously flawed.

However some of his books on atheism are fantastic and he is easily one of the best debaters on the subject you're likely to find. He is often obnoxious, frequently rude, sometimes far too rhetorical but ultimately delivers a tirade of criticism on religion that is so apt and vicious that it becomes the perfect anecdote to all the softly softly diplomacy we get over here so often.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 07-10-2009 10:26AM

Carpo wrote: »

Deities? As I said above, even after listening to his arguments I still disagree with him (I also find him quite rude and unlikeable if that helps). That being said I do not assume that arguments for contrary opinions to my own should be dismissed out of hand or have no merit. Of course, if you think that all he has to say in this regard is utterly devoid of any merit and not worth any consideration, even in it serving to improve your own point of view, then good for you.

Why do you assume I've never heard Hitchens try to defend his views? He defends his views every time he argues them.

Just going back to what you said earlier:

I was fundamentally opposed to Hitchens views on these matters. Nevertheless, I watched a series of videos on youtube in which he described and defended his beliefs in this regard. It was the most eloquent and well thought out portrayal of the view from the other side of the fence I have seen, before or since.

Sorry for the Godwin, but Hitler was a great orator. But regardless, I've heard Hitchens try to defend his viewpoint before, and he came across as a very lost and confused man.

I don't see how anything short of Hitchens renouncing his abhorrent views would change my opinion of him. Sure, he may occasionally say black is not white, but then so does just about everyone.

And to watch him in that video above try to shield poor helpless George Bush, the biggest killer of the 21st century, from a few jokes about his IQ is really disgusting. So what if most of the audience isn't smarter than Bush -- it's an observation not worth making unless you are trying to build some sort of defence for the man. And I see he is repeating that lie about Iran wanting to 'wipe Israel off the map'. This man has a pro-war agenda. He fits the neocon bill perfectly-- an ex-lefty who became bitter and angry when middle-age set it.

So what if he makes witty or cutting remarks about religion from time to time? Why should that alone be a reason for atheists to hold him up as one of its representatives?

Rev Hellfire · 07-10-2009 10:31AM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Why should that alone be a reason for atheists to hold him up as one of its representatives?

Because atheism only is interested in his opinion on religion. His views on bush, war etc are immaterial.

stevejazzx · 07-10-2009 10:36AM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Why do you assume I've never heard Hitchens try to defend his views? He defends his views every time he argues them.

Just going back to what you said earlier:

Sorry for the Godwin, but Hitler was a great orator. But regardless, I've heard Hitchens try to defend his viewpoint before, and he came across as a very lost and confused man.

I don't see how anything short of Hitchens renouncing his abhorrent views would change my opinion of him. Sure, he may occasionally say black is not white, but then so does just about everyone.

And to watch him in that video above try to shield poor helpless George Bush, the biggest killer of the 21st century, from a few jokes about his IQ is really disgusting. So what if most of the audience isn't smarter than Bush -- it's an observation not worth making unless you are trying to build some sort of defence for the man. And I see he is repeating that lie about Iran wanting to 'wipe Israel off the map'. This man has a pro-war agenda. He fits the neocon bill perfectly-- an ex-lefty who became bitter and angry when middle-age set it.

So what if he makes witty or cutting remarks about religion from time to time? Why should that alone be a reason for atheists to hold him up as one of its representatives?

I mostly agree with you but where I disagree strongly with you is that last bit. We should, his legacy of books and live debates should be enough for atheists to hold him as a worthy representative. You are drastically underestimating Hitchens by the way, it is clear from his many talks that I've seen that he is one of the genuine intellectuals around today (with the exception of his sometimes ill fated ventures into Stephen Hawking territory - but then who really understands that stuff anyway?).

OK-Cancel-Apply · 07-10-2009 10:55AM

@Steve:

Re galloway - check out his 2 hour debate with Hitchens on youtube, it's a must-see. All cards are laid out on the table, and Galloway annihilates him. This is in 2005 I think, only a few weeks after he did the same to the US senate (also on youtube), and they threw the Saddam meeting and the kitchen sink at him.

@Rev:

I understand that completely, but in a world without religion, where being an atheist would go without saying, what good are Hitchens' witticisms? He would be a pretty useless human being, wouldn't he?

philologos · 07-10-2009 12:09PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

@Steve:

Re galloway - check out his 2 hour debate with Hitchens on youtube, it's a must-see. All cards are laid out on the table, and Galloway annihilates him. This is in 2005 I think, only a few weeks after he did the same to the US senate (also on youtube), and they threw the Saddam meeting and the kitchen sink at him.

I've seen the debate, Galloway certainly didn't flatten Hitchens by any means. This was the debate in New York right?

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

@Rev:

I understand that completely, but in a world without religion, where being an atheist would go without saying, what good are Hitchens' witticisms? He would be a pretty useless human being, wouldn't he?

I actually found God is not Great to be a rather entertaining take on the subject, even if I disagree with him entirely (especially when he basically shrugs off the crimes of state atheist regimes, I can't respect that). A bit of humour helps write good books. Hitchens also remains honest in the book, when referring to Catholic sexual abuse scandals, he says amongst secular organisations, and secular groups the rate has been as high if not higher.

I think Bill Maher again although I disagree with him entirely on most issues is set to a certain audience (more to the left than most, and mostly irreligious) and does employ humour.

Sam Vimes · 07-10-2009 01:08PM

Jakkass wrote: »

(especially when he basically shrugs off the crimes of state atheist regimes, I can't respect that)

Oh you mean communist dictatorships? Or shall I bring up every bad thing that was ever done by someone who believed in god and try to suggest that their belief was the sole motivation behind their evil deeds?

darjeeling · 07-10-2009 01:22PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Hitchens also remains honest in the book, when referring to Catholic sexual abuse scandals, he says amongst secular organisations, and secular groups the rate has been as high if not higher.

I've just scanned the relevant sections of his book, and I can't see Hitchens anywhere saying what you think he does.

Chrostopher Hitchens, God is Not Great, page 4 wrote:

I am inflicting all this upon you because I am not one of those whose chance at a wholesome belief was destroyed by child abuse or brutish indoctrination. I know that millions of human beings have had to endure these things and I do not think that religions can or should be absolved from imposing such miseries. (In the very recent past we have seen the Church of Rome befouled by its complicity with the unpardonable sin of child rape [...]) But other nonreligious organisations have committed similar crimes, or even worse ones.

So as you see, Hitchens just says that some non-religious organisations have abused their positions in perpetrating 'child abuse or brutish indoctrination'. He says nothing about how common this has been within any organisation. He also makes no suggestion - unlike your use of 'amongst secular organisations and secular groups' - that it is a widespread feature of secular organisations.

Later in the book, Hitchens comments in a little more detail on the Catholic child sexual abuse scandal. Here he says:

Chrostopher Hitchens, God is Not Great, page 228 wrote:

"Child abuse" is really a silly and pathetic euphemism for what has been going on: we are talking about the systematic rape and torture of children, positively aided and abetted by a hierarchy which knowingly moved the grossest offenders to parishes where they would be safer.

Note that earlier he commented generally on "child abuse", without detailing what he meant by it. Here he is talking specifically of rape and torture, and he makes no reference to secular organisations perpetrating these crimes.

I'm not opening the debate on secular vs. religious abuse here, just pointing out that your comment gives a misleading view of what Hitchens wrote.

.

Valmont · 07-10-2009 03:07PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECI4QK_mXA

hitchens

I will confess to not knowing who Hitchens was until just now but after a summer in the states watching Bill Maher make those terrible jokes over and over again, I'm a fan now.

Valmont · 07-10-2009 03:10PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Well he's certainly an apologist for the Bush administration and the Iraq war.

Saying that George Bush isn't a retard is correct and while I'm no Bush fan, I hate hearing that Michael Moore-type bull****.

Goduznt Xzst · 07-10-2009 03:56PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

I don't get why so many people have so much time for Hitchens. He's a dishonest neo-con twat.

Aside from his personality and his political views what issues do you have with his opinions on Religion?

OK-Cancel-Apply · 07-10-2009 04:44PM

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Aside from his personality and his political views what issues do you have with his opinions on Religion?

I don't have issues with his views on religion. What I'm saying is simple - he's an apologist for the Iraq war, a defender of Bush and a propagator of a lie that is designed to soften the public up for war with Iran, yet so many people have so much time for him and hold him in such high regard simply because he doesn't believe in god and has a witty turn of phrase, or so it seems. Maybe it's just me, but I can't bring myself to be very interested in a man like that. Plenty of other equally gifted authors out there.

Zillah · 07-10-2009 05:02PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

yet so many people have so much time for him and hold him in such high regard simply because he doesn't believe in god and has a witty turn of phrase, or so it seems.

I have interesting priorities as I become older and more jaded.

Richard Dawkins on Real Time with Bill Maher

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