Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

defence forces wrote: »

YES!!! Eire go backwards indeed I believe the figures I have to go on is reality such as rising food prices worldwide, rising populations.
I have a degree in environmental science (I could only presume under your sort of logic that would make me a hippy!) my thoughts are about sustainable development. Now I could be wrong on this but I had heard something about oil running out and that even nuclear power is a finite resource. so when the oil runs out and we convert large tracts of land for bio fuel. How do you sir, assume we can grow food?
I have worked on farms I worked in the shipping industry and unfortunetely I can't work on fishing boats as there is no work. This treaty is about laying down framework for the next 50 years of the European Union. When the oil runs out and silicone is no longer available for your microchips! what do you intend eat?.
500-600 Ireland was covered not extensively but in a large part by woodland, a lot of which the british cut down, that is a fact. that is why we are seeing mud scales, however this was due to recent deforestation.

I can't stand those daft back of the pub arguements i'm right you know it, we eat microchips and pave everything concrete and give people jobs doing it. I've already voted NO with a postal ballot there is no way to change it. But I can voice opinion and conjecture! I do know I am right that it is unsustainable development if you can't see that may god help. I'm not going to make you vote yes. but at least come up with something that makes sense and clarifies why one should vote yes. otherwise keep your nit picking to yourself mate.

Might I ask what sort of degree you have? is it in eating microchips? yessss nooooo......

running out of silicon?
right i hope you never take a stroll on a beach


eating silicon?
what sort of an argument is that?



I have a b.sc in computer science and an m.eng degree
despite the recession im doing quite well thank you

And i have no intention of farming or fishing or for that matter working on a production line, thanks to education im able to have a nice living and enjoyable job learning something new every single day and not getting bored by a repetitive non challenging job


For someone with a degree you certainly have a hard time backing up your thesis with references and figures

If you think the whole country would willingly revert to an agrarian society you must be high on something, the existing farming and fishing population can quite comfortably provide alot of food, if anything the EU is paying these people not to grow things in order not to collapse the markets under food mountains


BTW you would be shocked to find out that:

* Lisbon provides us with a common energy policy to deal with energy security

* Lisbon makes it easier for a state to leave EU by outlining how


If you are worried about oil running out or you want Ireland to leave the EU then its in your interest to vote YES


Cheerio and when you step foot on that plane that will fly you to New Zealand remember that its aluminium, microchips and software/hardware from scientists/engineers like me thats keeping you safe while you fly to the opposite side of this planet from Ireland

!

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Your the one making claims

The onus of proof is on you mister

I wonder how you manage to graduate without knowing that?

btw that matter what is the impact of you flying to the opposite point on this planet?

I knew it, eating microchips! frankly I would find that a very boring and repetitive job. anyway here goes:

Yes I am aware that I am being hypocritical in flying on planes and using laptops given a choice I wouldn't and I am very sincere in that, I really regret doing it, I actually had considered cycling and taking a train it only takes three months, and if I had a job here I would not travel.

By the way silcon/silcone is considered a polymer and contains amongst other things coal and oil. Again finite resourses. most of the arguements you are making are conjecture and are not dealing with the main issues of put it simply the loss of Irish identity. futhermore the idea of a common energy policy is to my mind quite worrying and unsettling. frankly I do not believe that it will make it easier for us to leave that is within itself a bareface lie. we are in essence annexing our control of justice and security which will cease to apply to us but to Europe. you want to work as a microchip engineer thats good for you, however are you being dare I say it turning your nose at production line line jobs and farming and fishing sounds a bit over the top to me and you keep saying that I want to implicate an agarian eutopia (whatever that is?).
seeing as you like point form:
I) I stated that we are entering an unsustainable future
II) Market forces and butter mountains (what?) we have essentially destablised the small farmer and fisherman
III) when silicon/silcone can no longer be made what exactly do you intend to do for work?
IV) do you really think that it is sustainable to transport granite from china for the streets of dublin, as it is cheaper than getting it from the wicklow mountains? or indeed transporting grain from the Ukraine. I don't want to live in that world, if you do that is your choice and good for you.
V)you are only voting yes because you have a job a lot of others have seen the reality of Europe. Maybe join the bread line.

You are clearly mad, and high on something yourself. Look around you, massive land fills full of old microchips and cars melting icecaps huge fluctuations in weather patterns incresing populations that will be harder to feed, rising sea levels. maybe you should do some other sort of science eh?

Anyway it's a nice day and I wish to go for a cycle be a shame to waste it, trust me I will however be back later to debase your pointless arrogant arguements that for all the world come across as lies. Did he say it I think he did.

Tarobot wrote: »

What are you on about? I am an environmental scientist and I don't know what you're trying to say.

im truly baffled by his ramblings myself

ive seen my fair share of rants here on boards from people blaming the EU for everything and anything that doesnt align with their world belief system

but sometimes we get a golden nugget like this guy rambling about issues such as energy

which Lisbon addresses if people vote YES

or farming and fishing which are greatly helped and subsidized by EU


unlike farmers my business doesn't get paid by EU not to do things

defence forces wrote: »

Ahem er yeah erm silcon or as I put it (silicon/silcone) is a POLYMER I am afraid you never this addressed issue, what sort of environmental scientist are you? indeed to the point sir? what sort of scientist are you? "I love the EU may it allways suck my right one" (do it in a Bruno voice it sounds better) yeah lets all live in sand covered in oil!!!!. In all fairness it comes across to me a bit like that sorry 'mate'. Anyway I have a postal ballot and I already voted NO, as stated before I have no interest in convincing you only that I wish to prove you wrong. As is life it being short I need to go and enjoy it. goodbye POLYMER man. enjoy your microchips and breast implants... I like natural.

Seriously what are you smoking??

lol its the best explanation yet for the stoner ramblings. lol eating mycrochips etc.................Im sure he has the munchies by now. At least we got to the bottom of it in the end:D

In terms of reasons for voting no I see many, reasons for voting yes i see few.

My reasons:

1. Anti democratic
- Any organization that despises its members so much that they feel they can ignore the popular vote and ask citizens to re-vote on the exact same treaty is not to be trusted.
- Nothing has changed in this treaty, we are asked to vote on the exact same thing, more or less the same document that was shot down by France and Holland.
- The arrogance of the European elite and the pandering of the Irish government in the days that followed was shameful - "don't
worry lads we'll fix this" as opposed to "our citizens have spoken, please respect our vote"
- I've heard all the arguments that our small nation is holding back the rest of Europe (see above for French & Dutch) and that we
should be allowed time to 'reflect' and 'reconsider' as people can change their mind right? If that logic holds lets make it best of 3, something tells me if we vote yes we'll never have another chance to reconsider a no.

2. Spin
- The sheer amount of spin by the Irish media is unbelievable, with the Irish times forcing the agenda daily with their opinion pieces and skewed polls with leading questions.
- We then had 'celebrities' endorsing the treaty until this backfired when they get asked heavyweight questions on it.
- If I hear the phrase 'heart of europe' again I'm going to kill someone. What exactly does this mean??
- This has now extended to spin on the economy (see below)

3. Economy
- Again we're constantly told that lisbon will be great for our economy. Tell this to the spanish who have seen their unemployment figures double in almost a year since ratifying lisbon.
- The refute is that of course this happened because Lisbon hasn't been passed yet. What specifically will Lisbon do to help the Irish and Spanish economy (I am aware of the ECB bailout and special treatment of the Irish in recent months)

4. 'Legal' Guarantees
You could see this one a mile away. I predicted but didn't verbalise it at the time that the guarantees would not turn out to be actual protocols but 'solemn declarations' which is basically a way of saying 'we promise' but with the fingers crossed behind the back.

What is with the spin from the media about 'cast iron' 'legal' guarantees?

Declarations are dubious at best and outright misleading at worst. Once ratified the treaty is what will be referred to and not the declarations in the ECJ. I am aware that the plan is to add them as protocols in the next accession treaty whenever that occurs, in the mean time what shade of grey area are we in? Moreover if the accession treaty is not passed how long do we remain in legal limbo land?

If they were genuine about it why not attach a protocol to the existing treaty? Obviously this will not be done as each country would need to re-ratify the new text. It may delay the time line a little but it would turn a lot of voters - whats the rush?

5. Lack of trust
I am having difficulty placing my trust in an organisation that appears to strive for fairness and equality across the eurozone but on closer investigation we find that the organisation has been cooking the books for at least 13 years last time i checked

6. Government endorsement
First they endorsed it when they hadn't read the thing now they're fully behind it. Why would you trust any government that recommends policy without even reading policy documents. Is the EU working for the people are are the governments just securing their 'retirement' on the political gravy train?

7. EU President
I'm hearing that Tony Blair may be put forward for EU President. I have a bitter taste in my mouth on this one. The same guy who supported the invasion of Iraq with Bush and co, allowed falsified 'evidence' as a justification to invade and is being pursued as a war criminal in the Hague could be made president and be given a voice to speak for all of Europe. How can I vote this guy out? Is it even possible?

8. Status Quo
I am pro european (shock). I would consider myself more Berlin than Boston BUT I am also quite happy with the status quo - a United Europe centered around economic policy and free trade. The political posturing that now seems to be occurring is something we really don't need. I am quite happy with our own constitution and I don't need a new charter of fundamental rights.

9. Referendum on the current government
Although this isn't my reason I can see many Irish using Lisbon II to give the current government another kicking. Now logic dictates that you should separate out anger for the government with any reactionary vote, especially one as important as Lisbon however I'm happy to let the irish public exercise their anger in the form of a No vote especially since we won't get another chance.

I'm sure there's lots of other reasons I can't think of but the above sums up my position on Lisbon. In contrast the reasons for voting Yes appear to be

a. If we vote no we'll no longer be at the 'heart of europe' which may lead to US MNCs pulling out.
b. If we vote no the EU wont be our 'friends' and we'll get less financial support
c. If we vote yes the EU will be more efficient

Refutes
a. One of the main reasons US MNCs are here is - our corp tax rate. We lose the ability to control this or become uncompetitive we lose the MNC
b. The ECB are supplementing us at present. If we vote yes how long with this continue for? Months? Years? This is not an incentive to vote yes. We need to resolve our own problems here.
c. Simply put, I don't care, given all the negatives above.

I have been a member here for some time and I expect this thread not to be locked (as some other posters have suggested is occurring here).

Lets have some real debate and use this thread for people to post their reasons for voting yes or no!