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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

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Comments

  • #2492
    Toiletroll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭Toiletroll


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    I know what you mean, but there's more militarism besides in the constitution. And if it's in the constitution it's very hard to argue against. And we still don't need it, and I reckon it offers more harm than good.


    Where does that say that they don't have to make concessions to private interests to allow competition? All that means is that they can't stop the state from providing public services, it doesn't say they don't have to allow entry to the private sector in any way shape or form.


    I can see why it's hard for you to understand; you don't know what you're talking about.

    In the EU, farmers are in the unique position of not being allowed set the price for their own produce. Only dairies, granaries, meat factories, etc are in a position to name the price, and as it's only the buyer naming that price, it's a bad price for the farmers. In theory, you can take your business elsewhere, but each other dairy will make an excuse for milk. The dairies are effectively a cartel.

    The supermarkets certainly haven't helped but the fact is, when we originally joined the EU, prices went way up, and have gone steadily down ever since. They set the prices consumers pay, not the prices farmers get paid. With milk, for example, it's the dairies. A supermarket does make 40c profit on a litre of milk that a farmer gets paid 20c total for, that's true. But if they started paying 20c/l more to the dairies, do you think the farmers would get any of it?

    Prices for Irish farmers were bad long before Tesco, Aldi and Lidl came here. That's a fact.

    The subsidies are bull****, farmers don't want a handout, they just want to get the value of their labour for what they produce without having to go begging to anyone.

    So why don't they all get together and hold out for more money from the dairies? They can't, that's illegal.


    Well was the boards.ie poll not the most accurate last time?

    I will be voting NO.


  • #2493
    Hydrosylator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Hydrosylator


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    You couldn't be farther from the truth.

    The EU, with the CAP reforms and more recently decoupling through single farm payments subject to cross-compliance have allowed Ireland be a real player in world export markets in beef, dairy and pork products. The introduction of the CAP reform made Ireland the force it is today, before the 1980s all farm were small, family run enterprises with very small profit margins and extremely inefficient. With the EU, the agricultural enterprise exploded, making it into what it is today. EU policies and grants have allowed us to compete with the best genetics, feeding regimes, farm practices etc. worldwide.
    Oh yeah fantastic! Larger farms clearly indicate the agriculture is getting better! Surely the land used to make these big farms was previously used for croquet tournaments, kite-flying and picnics.

    No wait, the land was previously part of farms which collapsed, after, not before, the policies you speak of were introduced. As for the very small profits in the 80's you mention, Irish farms are now operating at a loss. That's big and small farms alike. Tell me what's better, profit or loss?

    Beef and milk are now at prices lower than they were before we joined what is now the EU. That's a fact. Ask any farmer. And that isn't adjusted for inflation either. If you adjust for inflation it's several times worse.
    WeeBushy wrote: »
    Agriculture has been hit very hard lately, as have all industries in Ireland by the way, but without the EU it would have collapsed altogether. Rightly or wrongly EU policies have protected us from cheap imported meat from the likes of Brazil which is a very real threat to our beef industry, without the EU's protection we simply would not be able to compete.
    That's almost retarded. Read this, from here
    In agriculture the EU is committed to an agreement that reforms farm subsidy programs throughout the rich world in line with the EU's wide-ranging 2003 reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. As part of the Doha Round, the EU has offered to cut farm tariffs by 60%, reduce trade distorting farm subsidies by 80% and eliminate farm export subsidies altogether. The EU also wants to see new market access opportunities for its own processed agricultural exports.

    To summarise, the EU is bending over backwards to bring it's agriculture in line with WTO global free market policies, this only means bad things for European farmers.


  • #2494
    Hydrosylator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Hydrosylator


    K-9 wrote: »
    Governments change and swings between left and right wing parties happen.
    True, but I'm not going to vote based on my hope that the next swing goes to the left or even the centre. Will the next swing of national governments be to the right? If it echoes the recent European elections it will.
    K-9 wrote: »
    I see your point as similar to the big countries out voting us point. Can you point out when these 64% of votes agreed on something, or forced us to to do anything?
    Well, there's the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, that's one thing that springs to mind. Of course, everyone except us did that, not just the right wing governments. The fact is there hasn't been an opportunity for it to work in that way yet, not that we'd notice. Today the only thing under QMV is the European Economic and Social Committee. I don't know about you, but I had to go and look up what they do.

    So before now, it's been irrelevant what 64% of the European Council thinks, because it's been 100% or nothing on everything except a think-tank until now.

    With Lisbon ratified, would they always vote the same way? I don't want to find out.
    K-9 wrote: »
    On the defence point, if you believe that, I don't think anybody can sway you on it.
    It's not that I believe that it would happen, it's that it could happen. Look at the number of EU countries who signed up to the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq. That's military collaboration for money right there. Money meaning nice deals with the US, for the most part.

    Could it happen on an EU only basis? Who knows. It could happen in 5 years, 50 years or never. Would it be in the interest of the human race to do what we can from making it a possibility? I think so. I don't want Europe acting like the USA or China.
    K-9 wrote: »
    We have guarantees on Family law and education.
    I don't have faith in the guarantees for two reasons. They're not part of the Treaty, and the Treaty is self-amending. That said, the guarantees haven't addressed my (and a lot of other people's) main concerns about Lisbon anyway.
    K-9 wrote: »
    Agriculture would probably be more fecked without the EU. We'd probably have to follow New Zealands example which would mean the end of small farms.
    That's debatable and of course, impossible to prove one way or another.
    Prices for beef and dairy have gone steadily downwards since we joined the EEC, before you even take inflation into account.

    Another fact is that the EU went to the Doha Rounds of the WTO with this promise:
    In agriculture the EU is committed to an agreement that reforms farm subsidy programs throughout the rich world in line with the EU's wide-ranging 2003 reform of the Common Agricultural Policy. As part of the Doha Round, the EU has offered to cut farm tariffs by 60%, reduce trade distorting farm subsidies by 80% and eliminate farm export subsidies altogether. The EU also wants to see new market access opportunities for its own processed agricultural exports.
    Link

    Fortunately for EU farmers, the talks collapsed for other reasons. We might not be as lucky next time.


  • #2495
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    True, but I'm not going to vote based on my hope that the next swing goes to the left or even the centre. Will the next swing of national governments be to the right? If it echoes the recent European elections it will.


    Well, there's the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, that's one thing that springs to mind. Of course, everyone except us did that, not just the right wing governments. The fact is there hasn't been an opportunity for it to work in that way yet, not that we'd notice. Today the only thing under QMV is the European Economic and Social Committee. I don't know about you, but I had to go and look up what they do.

    So before now, it's been irrelevant what 64% of the European Council thinks, because it's been 100% or nothing on everything except a think-tank until now.

    With Lisbon ratified, would they always vote the same way? I don't want to find out.

    .


    With the exception of the security and defence. The QMV is already the norm across most areas of decision making in the Council. You are confusing that with the fact that a formal vote rarely needing to be taken.

    It's not that I believe that it would happen, it's that it could happen. Look at the number of EU countries who signed up to the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq. That's military collaboration for money right there. Money meaning nice deals with the US, for the most part.

    Could it happen on an EU only basis? Who knows. It could happen in 5 years, 50 years or never. Would it be in the interest of the human race to do what we can from making it a possibility? I think so. I don't want Europe acting like the USA or China.
    .

    Nothing in Lisbon either make that more or less likely in the future, the only armies in the EU are those of the member states.
    I don't have faith in the guarantees for two reasons. They're not part of the Treaty, and the Treaty is self-amending. That said, the guarantees haven't addressed my (and a lot of other people's) main concerns about Lisbon anyway.

    The guarantees are legally binding and the treaty is not self ammending. One of your main corcern seems to be the Governments of 64% of the other member states so not sure what could be done for you there.
    That's debatable and of course, impossible to prove one way or another.
    Prices for beef and dairy have gone steadily downwards since we joined the EEC, before you even take inflation into account.

    Another fact is that the EU went to the Doha Rounds of the WTO with this promise:

    Link

    Fortunately for EU farmers, the talks collapsed for other reasons. We might not be as lucky next time.

    The the next round of WTO talks will happen with or without Lisbon.


  • #2496
    Kev_ps3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Im voting No because im anti-EU. Prob the best reason the vote No imo!


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  • #2497
    Hydrosylator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Hydrosylator


    marco_polo wrote: »
    With the exception of the security and defence. The QMV is already the norm across most areas of decision making in the Council. You are confusing that with the fact that a formal vote rarely needing to be taken.
    If not confusing anything, the votes are there for when disagreements arise. With QMV one country isn't enough to stop something going through. Or am I confusing that?
    marco_polo wrote: »
    Nothing in Lisbon either make that more or less likely in the future, the only armies in the EU are those of the member states.
    Not true. What does military soldarity mean to you?
    What about the European Council telling states how much to spend on defense?
    marco_polo wrote: »
    The guarantees are legally binding and the treaty is not self amending. One of your main concern seems to be the Governments of 64% of the other member states so not sure what could be done for you there.
    Article 48
    Yes one of my main concerns is who will be in charge. Am I mental or wha?
    Under QMV they will be more in charge than before. That's a fact.
    marco_polo wrote: »
    The the next round of WTO talks will happen with or without Lisbon.
    I know. I was rebutting K-9's point that agriculture would be more fecked without the EU. Where was the ambiguity suggesting otherwise?


  • #2498
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    Article 48
    Yes, Article 48 indicates that the Treaty is not self-amending. What do you believe self-amending means? Because if it's one of your main reasons for voting No, then I don't think you understand Article 48.


  • #2499
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    If not confusing anything, the votes are there for when disagreements arise. With QMV one country isn't enough to stop something going through. Or am I confusing that?

    My point was that it is the most common voting proceedure in the European Council and the council of ministers by far, outside of very specific sensitive areas. You appeared to be claiming that unaminity is currently required in all areas and that QMW was an brand new concept to the Council.

    Not true. What does military soldarity mean to you?
    What about the European Council telling states how much to spend on defense?

    The Council has no authority to mandate the scale of military spending of any member state. Military solidatiry means that some member states can aid another in the event that one of them is attacked. Neutral states in the Union are free so stand idely by. We are only obliged to particiipate in aspects of the solidarity clause related to natural ddisasters where no Military involvenment is mandated.
    Article 48
    Yes one of my main concerns is who will be in charge. Am I mental or wha?
    Under QMV they will be more in charge than before. That's a fact.

    Amendmends to the treaties are not decided, and never will be decided by QMV. They are agreed on unamiously by all member states and must be ratified in line with their constitutional requirements. This is what is happening at the moment by the way.
    I know. I was rebutting K-9's point that agriculture would be more fecked without the EU. Where was the ambiguity suggesting otherwise?

    Not sure that all or even most farmers would agree with you.


  • #2500
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    Im voting No because im anti-EU. Prob the best reason the vote No imo!

    You know thats a valid reason (along with nationalism) and fair play to you for being straight up about it, compared to other posters we get here

    tho hopefully more Irish people dont share the same belief ;)


  • #2501
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    I know what you mean, but there's more militarism besides in the constitution. And if it's in the constitution it's very hard to argue against. And we still don't need it, and I reckon it offers more harm than good.

    Fair enough.
    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    Where does that say that they don't have to make concessions to private interests to allow competition? All that means is that they can't stop the state from providing public services, it doesn't say they don't have to allow entry to the private sector in any way shape or form.

    So Lisbon should include a clause preventing the member states from allowing entry to the private sector? That is, setting what the member states may or may not do with their public services?

    No, that would be entirely unacceptable. I may not want people to vote for health privatisation, but I respect their right to do so. It wouldn't be acceptable for Ireland to sign up to a treaty that outlawed private sector entry to public services provision. That's a matter to be settled between us and the government we elect, not set in stone in an international treaty.
    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    I can see why it's hard for you to understand; you don't know what you're talking about.

    In the EU, farmers are in the unique position of not being allowed set the price for their own produce. Only dairies, granaries, meat factories, etc are in a position to name the price, and as it's only the buyer naming that price, it's a bad price for the farmers. In theory, you can take your business elsewhere, but each other dairy will make an excuse for milk. The dairies are effectively a cartel.

    The supermarkets certainly haven't helped but the fact is, when we originally joined the EU, prices went way up, and have gone steadily down ever since. They set the prices consumers pay, not the prices farmers get paid. With milk, for example, it's the dairies. A supermarket does make 40c profit on a litre of milk that a farmer gets paid 20c total for, that's true. But if they started paying 20c/l more to the dairies, do you think the farmers would get any of it?

    Prices for Irish farmers were bad long before Tesco, Aldi and Lidl came here. That's a fact.

    The subsidies are bull****, farmers don't want a handout, they just want to get the value of their labour for what they produce without having to go begging to anyone.

    So why don't they all get together and hold out for more money from the dairies? They can't, that's illegal.

    Hm. What did any of that have to do with the EU? I said that I appreciated farmers weren't getting a workable price out of their produce, and that they were dependent therefore to a fair extent on EU subsidies.

    All you've done is repeated the point, and been angry and resentful about it. The EU doesn't set farm prices low. I'm not sure who you are blaming - a dairy cartel? What's that got to do with the EU? Why do you claim farmers can't take collective action? They appear, from what I've seen, to do it all the time.

    As far as I can tell, you're blaming the EU for giving farmers subsidies, because the farmers don't want subsidies, but to make an honest living. Fine, but so? Why are the low prices the EU's fault? Without the EU you'd have low prices, dairy cartels, and no subsidies. What happens then?

    seriously,
    Scofflaw


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  • #2502
    defence forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭defence forces


    Ah to hell with this i'm off to vote NO with my postal ballot, and go on and on and on and on as to way I voted no for the next two weeks I love democracy.


  • #2503
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Hydrosylator wrote: »
    True, but I'm not going to vote based on my hope that the next swing goes to the left or even the centre. Will the next swing of national governments be to the right? If it echoes the recent European elections it will.


    Well, there's the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, that's one thing that springs to mind. Of course, everyone except us did that, not just the right wing governments. The fact is there hasn't been an opportunity for it to work in that way yet, not that we'd notice. Today the only thing under QMV is the European Economic and Social Committee. I don't know about you, but I had to go and look up what they do.

    So before now, it's been irrelevant what 64% of the European Council thinks, because it's been 100% or nothing on everything except a think-tank until now.

    With Lisbon ratified, would they always vote the same way? I don't want to find out.

    It's not that I believe that it would happen, it's that it could happen. Look at the number of EU countries who signed up to the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq. That's military collaboration for money right there. Money meaning nice deals with the US, for the most part.

    Could it happen on an EU only basis? Who knows. It could happen in 5 years, 50 years or never. Would it be in the interest of the human race to do what we can from making it a possibility? I think so. I don't want Europe acting like the USA or China.


    I don't have faith in the guarantees for two reasons. They're not part of the Treaty, and the Treaty is self-amending. That said, the guarantees haven't addressed my (and a lot of other people's) main concerns about Lisbon anyway.


    That's debatable and of course, impossible to prove one way or another.
    Prices for beef and dairy have gone steadily downwards since we joined the EEC, before you even take inflation into account.

    Another fact is that the EU went to the Doha Rounds of the WTO with this promise:

    Link

    Fortunately for EU farmers, the talks collapsed for other reasons. We might not be as lucky next time.

    Good post overall and it's too late to give a non drink fuelled reasoned response!

    I'll get a chance tomorrow night! Not ignoring you!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2504
    bobgob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭bobgob


    just to get all the (right partys in ) I spoke to Gay Michael today on Henry street , I asked him about where we are on workers rights (on Lisbon) and told him where I was.

    He told me I had nothing to worry about as our rights were "copper fastened" in the agreement,

    when I explained that a multinational company in profit had sacked me for not agreeing to a 55% wage cut he grabbed a feckin baby and brought the child over to a wheelchair user, I cant compete with that.

    Make up your own mind but as I say I never had anything to do with politics untill it came to my door, call me left call me anything you want but its not right and its not fair, workers will lose and their is no voice for the ordinary working people of Ireland in europe.


  • #2505
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    bobgob wrote: »
    just to get all the (right partys in ) I spoke to Gay Michael today on Henry street , I asked him about where we are on workers rights (on Lisbon) and told him where I was.

    He told me I had nothing to worry about as our rights were "copper fastened" in the agreement,

    when I explained that a multinational company in profit had sacked me for not agreeing to a 55% wage cut he grabbed a feckin baby and brought the child over to a wheelchair user, I cant compete with that.

    Make up your own mind but as I say I never had anything to do with politics untill it came to my door, call me left call me anything you want but its not right and its not fair, workers will lose and their is no voice for the ordinary working people of Ireland in europe.

    So you're Voting No because multinational companies are moving to areas with lower wages?


  • #2506
    bobgob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭bobgob


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    So you're Voting No because multinational companies are moving to areas with lower wages?
    No im voting no because workers rights are going to be comprimised.

    Its very specific not about nama or the goverment, its about Lisbon and our (race to the bottom)


  • #2507
    bobgob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭bobgob


    The company I am (was) working for is not moving out of the country, they are just moving the jobs from average industy wage to (just around the corner) and minnium wage, and are in profit up 4% on last year.

    Who made the profits for them, are we just to be thrown to the loins.

    This is a fecking outrage and if they get away with it every worker in the country will be doing the same and where will the tax revenue come from then, golf clubs, tennis clubs I dont think so.

    Lisbon does nothing for the working person in Ireland, it will only give these kind of employers another stick to beat us with.


  • #2508
    brennaldo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭brennaldo


    im 17:(, but i want a no vote, so will someone vote no for me ha, thanks :p


  • #2509
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    You do realise they're trying to run a business, right?


  • #2510
    bobgob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭bobgob


    Rb wrote: »
    You do realise they're trying to run a business, right?
    And sacking thier workers who have the best averages in their group and have made them more money over the years than any other franchise is right, get a ****ing grip, short term gain long term loss.

    They cant get away with it now under our countrys legislation and will fail, but my point is if we vote yes they can and will drive this country and its workers back 25 years, we will all work underground and the tax revenue will be nill, can you not see the early 1980s coming around again.
    500,000 on the dole, mass public unrest and no one paying a penny in tax, jeasus grow up and get into the real world


  • #2511
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    bobgob wrote: »
    And sacking thier workers who have the best averages in their group and have made them more money over the years than any other franchise is right, get a ****ing grip, short term gain long term loss.

    They cant get away with it now under our countrys legislation and will fail, but my point is if we vote yes they can and will drive this country and its workers back 25 years, we will all work underground and the tax revenue will be nill, can you not see the early 1980s coming around again.
    500,000 on the dole, mass public unrest and no one paying a penny in tax, jeasus grow up and get into the real world

    Can you lend any weight to your rather weak looking argument with something from the Lisbon Treaty to support it?


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  • #2512
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Loads upon loads of people have lost their jobs, what makes you so special? I know you're probably angry over it, but at the end of the day businesses operate to make money and if they need to, they'll cut costs, including labour costs. It's a known fact that labour has been way overpriced here for quite some time.

    Anyway, as marco polo said, you're making quite frivilous claims as to what the Lisbon Treaty is going to do to this country without any form of backing the statement up, so please point to what exactly in the treaty is going to set Ireland back to the 1980's. Otherwise it is just going to seem as though you're voting to try to spite your former employer, or those running businesses here.


  • #2513
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    bobgob wrote: »
    No im voting no because workers rights are going to be comprimised.

    Its very specific not about nama or the goverment, its about Lisbon and our (race to the bottom)

    Eh, if this was genuinely something that would bring about a race to the bottom why the **** would the Irish Congress of Trade Unions be campaigning for it? I'm genuinely shocked that people are actually swallowing the "bad for workers' rights line." I mean why the hell would something that seriously undermined workers' rights be attracting so much union support? Never mind Labour party support etc.


  • #2514
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    bobgob wrote: »
    The company I am (was) working for is not moving out of the country, they are just moving the jobs from average industy wage to (just around the corner) and minnium wage, and are in profit up 4% on last year.

    Who made the profits for them, are we just to be thrown to the loins.

    This is a fecking outrage and if they get away with it every worker in the country will be doing the same and where will the tax revenue come from then, golf clubs, tennis clubs I dont think so.

    Lisbon does nothing for the working person in Ireland, it will only give these kind of employers another stick to beat us with.

    There has to be more to it than that. What you describe is a way to destroy a business, not make it more competitive. If a company which is in profit starts sacking employees and hiring new ones at half the wages, it will drain confidence and motivation from the entire workforce. The new employees will not be as productive as the old for a long while and there will be massive training costs. It will inevitably lead to slips in production and quality of service across the workforce and will end up in industrial disputes. The slide in production and quality of service will drive the companies customer to the competition and the companies profits will drop.


  • #2515
    defence forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭defence forces


    bobgob wrote: »
    The company I am (was) working for is not moving out of the country, they are just moving the jobs from average industy wage to (just around the corner) and minnium wage, and are in profit up 4% on last year.

    Who made the profits for them, are we just to be thrown to the loins.

    This is a fecking outrage and if they get away with it every worker in the country will be doing the same and where will the tax revenue come from then, golf clubs, tennis clubs I dont think so.

    Lisbon does nothing for the working person in Ireland, it will only give these kind of employers another stick to beat us with.
    yes brother now you are getting it. even if they claim that it will create jobs something I doubt, i.e. they introduce another form of industry and one has to retrain for it only for it to disappear for a minimum wage market elsewhere. It's truely absurd to ratify this thing. When the so called celtic tiger was booming people had enough money to ratify without thinking about the consequences.

    I had some staunch Fianna Fáil supporter say to me that the main reason Irish people are voting no is because we are stupid and have been spoilt (the fukin arrogance!). I worked as a courier on and off for 4 years and courier companies are unregulated and naturally they took advantage of the cheap labour market leaving me, no joke. a third level grad earning €200-250 a week for around 3 of those 4 years , and I wasn't alone. Our native industries are disappearing such as fishing and farming. They (the yes camp) have the cheek to say that we are spoilt and are turning are backs on europe after all they have done for, done what? taken nearly all of our native industries and given us 4 lane motorways to drive 20 miles? along with unsustainable development we cant all be driving bmw x5's for the next 50 years now can we? when we ourselves are unsustainable getting grain from the ukraine and other goods from China, how is that progress may I ask?

    besides has no-one thought about the social tensions that will exist in the next 20-50 years in Ireland, it will be something akin to france. Put it another way we are an island in the Atlantic there is only so much room, we are not phyically connected to Europe (where expansion of roads and cities is easy). I really don't understand these yes arguements they seem to based on nothing once you scratch the surface. Or they are statements given to them by the parties they are loyal to.

    Anyway even if we vote NO and ask to leave the EU. We will allways have to play by europes rules, with respect to trade, all goods for export from Ireland will have to meet europes standards, however this could change. Last year when there was a food shortage europe decided that they would revoke a directive which stated and I am not kidding that odd shaped vegtables could not be sold in shops! what sort of directive is that, and then we have a food shortage. (Norway is not fully part of europe but thier food goods i.e. dried fish have to meet EU directives, which puts a strain on fishermen)

    The way I see it I would gladly burn my UCD degree for a job as a labourer on a farm or working on a fishing boat. If we leave Europe now we could in theory regain control of our fishing rights and farmers might not need subsidies as the world is having a food shortage. And for once regardless of tax duty etc we could set our own prices (its food. People need to eat and Ireland has very fertile grounds).

    So what do you want? another snobby kid like me who had the benefits of private second level education and has a third level degree, who is considered a west brit and a D4, getting into positions of power or doing made up jobs in finance an getting paid absurd amounts of money. for expensive cocaine habits, prostitutes, drinking in snobby drinking holes. While his cousins OD on heroin because they can't find jobs or pay off thier mortgages. I have seen this with my own eyes and no amount of propaganda from the yes side will convince me. When I can see the start of the deterioration of Irish society. There is no spirituality anymore in this country just greed and money, and one upping thier own brother.

    As one final note, I would like to give an abstract example of what it means to be in Europe. If anyone is aware of knock airport. well that was built at the request of a bishop so that pilgrims could have easier ascess to the shrine (there is a ref to it in father ted), anyway the government here at the time refused on the grounds that it was not nessesary and they could not afford, so what did the bishop do well he went to the americans who funded it, and how do americans build things might you ask? well 2-3 metre foundations (I think ) and over a mile long, now aside from small two engine planes what sort of plane do you think could land on something like that, yes folks a B52 fully laden with nuclear weapons. Of course the yanks said: we wont be using it we promise, but you know guys if there is a nuclear war....... now I am sorry but some people are under some sort of myth that we have taken more from europe than we have given, look around you really close and think about it.

    Forget everthing I said and ask yourself what is the real cost of development on a island nation that is still divided north/south?




    (notae bene: I will not apologuise for any grammaical or spelling mistakes everything I have written is what I have experienced seen and been educated in, if your so good at that sort of thing be a teacher, I have no interest in your comments, mainly it exposes your own ignorance, funny that yes supporters are like that mmmmm.)


  • #2516
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    defence forces wrote: »
    yes brother now you are getting it. even if they claim that it will create jobs something I doubt, i.e. they introduce another form of industry and one has to retrain for it only for it to disappear for a minimum wage market elsewhere. It's truely absurd to ratify this thing. When the so called celtic tiger was booming people had enough money to ratify without thinking about the consequences.

    I had some staunch Fianna Fáil supporter say to me that the main reason Irish people are voting no is because we are stupid and have been spoilt (the fukin arrogance!). I worked as a courier on and off for 4 years and courier companies are unregulated and naturally they took advantage of the cheap labour market leaving me, no joke. a third level grad earning €200-250 a week for around 3 of those 4 years , and I wasn't alone. Our native industries are disappearing such as fishing and farming. They (the yes camp) have the cheek to say that we are spoilt and are turning are backs on europe after all they have done for, done what? taken nearly all of our native industries and given us 4 lane motorways to drive 20 miles? along with unsustainable development we cant all be driving bmw x5's for the next 50 years now can we? when we ourselves are unsustainable getting grain from the ukraine and other goods from China, how is that progress may I ask?

    besides has no-one thought about the social tensions that will exist in the next 20-50 years in Ireland, it will be something akin to france. Put it another way we are an island in the Atlantic there is only so much room, we are not phyically connected to France. I really don't understand these yes arguements they seem to based on nothing once you scratch the surface. Or they are statements given to them by the parties they are loyal to.

    Anyway even if we vote NO and ask to leave the EU. We will allways have to play by europes rules, with respect to trade, all goods for export from Ireland with have to meet europes standards, however this could change last year when there was a food shortage europe decided that they revoke a directive which stated and I am not kidding that odd shaped vegtables could not be sold in shops! what sort of directive is that, and then we have a food shortage.

    The way I see it I would gladly burn my UCD degree for a job as a labourer on a farm or working on a fishing boat. If we leave Europe now we could in theory regain control of our fishing rights and farmers might not need subsidies as the world is having a food shortage. And for once regardless of tax duty etc we could set our own prices (its food people need to eat and Ireland has very fertile grounds).

    So what do you want? another snobby kid like me who had the benefits of private second level education and has a third level degree, who is considered a west brit and a D4, getting into positions of power or doing made up jobs in finance an getting paid absurd amounts of money. for expensive cocaine habits, prostitutes, drinking in snobby drinking holes. While his cousins OD on heroin because they can't find jobs or pay off thier mortgages. I have seen this with my own eyes and no amount of propaganda from the yes side will convince me. When I can see the start of the deterioration of Irish society. There is no spirituality anymore in this country just greed and money, and one upping thier own brother.

    As one final note, I would like to give an abstract example of what it means to be in Europe. If anyone is aware of knock airport. well that was built at the request of a bishop so that pilgrims could have easier ascess to the shrine (there is a ref to it in father ted), anyway the government here at the time refused on the grounds that it was not nessesary and they could not afford, so what did the bishop do well he went to the americans who funded it, and how do americans build things might you ask? well 2-3 metre foundations (I think ) and over a mile long, now aside from small two engine planes what sort of plane do you think could land on something like that, yes folks a B52 fully laden with nuclear weapons. Of course the yanks said: we wont be using it we promise, but you know guys if there is a nuclear war....... now I am sorry but some people are under some sort of myth that we have taken more from europe than we have given, look around you really close and think about it.

    Forget everthing I said and ask yourself what is the real cost of development on a island nation that is still divided north/south?



    alot of opinion

    but no figures or references provided to backup your rambling about how

    withdrawing from EU would be great for Ireland

    and turn us all into farmers and fishermen :rolleyes:




    some questions for you:

    * if we withdraw from EU where would you sell you produce?

    * are you honestly suggesting we trade microchip industries for potatoes?

    * you seriously cant expect the country to regress a hundred years or more to an agrarian utopia :( ?

    * what sort of a fairytale world do you think we live in?

    * what is you UCD degree in?

    * have you ever worked on a farm?

    * do you have any figures to backup your "eire-go-backwards" thesis?


  • #2517
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    defence forces wrote: »
    Forget everthing I said...
    Done.


  • #2518
    Johnnnybravo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Johnnnybravo


    defence forces wrote: »
    yes brother now you are getting it. even if they claim that it will create jobs something I doubt, i.e. they introduce another form of industry and one has to retrain for it only for it to disappear for a minimum wage market elsewhere. It's truely absurd to ratify this thing. When the so called celtic tiger was booming people had enough money to ratify without thinking about the consequences.

    I had some staunch Fianna Fáil supporter say to me that the main reason Irish people are voting no is because we are stupid and have been spoilt (the fukin arrogance!). I worked as a courier on and off for 4 years and courier companies are unregulated and naturally they took advantage of the cheap labour market leaving me, no joke. a third level grad earning €200-250 a week for around 3 of those 4 years , and I wasn't alone. Our native industries are disappearing such as fishing and farming. They (the yes camp) have the cheek to say that we are spoilt and are turning are backs on europe after all they have done for, done what? taken nearly all of our native industries and given us 4 lane motorways to drive 20 miles? along with unsustainable development we cant all be driving bmw x5's for the next 50 years now can we? when we ourselves are unsustainable getting grain from the ukraine and other goods from China, how is that progress may I ask?

    besides has no-one thought about the social tensions that will exist in the next 20-50 years in Ireland, it will be something akin to france. Put it another way we are an island in the Atlantic there is only so much room, we are not phyically connected to Europe (where expansion of roads and cities is easy). I really don't understand these yes arguements they seem to based on nothing once you scratch the surface. Or they are statements given to them by the parties they are loyal to.

    Anyway even if we vote NO and ask to leave the EU. We will allways have to play by europes rules, with respect to trade, all goods for export from Ireland will have to meet europes standards, however this could change. Last year when there was a food shortage europe decided that they would revoke a directive which stated and I am not kidding that odd shaped vegtables could not be sold in shops! what sort of directive is that, and then we have a food shortage. (Norway is not fully part of europe but thier food goods i.e. dried fish have to meet EU directives, which puts a strain on fishermen)

    The way I see it I would gladly burn my UCD degree for a job as a labourer on a farm or working on a fishing boat. If we leave Europe now we could in theory regain control of our fishing rights and farmers might not need subsidies as the world is having a food shortage. And for once regardless of tax duty etc we could set our own prices (its food. People need to eat and Ireland has very fertile grounds).

    So what do you want? another snobby kid like me who had the benefits of private second level education and has a third level degree, who is considered a west brit and a D4, getting into positions of power or doing made up jobs in finance an getting paid absurd amounts of money. for expensive cocaine habits, prostitutes, drinking in snobby drinking holes. While his cousins OD on heroin because they can't find jobs or pay off thier mortgages. I have seen this with my own eyes and no amount of propaganda from the yes side will convince me. When I can see the start of the deterioration of Irish society. There is no spirituality anymore in this country just greed and money, and one upping thier own brother.

    As one final note, I would like to give an abstract example of what it means to be in Europe. If anyone is aware of knock airport. well that was built at the request of a bishop so that pilgrims could have easier ascess to the shrine (there is a ref to it in father ted), anyway the government here at the time refused on the grounds that it was not nessesary and they could not afford, so what did the bishop do well he went to the americans who funded it, and how do americans build things might you ask? well 2-3 metre foundations (I think ) and over a mile long, now aside from small two engine planes what sort of plane do you think could land on something like that, yes folks a B52 fully laden with nuclear weapons. Of course the yanks said: we wont be using it we promise, but you know guys if there is a nuclear war....... now I am sorry but some people are under some sort of myth that we have taken more from europe than we have given, look around you really close and think about it.

    Forget everthing I said and ask yourself what is the real cost of development on a island nation that is still divided north/south?




    (notae bene: I will not apologuise for any grammaical or spelling mistakes everything I have written is what I have experienced seen and been educated in, if your so good at that sort of thing be a teacher, I have no interest in your comments, mainly it exposes your own ignorance, funny that yes supporters are like that mmmmm.)


    The opinion of a man that posts in personal issues looking for advice on beating up his girlfriend means nothing to normal people:mad:


  • #2519
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Johnnnybravo wrote: »
    The opinion of a man that posts in personal issues looking for advice on beating up his girlfriend means nothing to normal people:mad:

    hes also leaving the country again

    the opinion of someone who wouldn't be here to live thru the consequences of his communist ideas (all the land in ireland would have be confiscated and giant coops would need to be in place in order to provide employment for 2 million people :D )


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62185412&postcount=5687


  • #2520
    Johnnnybravo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭Johnnnybravo


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    hes also leaving the country again

    the opinion of someone who wouldn't be here to live thru the consequences of his communist ideas (all the land in ireland would have be confiscated and giant coops would need to be in place in order to provide employment for 2 million people :D )


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62185412&postcount=5687

    I havent read another thing by the guy and dont wish to either. PS Him leaving couldnt come quick enough. How dare he ask advice on beating up a woman and going into detail about not usuing a pillow to soften it. Beyond sick.

    Just to keep on topic here, Im a NO voter.


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  • #2521
    defence forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭defence forces


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    alot of opinion

    but no figures or references provided to backup your rambling about how

    withdrawing from EU would be great for Ireland

    and turn us all into farmers and fishermen :rolleyes:




    some questions for you:

    * if we withdraw from EU where would you sell you produce?

    * are you honestly suggesting we trade microchip industries for potatoes?

    * you seriously cant expect the country to regress a hundred years or more to an agrarian utopia :( ?

    * what sort of a fairytale world do you think we live in?

    * what is you UCD degree in?

    * have you ever worked on a farm?

    * do you have any figures to backup your "eire-go-backwards" thesis?

    YES!!! Eire go backwards indeed I believe the figures I have to go on is reality such as rising food prices worldwide, rising populations.
    I have a degree in environmental science (I could only presume under your sort of logic that would make me a hippy!) my thoughts are about sustainable development. Now I could be wrong on this but I had heard something about oil running out and that even nuclear power is a finite resource. so when the oil runs out and we convert large tracts of land for bio fuel. How do you sir, assume we can grow food?
    I have worked on farms I worked in the shipping industry and unfortunetely I can't work on fishing boats as there is no work. This treaty is about laying down framework for the next 50 years of the European Union. When the oil runs out and silicone is no longer available for your microchips! what do you intend eat?.
    500-600 Ireland was covered not extensively but in a large part by woodland, a lot of which the british cut down, that is a fact. that is why we are seeing mud scales, however this was due to recent deforestation.

    I can't stand those daft back of the pub arguements i'm right you know it, we eat microchips and pave everything concrete and give people jobs doing it. I've already voted NO with a postal ballot there is no way to change it. But I can voice opinion and conjecture! I do know I am right that it is unsustainable development if you can't see that may god help you (then again your the sort that swallow's the party line and lives for thier bmw X5 flat screen fantasy). I'm not going to make you vote yes. but at least come up with something that makes sense and clarifies why one should vote yes. otherwise keep your nit picking and your party line to yourself mate.

    Might I ask what sort of degree you have? is it in eating microchips? yessss nooooo......


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