Sub 3 in Berlin ??

village runner · 20-08-2009 12:09PM

Tuesday was an easy 33 miles on hte bike at 16mph. We went on a new road and lets say it was an experience. The new waterford to Dublin road that aint finished.

Wednesday.
I was heading to the dentist so i deciced to do a long one on the threadmill as it was milling outside. Chickened out but the flu is the last thing i want.

7.5 at 8 min miles
7.5 at 7.17 miles
5 miles at 6.50 miles.

Felt great after it that i could have ran for longer but time was scarce. Gum infection cleared. So happy out.

Rusty Cogs 08 · 20-08-2009 01:28PM

That's a great predator 20 miler VR. What's your (general) plan for the next 30 days before Berlin ?

Carb · 20-08-2009 02:06PM

village runner wrote: »

7.5 at 8 min miles
7.5 at 7.17 miles
5 miles at 6.50 miles.

:eek: On a treadmill. Fair play. I'm sure you didn't come across many dogs then.

Have you found the bike any help with your running, or do you see them as completely independent.

village runner · 21-08-2009 03:40PM

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

That's a great predator 20 miler VR. What's your (general) plan for the next 30 days before Berlin ?

I am on hols so i am training like a professional(which i aint) for the nxt 10 days. Double days and cycling. I am in good shape just need to watch the diet for 3 weeks. If i dropped 6 ibs which is def doable i will do a good time.

For example after a 20 miler wednesday i followed it up with a 48 mile cycle thursday at 16mph. Felt very easy and could have gone on further.

Friday 7am
3 mile slow warm up and went onto threadmill as i was a little tired and wouldnt sustain a hard run on my own. 400 metres warm up. 3 miles in 18 min. 4 min rec jogging. 2 miles in 12min and 3 min rec jogging and then 1 mile in six min. All in all 11 miles.

I plan to run a slow hour with a friend later at 7pm.

Tomorrow morning its 3 hours on hte bike with a 6 mile run tomorrow night.
So all in all its early morning and late evening training but i will take it easy from 1 september.
Do a 6 mile race on the 4th and half marathon at marathon pace the 7th(day after the all ireland) and my last session 10 days before marathon. 8 days before it i will do 10 miles at marathon pace.

Last 4 weeks running should read
75,45,35,25
I wont go on hte bike after the 6th

village runner · 21-08-2009 03:44PM

Carb wrote: »

:eek: On a treadmill. Fair play. I'm sure you didn't come across many dogs then.

Have you found the bike any help with your running, or do you see them as completely independent.

I havent done enough on the bike to know. But it gets me fitter with the impact of hitting the ground and the bonus is i am enjoying it. Two months ago i thought i made a mistakes dishing out a lot of money on one.
I turned around on hte bike yest as there was \a big dog eyeing me up and not in the good way.

asimonov · 21-08-2009 04:59PM

village runner wrote: »

I turned around on hte bike yest as there was \a big dog eyeing me up and not in the good way.

i didn't know there was a good way :eek:

ike · 21-08-2009 05:05PM

village runner wrote: »

a big dog eyeing me up

Story of your life....:D

village runner · 23-08-2009 10:42AM

Friday
After aspeed session early friday 3 miles,2 miles, 1 mile i ran 9 MILE at 9 min miles making it 20 for the day.

Sat
49 miles on the bike @ 15.3 mph
Later thqt evening i ran 6 miles @ 8 min miles.
Double days are a great plus.

village runner · 23-08-2009 03:07PM

Body tired today so i planned to do a 10 miler on the threadmill. On entering the gym i met a decent runner which i went outside to do 5 miles with him in 35 minutes. Then went inside to threadmill to do 2km at 8 min miles and 5km in 18.35. Jogged warm down 4.2km so all in all 12 miles.

Plan is to do a slow 90 min on the bike later. I am very happy with the way i am going. 9 hard days to go. Then its the lovely taper.

ike · 23-08-2009 09:38PM

Its all looking good!

asimonov · 24-08-2009 06:40PM

village runner wrote: »

Body tired today so i planned to do a 10 miler on the threadmill. On entering the gym i met a decent runner which i went outside to do 5 miles with him in 35 minutes. Then went inside to threadmill to do 2km at 8 min miles and 5km in 18.35. Jogged warm down 4.2km so all in all 12 miles.

Plan is to do a slow 90 min on the bike later. I am very happy with the way i am going. 9 hard days to go. Then its the lovely taper.

good going, see you friday.

village runner · 28-08-2009 08:37AM

SundAY 6PM
33 mile on the bike at 15.3 mph. Nice and slow yet turning the legs.

Monday
6am
41 miles on the bike at 16mph

8pm
4 mile run and 20 min of weights

Tuesday
On hols so went to gym.
10km in 45 min and 40 min cycle with some weights thrown in.

Wednesday
10 miles at 7am in gymat 7.10 a mile
Later that day I done 6 miles at 8 min miles. I also done some squats wednesday(4 x 15) and really paid for it thursday.

Thursday
Off although i did 20 min in the gym

Today
Plan is to run 20 miles and as it is my last one i hope to do it at marathon pace. Feel an ear infection coming on but it could be the mind games again.

Rusty Cogs 08 · 28-08-2009 09:39AM

village runner wrote: »

Today
Plan is to run 20 miles and as it is my last one i hope to do it at marathon pace. Feel an ear infection coming on but it could be the mind games again.

Ooh, controversial, 20 miles at marathon pace. Can I ask what's prompted such a long MP training run (3 weeks out from Berlin) ? i.e. is this a schedule your following or just something you want to do to give you confidence and/or fitness for the big day ?

Sosa · 28-08-2009 11:41AM

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

Ooh, controversial, 20 miles at marathon pace. Can I ask what's prompted such a long MP training run (3 weeks out from Berlin) ? i.e. is this a schedule your following or just something you want to do to give you confidence and/or fitness for the big day ?

Have to agree with the above,the longest MP run on my schedule is 18 w/14 @ MP and thats about 5 weeks out.
With only 3 to go for you i would certainly not do more than that,but thats just me,i figure that if thats what the experts say,who am i to do it differently.
You could do it,but its the recovery after it thats the issue

Woddle · 28-08-2009 12:43PM

I was flirting with the idea of doing similar this Saturday. I asked Cathrina McKiernan at the Dublin marathon comp Q&A about did she ever give the long run a lash, she said no never always easy and that she just had faith in her training. After this response I realised it's because I don't have the faith in my training because I've been lazy that had me thinking of doing it. Needless to say I'm not going to be attempting it now based on her advice.

Krusty_Clown · 28-08-2009 12:51PM

Interesting approach. The difference in pace between a 20 mile race and a 26 mile race is only 7 seconds per mile. So you're essentially doing a 20 mile race, three weeks before your marathon. You're a braver man (woman?) than me! I plan to hit pmp for my 20 this weekend, but only for 3-5 miles.

asimonov · 28-08-2009 08:57PM

Class work out today! You'll tear Berlin up, well done.

ike · 28-08-2009 09:00PM

Sure was ran with him for 10km looked strong and running smooth - that workout will be the difference between hoping to run sub 3 and actually running sub 3.

3 is weeks plenty of time to recover

Rusty Cogs 08 · 31-08-2009 12:08PM

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree. I would think that no training run should take three weeks (or anything like it) to recover from. Any long run should be at a pace where by you're recovered enough to throw yourself back into shorter (tempo) training mid-week. I think running 20 miles at PMP is just to much effort and strain on your body and IMO tempting injury or at least impaired training runs for the following 7/10 days.

As sort of alluded to by KC, 20 miles @ PMP is not training, it's racing and that's going to take it's toll. My 2 cents

Krusty_Clown · 31-08-2009 12:19PM

Probably the wrong place to discuss it (sorry!) but I read in a different thread that Tunguska (aiming for 2:35 in Dublin), is doing 22 mile runs at 7/mm and hopes to shift these up to PMP soon. So different strokes for different folks! If you can recover from a 20 mile pmp run quickly without any side effects (injuries, hitting your peak too early), than it's got to be an advantage.

Rusty Cogs 08 · 31-08-2009 01:27PM

My final thought (as it's VR's log, not a thread on LSR's V's PMP). While I can see the allure of running long at PMP from a confidence perspective I'm yet to be convinced of it's physical benefit from a training perspective.

If you can run PMP for 20 miles and recover in time for mid week tempo runs and do so without attracting injuries / fatigue then you might consider revising your goal marathon time upwards (faster).

(sorry for the hijack VR)

village runner · 31-08-2009 01:51PM

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

My final thought (as it's VR's log, not a thread on LSR's V's PMP). While I can see the allure of running long at PMP from a confidence perspective I'm yet to be convinced of it's physical benefit from a training perspective.

If you can run PMP for 20 miles and recover in time for mid week tempo runs and do so without attracting injuries / fatigue then you might consider revising your goal marathon time upwards (faster).

(sorry for the hijack VR)

friday
33km at 4.16km pace

Sat
48 easy miles on the bike follwed by a game of golf.

Sunday
2 mil warm up 2 mile warm down
10 km in 40 minutes. Went with a LAD AND THOUGHT IT WAS TOO SLOW FOR A TEMPO so i did 5km on threradmill in 18.32.
Later on in the day i did 20 miles easy on the bike.

Now i am in the taper. I said i would train hard for 10 days and i surely done that.

Regards the long run i feel i have already recovered from it. time will tell in berlin but i am now hoping to run 2.55
Plan is to run 1.28 flat aT HALFWAY and then have fun. And we all love the 2nd half.

Dont mind the interesting comments.

Racing Flat · 31-08-2009 01:55PM

Jerry Kiernan likes his training group, when targetting Berlin marathon to run the first 20miles of Longford marathon 5 weeks earlier at planned marathon race pace. But they have to stop at 20. A year or two ago one of them was feeling good so decided to continue for the last 6.2miles at Longford, but ended up just missing out on his target time. From what I hear, Jerry was not happy. Another girl in he group went from 3.12 to 2.56 using this (as part of her) approach.

Peckham · 31-08-2009 01:56PM

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

If you can run PMP for 20 miles and recover in time for mid week tempo runs and do so without attracting injuries / fatigue then you might consider revising your goal marathon time upwards (faster).

+1 to this - being able to handle a 20 mile PMP run 3 weeks out from the big event suggests you're being too conservative with your goal time, but it looks like you've already decided this yourself.

Not sure why you did this. The risk-reward ratio is very much skewed towards risk (i.e. injury, leaving your best run in training etc.). Much of what PMP is about is confidence, and you should already have that.

village runner · 31-08-2009 01:56PM

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Probably the wrong place to discuss it (sorry!) but I read in a different thread that Tunguska (aiming for 2:35 in Dublin), is doing 22 mile runs at 7/mm and hopes to shift these up to PMP soon. So different strokes for different folks! If you can recover from a 20 mile pmp run quickly without any side effects (injuries, hitting your peak too early), than it's got to be an advantage.

Running fast two days after a long run was great. Last year i couldnt break 40 min for a 10km yesterday it felt easy. All down to hard training and losing 19ibs of butter.

Everyone has different plans. It has worked in the past. I would have rathered have done hte long one last week but it didnt happen.

Thanks for that.

Sosa · 31-08-2009 02:10PM

Peckham wrote: »

being able to handle a 20 mile PMP run 3 weeks out from the big event suggests you're being too conservative with your goal time

I wouldn't totally agree with that Peckham,i reckon i could do 20 @ MP 3 weeks beforehand...its to keep going for the last 6.2 thats the problem.
Just because i think i could do that does not mean i think i could go sub 2:55 for example.

On the back of these last few posts i may do a 20m run with [EMAIL="16@MP"]16@MP[/EMAIL] for my last 20 miler...or then again i may not

I have done 8's,10's and a 12 @ MP in recent weeks and will be doing the KK half @ MP in a few weeks also.

Well done VR ,obviously confidence is high now and i look forward to reading your report of Berlin

Rusty Cogs 08 · 31-08-2009 02:12PM

Racing Flat wrote: »

Jerry Kiernan likes his training group, when targetting Berlin marathon to run the first 20miles of Longford marathon 5 weeks earlier at planned marathon race pace. But they have to stop at 20. A year or two ago one of them was feeling good so decided to continue for the last 6.2miles at Longford, but ended up just missing out on his target time. From what I hear, Jerry was not happy. Another girl in he group went from 3.12 to 2.56 using this (as part of her) approach.

First off, some great training there VR, if your feeling good after those 3 days then I'd say 2'55" is on the cards.

Regarding JK's training, it wouldn't be for everyone to run 20 miles of a marathon and then stop but the experience (and it being 5 weeks out from your goal marathon) would have to count from something.

As for 3.12 to 2.56, if there were a lot of these PMP runs in her schedule (?) I'd be more convinced of the approach.

village runner · 01-09-2009 08:24PM

Very interesting comments lads particularly Jerry Kiernans story.

Monday
10 miles at 9 min miles with a friend

Tuesday
6 miles at 8.30

Feel the dreaded mouth ulcers coming on again. Wont run now till friday although might do a few easy miles on hte bikes to loosen up the legs.

Slogger Jogger · 01-09-2009 09:59PM

Just catching up on your recent training. You're flying. Keep it going.

Racing Flat · 02-09-2009 02:03PM

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

Regarding JK's training, it wouldn't be for everyone to run 20 miles of a marathon and then stop but the experience (and it being 5 weeks out from your goal marathon) would have to count from something.

As for 3.12 to 2.56, if there were a lot of these PMP runs in her schedule (?) I'd be more convinced of the approach.

I don't train with the group but kow a few people who do. The approach has had some good success with some runners struggling to break 20mins for 5k running sub 3, others have not done so well perhaps. The person who wnet form 3.12 to 2.56 is a very good female runner with a 61min 10mile PB. She ran 3.15, then 3.12 and then joined JK's group after a summer of which she ran 2.56. She was worried during the training as he had her doing very few races abd he slowed her speed right down in training. What she found great was the long tempo run - on a Tuesday or Thursday they's do 11miles or so at slightly faster than marathon pace IIRC. When they did intervals, he was always shouting at them to slow down. And a kep part was always running 20miles at marathon pace, under race conditions, hence they'd ryun the first 20 of Longford and get picked up at 20 miles when training for Berlin and when she was training for Dublin she ran the half at marathon pace, ran through the finishing chute picked up her medal, threw it in the bin and carried on at that pace for another 7 miles.

I don't know the exact specifics of the training but in general terms everything was slowed down, high speed work and racing were minimised, but it didn't work for all of them.

Sub 3 in Berlin ??

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