Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Shortest LSR to run a marathon?
Comments
-
Interesting thread. I wouldn't mind some advice here. As a Marathon is not my main focus this year I am not following any kind of Marathon program for the DM.
Mileage roughly 20-25 per week up to now. Next week is a half ironman so I'll be running 13.1 off the bike. So low running mileage and plenty of cycling up to now.
My problem lies in selecting the optimum pace and getting the most out of 4 weeks Marathon prep.
So 4 long runs... how can I get the best out of them? Also, what would be the best indication that I could hold a target split for 26.2?
Thanks
0 -
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
So a total of 22 miles with 15 of those very close to race pace and 5 miles at the end of those, at race pace.
Like I said, not for the faint of heart.
Which schedule is that from? I have teh Daniels book here and I can't find that particular workout in the marathon plans
...aside from that, quicker is generally better...
I wouldn't agree with that at all, I'm afraid. I've no doubt that at shorter distances then over-race speed training may be important but in a marathon at novice level endurance is king. Even marathon runners chasing fast times need the endurance to get them past the distance first and speed later. For example my PMP is 6:45 - 6:50 per mile. My 10k pb is a little under 6:10 per mile. So my speed isn't the issue. My speed endurance (ability to maintain a sub maximal pace for teh required distance) is a huge problem though. And running quicker than race pace will not automatically improve my speed endurance. P&D for example have proven that VO2 max (the best predictor of success at middle distance running) is much less significant at marathon distance. Therefore training to improve VO2 max (short intervals) is largely irrelevant for almost all marathon runners.
As Rusty hints above working at different HR intensities conditions different systems. The proven best way to improve CV fitness, endurance, resilience, economy and efficiency for marathon running is through LSRs and easy runs, all at sub race pace. I would estimate that anything between 60 - 80% of my mileage in any given week is slower than PMP and that's pretty normal for a marathon plan.0 -
--amadeus-- wrote: »Which schedule is that from? I have teh Daniels book here and I can't find that particular workout in the marathon plans
I wouldn't agree with that at all, I'm afraid. I've no doubt that at shorter distances then over-race speed training may be important but in a marathon at novice level endurance is king. Even marathon runners chasing fast times need the endurance to get them past the distance first and speed later. For example my PMP is 6:45 - 6:50 per mile. My 10k pb is a little under 6:10 per mile. So my speed isn't the issue. My speed endurance (ability to maintain a sub maximal pace for teh required distance) is a huge problem though. And running quicker than race pace will not automatically improve my speed endurance. P&D for example have proven that VO2 max (the best predictor of success at middle distance running) is much less significant at marathon distance. Therefore training to improve VO2 max (short intervals) is largely irrelevant for almost all marathon runners.
As Rusty hints above working at different HR intensities conditions different systems. The proven best way to improve CV fitness, endurance, resilience, economy and efficiency for marathon running is through LSRs and easy runs, all at sub race pace. I would estimate that anything between 60 - 80% of my mileage in any given week is slower than PMP and that's pretty normal for a marathon plan.
All that is completely irrelevant. I quite clearly said that the reason for running slow is to preserve the body. It's very simple: if injury prevention wasn't an issue, it would be better to do cover 30 miles in your 3 hour training run than to cover 20 miles in 3 hours.0 -
All that is completely irrelevant. I quite clearly said that the reason for running slow is to preserve the body. It's very simple: if injury prevention wasn't an issue, it would be better to do cover 30 miles in your 3 hour training run than to cover 20 miles in 3 hours.
I'm trying to find a polite way to put this but I can't. The reason for running slow is NOT to preserve the body.
The point of running slowly is to train your body to work more efficiently, for example by accessing fat as a fuel source and so preserving glycogen. It's also to accumulate time on your feet. Again back to P&D and they peak at 22 - 24 miles with the advice that your longest run should last as long as your predicted race time. It's about building physical and mental endurance. Yes running below PMP will "preserve your body" in the sense that it won't do as much damage as long runs at race pace but you're putting the cart before teh horse to say it is a reason for running slow. The main driver is to run long (both mileage and distance). Running slow is a by product of that need.
And over distance training (30 miles in 3 hours rather than 20) is strictly for teh elites. I don't know if you have access to it but a good start off point is HH book "Marathon: The ultimate Training and Racing Guide", chapter 10, p123 - 136.0 -
--amadeus-- wrote: »
I'm trying to find a polite way to put this but I can't. The reason for running slow is NOT to preserve the body.
The point of running slowly is to train your body to work more efficiently, for example by accessing fat as a fuel source and so preserving glycogen. It's also to accumulate time on your feet. Again back to P&D and they peak at 22 - 24 miles with the advice that your longest run should last as long as your predicted race time. It's about building physical and mental endurance. Yes running below PMP will "preserve your body" in the sense that it won't do as much damage as long runs at race pace but you're putting the cart before teh horse to say it is a reason for running slow. The main driver is to run long (both mileage and distance). Running slow is a by product of that need.
And over distance training (30 miles in 3 hours rather than 20) is strictly for teh elites. I don't know if you have access to it but a good start off point is HH book "Marathon: The ultimate Training and Racing Guide", chapter 10, p123 - 136.
If the speed is so slow that it is uncomfortable it is unlikely to be very efficient. The biomechanics would be unnatural which could lead to problems. At such a speed you could speed up and still be burning fat stores (and thus preserving glycogen).0 -
-
Interesting thread. I wouldn't mind some advice here. As a Marathon is not my main focus this year I am not following any kind of Marathon program for the DM.
Mileage roughly 20-25 per week up to now. Next week is a half ironman so I'll be running 13.1 off the bike. So low running mileage and plenty of cycling up to now.
My problem lies in selecting the optimum pace and getting the most out of 4 weeks Marathon prep.
So 4 long runs... how can I get the best out of them? Also, what would be the best indication that I could hold a target split for 26.2?
Thanks
Hey Amadeus I'm in same boat as MCOS above, would love to hear your thoughts ..0 -
-
-
--amadeus-- wrote: »
I'm trying to find a polite way to put this but I can't. The reason for running slow is NOT to preserve the body.
I disagree.--amadeus-- wrote: »The point of running slowly is to train your body to work more efficiently, for example by accessing fat as a fuel source and so preserving glycogen.
Provided you spend the same length of time on your feet, how does running slowly do this moreso than running quickly?--amadeus-- wrote: »It's also to accumulate time on your feet. Again back to P&D and they peak at 22 - 24 miles with the advice that your longest run should last as long as your predicted race time. It's about building physical and mental endurance. Yes running below PMP will "preserve your body" in the sense that it won't do as much damage as long runs at race pace but you're putting the cart before teh horse to say it is a reason for running slow. The main driver is to run long (both mileage and distance). Running slow is a by product of that need.
The only reason running quickly prevents accumulating time on your feet is injury/fatigue risk.--amadeus-- wrote: »And over distance training (30 miles in 3 hours rather than 20) is strictly for teh elites. I don't know if you have access to it but a good start off point is HH book "Marathon: The ultimate Training and Racing Guide", chapter 10, p123 - 136.
Not relevant.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
--amadeus-- wrote: »Which schedule is that from? I have teh Daniels book here and I can't find that particular workout in the marathon plans
I wouldn't agree with that at all, I'm afraid. I've no doubt that at shorter distances then over-race speed training may be important but in a marathon at novice level endurance is king. Even marathon runners chasing fast times need the endurance to get them past the distance first and speed later. For example my PMP is 6:45 - 6:50 per mile. My 10k pb is a little under 6:10 per mile. So my speed isn't the issue. My speed endurance (ability to maintain a sub maximal pace for teh required distance) is a huge problem though. And running quicker than race pace will not automatically improve my speed endurance. P&D for example have proven that VO2 max (the best predictor of success at middle distance running) is much less significant at marathon distance. Therefore training to improve VO2 max (short intervals) is largely irrelevant for almost all marathon runners.
If you go to the section on "marathon pacing" you'll find that workout, I think its chapter 5. He uses the VDOT value as a basis for this session. So if you look up your VDOT value and then pick one thats 4 points below yours then thats your starting point for the first few miles block. Then you take the next VDOT value and repeat, and so on until you come to your own race pace value. I'll have a look at the book later and give you the exact page.
In regards to the issues about pacing, I think we could go on all night arguing whats the best approach: You believe in the LSR approach I believe in the race pace approach. I suppose when it comes down to it what works for one person doesnt work for another and ultimatley nobody can tell you what your limits are and what sort of approach you should take. Thats something every person must find out for themselves. So I think we'll just have to agree to disagree:)0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement