2 Channel Amp and DAC

kao123 · 06-10-2009 10:17PM #1

Hi John and the RS gang, well you caused quite a stir last week with your crazy offers ... and I just had to jump in and get something, can't wait for those BR2's to arrive

And because I bought those I just have to get a new 2 channel amp to go with them, however I am wondering if you can recommend a solution as i am looking into getting a Marantz PM6003 and a CA DacMagic as most of my music is PC based and rather than getting another AV reciver which would allow me to connect the pc via Coax or Optical I want to go down the Analogue with DAC route.

Ideally it should match my SR6003 .... yes yes I like Marantz !

Richersounds.ie: John · 06-10-2009 10:44PM

kao123 wrote: »

Hi John and the RS gang, well you caused quite a stir last week with your crazy offers ... and I just had to jump in and get something, can't wait for those BR2's to arrive
And because I bought those I just have to get a new 2 channel amp to go with them, however I am wondering if you can recommend a solution as i am looking into getting a Marantz PM6003 and a CA DacMagic as most of my music is PC based and rather than getting another AV reciver which would allow me to connect the pc via Coax or Otpical I want to go down the Analogue with DAC route.

Ideally it should match my SR6003 .... yes yes I like Marantz !

PM6003 + Dacmagic - Oh yes Very Nice indeed - would you like me to PM you a Boardies price? BTW there is also the very nice Onkyo A5VL an really well built old fashioned Amp with a built in Dac (yes really!) But I think the Marantz/ CA Combo would beat it in the end..

And on top of that we should support Marantz as they have moved their UK & Ireland HQ to Ireland (next door to Denon) Seriously we should support these guys as they are now employing 20+ people in Ireland and the new crew are giving us great service now in Belfast we phoned them a few days ago asking for a manual on a Denon AVR2310 as the online PDF is not printable and about 20 minutes later a guy from the Marantz / Denon office walks through the door of the shop with a printout AND the manual on disc!! That's service we have never seen from any other manufacturer!

And to cap it all Marantz and Denon in Europe is now run by an Irish woman from Raheny in Dublin!

Anyway enough rambling - keep me posted if we can assist,

ATB,

John Mc

ATB,

John Mc

kao123 · 06-10-2009 11:02PM

Richersounds.ie (John) wrote: »

PM6003 + Dacmagic - Oh yes Very Nice indeed - would you like me to PM you a Boardies price? BTW there is also the very nice Onkyo A5VL an really well built old fashioned Amp with a built in Dac (yes really!) But I think the Marantz/ CA Combo would beat it in the end..

And on top of that we should support Marantz as they have moved their UK & Ireland HQ to Ireland (next door to Denon) Seriously we should support these guys as they are now employing 20+ people in Ireland and the new crew are giving us great service now in Belfast we phoned them a few days ago asking for a manual on a Denon AVR2310 as the online PDF is not printable and about 20 minutes later a guy from the Marantz / Denon office walks through the door of the shop with a printout AND the manual on disc!! That's service we have never seen from any other manufacturer!

And to cap it all Marantz and Denon in Europe is now run by an Irish woman from Raheny in Dublin!

Anyway enough rambling - keep me posted if we can assist,

ATB,

John Mc

ATB,

John Mc

No Problems with me supporting Marantz, my last 3 amps have all been Marantz and my dad still has his from the late seventies (the sound from it cannot be beaten IMO) anyhooo if you could PM me a price that'd be great.....

Cheers

kao123 · 07-10-2009 12:35PM

I had a look online at the Onkyo, seems to get mixed reviews but looks nice all the same, but i think I'll have to go for the Marantz and the DAC, one question though do you know if it is worth upgrading the power supply for the DAC, there is a bit of talk on the web about noticeable differences when swapping them out for a Russ Andrews or a Maplins one?
(even though RS are the distributor for them here and you might not be allowed to say so

)

Thanks

aldente · 08-10-2009 01:37AM

Richersounds.ie (John) wrote: »

PM6003 + Dacmagic - Oh yes Very Nice indeed - would you like me to PM you a Boardies price? BTW there is also the very nice Onkyo A5VL an really well built old fashioned Amp with a built in Dac (yes really!) But I think the Marantz/ CA Combo would beat it in the end..

And on top of that we should support Marantz as they have moved their UK & Ireland HQ to Ireland (next door to Denon) Seriously we should support these guys as they are now employing 20+ people in Ireland and the new crew are giving us great service now in Belfast we phoned them a few days ago asking for a manual on a Denon AVR2310 as the online PDF is not printable and about 20 minutes later a guy from the Marantz / Denon office walks through the door of the shop with a printout AND the manual on disc!! That's service we have never seen from any other manufacturer!

And to cap it all Marantz and Denon in Europe is now run by an Irish woman from Raheny in Dublin!

Anyway enough rambling - keep me posted if we can assist,

ATB,

John Mc

ATB,

John Mc

Hi kao123,
Wow, it sounds just like what I was mulling over unconsciously! CA DacMagic, is there another competing model worth checking?

I love music, and still like playing CDs as well as digitised collection in iTunes. CDs bring the pleasure of looking at record sleeves (i.e. "artwork" in terms of the digital music world!) which is in me equivalent to looking at pictures in art galleries. Thank you for mentioning the combination.

Hi John Mc,
Would you PM me a Boardies price PM6003+DacMagic?? BTW, it's a nice story to hear there's a down-to-earth salesman like that!

kao123 · 08-10-2009 07:49AM

aldente wrote: »

Hi kao123,
Wow, it sounds just like what I was mulling over unconsciously! CA DacMagic, is there another competing model worth checking?

I love music, and still like playing CDs as well as digitised collection in iTunes. CDs bring the pleasure of looking at record sleeves (i.e. "artwork" in terms of the digital music world!) which is in me equivalent to looking at pictures in art galleries. Thank you for mentioning the combination.

Hi John Mc,
Would you PM me a Boardies price PM6003+DacMagic?? BTW, it's a nice story to hear there's a down-to-earth salesman like that!

Hi Aldente nice to know there's other people out there looking into the same type of setups as me, with the DAC setup i want to have the best sound i can from my pc to an analogue amp.
There are lots of various standalone DAC's out there but the DacMagic is in the affordable bracket (for me anyway) but in direct competion with it is the Beresford TC-7520 which is roughly the same price as the DacMagic (slightly cheaper) .
There are many debates about which is better but there doesn't seem to be any conclusive results, but I like the look of the CA over the Beresford myself.

still waiting for the PM though

kao123 · 09-10-2009 11:14AM

Don't forget me ....... :rolleyes:

kao123 · 12-10-2009 08:47AM

Sneaky bump .......

Richersounds.ie: John · 12-10-2009 09:03AM

kao123 wrote: »

I had a look online at the Onkyo, seems to get mixed reviews but looks nice all the same, but i think I'll have to go for the Marantz and the DAC, one question though do you know if it is worth upgrading the power supply for the DAC, there is a bit of talk on the web about noticeable differences when swapping them out for a Russ Andrews or a Maplins one?
(even though RS are the distributor for them here and you might not be allowed to say so )

Thanks

Kao,

No problem talking about the Dacmagic even though it's one of our baby products - your timing is opportune as Cambridge have just released an upgraded PSU for the Dacmagic and they are actually recalling the old ones (if you bought one we will be in touch with you later on in the week!)

I have not tried a Dacmagic with the revised PSU personally - will be interesting to hear if it makes any difference!

Thanks again and keep me posted,

ATB,

John Mc

kao123 · 12-10-2009 09:31AM

Thanks for the reply John, if you could pm me a price on the PM6003 and the DacMagic that'd be great

thanks in advance

Richersounds.ie: John · 12-10-2009 09:33AM

aldente wrote: »

Hi kao123,
Wow, it sounds just like what I was mulling over unconsciously! CA DacMagic, is there another competing model worth checking?

I love music, and still like playing CDs as well as digitised collection in iTunes. CDs bring the pleasure of looking at record sleeves (i.e. "artwork" in terms of the digital music world!) which is in me equivalent to looking at pictures in art galleries. Thank you for mentioning the combination.

Hi John Mc,
Would you PM me a Boardies price PM6003+DacMagic?? BTW, it's a nice story to hear there's a down-to-earth salesman like that!

Sorry Guys!

Marantz PM6003 + Cambridge Audio Dacmagic - I can do these at £499.95 for the two!

Apologies again for the delay!

Keep me posted,

ATB,

John Mc & Crew

aldente · 12-10-2009 08:52PM

Hi John Mc,

Thank you for the offer. I've just sent email to place my order for the two.

aldente

kao123 · 22-10-2009 07:45AM

Once again I have to say thanks to John at RicherSounds, I didn't go with the PM6003 amp (yet) but I did go ahead and order myself the Cambridge Audio DacMagic, and I have to say it makes a huge difference to my 2 channel stereo listening expierence.
After reading up on it online and reading through the various debates on it versus other DAC's I can now see / hear what all the fuss is about.
I should have bought one ages ago.

My 2 channel setup is almost complete now

So thanks John for putting up with my harassing phone calls and to Kenny who got it shipped to me in jig time.

aldente · 29-10-2009 11:49PM

Hi kao123,

How do you find your DacMagic now?? Is it a significant improvement? (I do hope so since I am also getting it soon :pac:) Regarding the discussion of its PSU issue, how is the revised PSU you have? (I assume you got the revised one)

aldente

kao123 · 30-10-2009 12:55AM

aldente wrote: »

Hi kao123,

How do you find your DacMagic now?? Is it a significant improvement? (I do hope so since I am also getting it soon :pac:) Regarding the discussion of its PSU issue, how is the revised PSU you have? (I assume you got the revised one)

aldente

Hi aldente,
I have to say the DacMagic really has changed the sound of music from my PC tp my amp, for me and my setup it was pretty much an instantly noticeable difference.
I am currently trying to decide which I prefer the USB connection or the Optical as the optical on my pc can output at the higher frequency but I really do think that is up to the ears !
I can't really make a call on the PSU as I have nothing to compare it to but yes I do have the revised one.

Now all I need is an analogue amp to really test it, I am using an STR-DA1200Es and it can use 2 channel stereo effect or Analogue but I'd like to hear it on an anaolgue amp as well....now if only there was an ex-demo PM6003 in silver for sale somewhere ......... :P

Kao123

aldente · 23-01-2010 06:14PM

I have not spent so much time comparing music with or without Dac Magic yet, but I was able to hear the difference quite instantly!

Listening to some jazz vocals, it adds lustre to the sound and the voice tails off with something like a sound space, but not an echo. The string of the bass is also more audible with it. Without Dac Magic, the same tune sounds blander, if not flatter.

So I am happy with the purchase of Dac Magic. Thank you, kao123 and John from RicherSounds.

aldente

Pacifico · 23-01-2010 06:22PM

Does it (The DAC) really make that much of a difference? Even if your current amp has optical in?

PS are they available in silver? :P

aldente · 23-01-2010 08:18PM

My comparison was made between these set-ups:

A: AppleTV --(Optical)--> Analogue Amplifier
B: AppleTV --(Optical)--> Dac Magic --(RCA)--> Analogue Amplifier

With set-up A, the sound had a drier taste, whilst the sound came out with lustre, a wider and clearer range to my ear with set-up B.

This is quite a subjective matter and really up to your musical and audio orientation. You may or may not find an added value in it.

aldente

kao123 · 24-01-2010 02:15AM

My comparisons were :
PC - Optical - Amp (Sony STR DA1200ES)
PC 3.5mm Headphone - RCA Analogue Amp
PC - Optical - DacMagic - Amp
PC - USB - DacMagic - Amp

All the music I played were loseless wav files and I settled on the the last setup, for me personally the music sounded fuller and deeper all round.
I also have a lot of m3p's ranging from very low quality 96kbps up to 320kbps and even these sound much more detailed using the DAC.

Another thing to note is that the DAC has also transformed an old dvd player (Sony DVP-NS355) into a perfectly acceptable cd player.

I have to agree with aldente that it is like all things related to HiFi in that it can be subjective and down to personal taste, but for me it's a great addition.

And yes they do come in silver, just like mine:)

vinniemac · 24-01-2010 01:28PM

Just wondering if an external DAC would offer much improvement over those in an AV receiver (Denon 1910 in my case)? Would mostly be used for playing iTunes music (compressed) over optical out from my pc

aldente · 24-01-2010 02:27PM

My comparison was made between these set-ups (Set-up C added):

A: AppleTV --(Optical)--> Analogue Amplifier
B: AppleTV --(Optical)--> Dac Magic --(RCA)--> Analogue Amplifier
C: AppleTV --(RCA)--> Analogue Amplifier

With set-up C, the sound was not so crisp, the treble lacked a stretch. As you can imagine, this is the least desirable option.

aldente

aldente · 25-01-2010 01:20AM

vinniemac wrote: »

Just wondering if an external DAC would offer much improvement over those in an AV receiver (Denon 1910 in my case)? Would mostly be used for playing iTunes music (compressed) over optical out from my pc

The difference between my Set-up A and Set-up B was narrow compared to that between optical only and RCA only in my set-up.

In my opinion, if you are ready to explore the sound details, you may find the effect of the DAC satisfactory. If not, I am certain that it would turn out to be just a waste of money.

aldente

Richersounds.ie: John · 25-01-2010 02:03PM

Pacifico wrote: »

PS are they available in silver? :P

Yep - available in Silver and in stock,

Keep me posted,

ATB,

John Mc

Richersounds.ie: John · 25-01-2010 02:16PM

vinniemac wrote: »

Just wondering if an external DAC would offer much improvement over those in an AV receiver (Denon 1910 in my case)? Would mostly be used for playing iTunes music (compressed) over optical out from my pc

Vinnie,

thanks for the post - to be honest we have never sold a DACMAGIC to a Customer who was not delighted with it! (even though we had to do a product recall and change all the power supplies on the early ones

) However the Denon AVR1910 has an excellent Compressed audio restorer function built in which makes a decent stab of even getting MP3 & Itunes files to sound better - however I'm happy to do a 14 day money back offer on the DACMAGIC if anyone wants to try one out!

Keep me posted and again apologies for the delay in gettting back to you.

ATB,

John Mc & Crew

aldente · 21-02-2010 11:36PM

Hi John from RS,

Experimenting my Marantz 6004 and DAC Magic, I have noticed that the sound the AVR gets from the DAC is too strong. The connection here is as follows:

iTunes --(Ethernet)-->AirPortExp--(Optical)-->DAC--(RCA)-->AVR

I understand that DAC Magic is an upsampling device.

The AVR indicates "PEAK" which means the analogue signal has exceeded the top level - in other words, the scale arm has hit the rightmost. The AVR user guide tells you to turn on ATT (attenuator) if the PEAK indicator is lit.

Now I am pondering. Does this mean that the benefit of having DAC Magic would be offset?

Do you have any comment or suggestion?

The Ritz · 22-02-2010 01:29AM

Mod Comment

aldente,

If you are posting a query for Richersounds I'm happy to leave your most recent post here, but if you are raising the topic for discussion or are looking for general opinions I'll move your query to a new thread on the Home Entertainmnt forums as per usual practice here.

Ritz.

Noted your post has been edited to clarify.

Richersounds.ie: John · 22-02-2010 06:20PM

aldente wrote: »

Hi John from RS,

Experimenting my Marantz 6004 and DAC Magic, I have noticed that the sound the AVR gets from the DAC is too strong. The connection here is as follows:

iTunes --(Ethernet)-->AirPortExp--(Optical)-->DAC--(RCA)-->AVR

I understand that DAC Magic is an upsampling device.

The AVR indicates "PEAK" which means the analogue signal has exceeded the top level - in other words, the scale arm has hit the rightmost. The AVR user guide tells you to turn on ATT (attenuator) if the PEAK indicator is lit.

Now I am pondering. Does this mean that the benefit of having DAC Magic would be offset?

Do you have any comment or suggestion?

Ald,

(Thanks Ritz) Thanks for the reply - no the output from the Dacmagic should be below 2mv (EDIT just checked it's 2.1Mv)and should not be a variable output (in my opinion - TBH I have not had one home yet to play with) But I have passed your enquiry onto the technical boffins at Cambridge and I'll pass on the reply as soon as it arrives!

(EDIT : BTW home come you are not using the optical / coax out if its into a marantz 6004?)
Keep you posted,

ATB,

John Mc & Crew

aldente · 23-02-2010 12:37AM

Richersounds.ie (John) wrote: »

(EDIT : BTW home come you are not using the optical / coax out if its into a marantz 6004?)

John Mc, thank you for your reply. Yes, as mentioned above, this is RCA analogue from DAC Magic into the AVR. I'm looking forward to the reply from Cambridge Audio.

aldente

Richersounds.ie: John · 23-02-2010 02:53PM

aldente wrote: »

John Mc, thank you for your reply. Yes, as mentioned above, this is RCA analogue from DAC Magic into the AVR. I'm looking forward to the reply from Cambridge Audio.

aldente

Aldente,

many thanks again for the query - Cambridge Audio have given me the following response:

This is normal for an AVR. When a user plugs in any audio source using an analogue input into an AVR and does not set as DIRECT, this signal will go through AVRs ADC (Analogue to Digital Converter) to be digitally processed. As per any ADC design, an ADC IC will have a supply of 5V, and the maximum input signal into the ADC will be about 2Vrms. Modern ADCs have a peak detector which informs the host if this 2Vrms has been exceeded as signal clipping has occurred. Then host will inform user to reduce (attenuate) the input signal to prevent any loss in signal. This action does not in any way deteriorate the incoming signal as attenuating the input by say -3dB, will also attenuate the noise floor by -3dB - hence no performance loss.

Now, 2V input is not a standard as such but is used as a reference point for Dolby/DTS measurements. 2Vrms is 0dBFS in digital (digital Full scale). Hence most DVD players will have an analogue out of about 2Vrms. CD players are not tied to Dolby/DTS regulation so their 0dBFS is not forced to be 2Vrms. Ours are 2.2Vrms. Many other competitors CD players will have output up to 2.5Vrms (this is a little trick that some manufacturers play because in quick A-B listening tests a higher output CD player will sound more ‘detailed’ as the user can hear more, but in actual fact it is just slightly louder).

Most music does not peak at 0dBFS (2.2Vrms) anyway unless it’s a badly recorded CD (pop music). That is why orchestra music will sound quieter – because is its recorded in such a way that no signal peak will be loss (clipped) during recording.

Anyway, most integrated (hi-fi) amplifiers will be happy to accept an input of up to 4-8Vrms. As such, if the user sets their AVR to bypass/DIRECT mode on that input, it should be ok.

So, to summarise - no performance loss by pressing attenuation on the AVR, but we would recommend bypass/DIRECT mode on that input to avoid another loss in audio quality by going into digital domain again. The sound quality user will hear by going into the digital domain of the AVR will be mostly of the AVR’s DAC and not much of the DacMagic/CD player. (i.e. bottle-neck).

If you can imagine, music is recorded in analogue (mic - mic amp - premap) then is converted to digital (ADC 44.1/16bit) --> CD disk --> DacMagic (44.1/16bit up-sampled to 192/24bit) and is then only converted to analogue again at the final stage - (Wolfson DAC/filter etc) -->preamp-->amp-->speaker.

However, if the user goes through AVR without pressing SOURCE DIRECT/Bypass/etc, after the DacMagic (Wolfson DAC/filter) digital to analogue stage -->AVR [ADC again --> digital post processing--> DAC/filter] --> preamp-->amp --> speaker. This results in the bottleneck previously discussed, and a degradation in sound quality.

Thanks,
Ben

Hope this is of some use to you - any further queries please drop me a line and we will do our best to get further info for you..

ATB,

John Mc & Crew

aldente · 21-03-2010 08:22PM

Hi John,

Thank you very much for the very proactively detailed response from Cambridge Audio. I'm sorry for not being able to check this thread, but I've had a problem browsing websites recently. The solution is really reasonable. I'll have a go anyway.

aldente

2 Channel Amp and DAC

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