Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

CliodhnaB · 01-09-2009 07:51PM

Dinner wrote: »

Except your view 'forgets' to add in all the work that has been done since the last vote.

If the situation was "wrong answer, try again" then my opinion would be very different. But it's not like that. Some no campaigners will continue to say that this is the case but it very very clearly isn't.

But the response by the government was to try to address the problems that the Irish people had, I find it to be a good example of democracy in action, find and address the issues and see if that is acceptable to the public.

Which bit is undemocratic?

just to remind you on the name of the thread.
'How do YOU intend to vote'
Gave my opinion and yet some stranger is questioning it? debate all you want but on the day i will still be voting no. and hopefully it will rejected again and we'll see how many more times they push it on us. banana republic. Laters :P

CliodhnaB · 01-09-2009 07:52PM

tonycascarino wrote: »

I see it like that too...:)

Im delighted you do

Dinner · 01-09-2009 07:53PM

CliodhnaB wrote: »

just to remind you on the name of the thread.
'How do YOU intend to vote'
Gave my opinion and yet some stranger is questioning it? debate all you want but on the day i will still be voting no. and hopefully it will rejected again and we'll see how many more times they push it on us. banana republic. Laters :P

So what your saying is that regardless of any facts that you are missing, you don't want to know?

Grand so. CliodhnaB, Champion of Democracy. :pac:

CliodhnaB · 01-09-2009 07:56PM

im not the only narrow minded person in this country. but why should we do it again??
brian cowen wouldnt get a look in wit ya.... you'll try tell me his doing a good job now hahahahahaha

:pac:

and your dead right... they had there chance already and couldnt do it right. they expect us to be on hand then to vote again cause we know more..... why didnt they do that to start with?

Dinner · 01-09-2009 07:58PM

CliodhnaB wrote: »

but why shd we do it again??

I'm gonna guess that you don't want me to answer that because you don't care what the answer is?

CliodhnaB wrote: »

brian cowen wouldnt get a look in wit ya.... you'll try tell me his doing a good job now hahahahahaha

I've been called many things in my time, but a Fianna Fail supporter is by far the worst.

CliodhnaB · 01-09-2009 08:02PM

Your dead right.

Im delighted that i take that award. :rolleyes:

Spiritoftheseventies · 01-09-2009 10:14PM

Dinner wrote: »

They didn't reject our choice. The treaty was not ratified.

The studies that were undertook after the vote showed that a lack of knowldge was the main cause of rejection followed by reasons that were addressed through the guarantees.

With some of the issues sorted out it is not undemocratic to have a second vote.

"some of the issues sorted"?

Dinner · 01-09-2009 10:19PM

bayviewclose wrote: »

"some of the issues sorted"?

Was my wording confusing?

Spiritoftheseventies · 01-09-2009 10:22PM

Dinner wrote: »

Was my wording confusing?

No that suggests that not "all" of the issues are sorted with regards to treaty. I was just looking for clarification.

Dinner · 01-09-2009 10:28PM

bayviewclose wrote: »

No that suggests that not "all" of the issues are sorted with regards to treaty. I was just looking for clarification.

I hold back on saying "all issues have been sorted" for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, if I did say all then there would be a queue of no voters jumping on that single line claiming that their issues were never sorted or that the issues that were sorted were blown out of proportion so they weren't important or something like that.

And secondly because some people have an issue with the EU and hate to even think that it is being given any more power. Obviously, no protocol will appease this issue.

So the 'some' part is to possibly save me some hassle in a future post, not because I believe that there is a genuine concern that can be sorted out that wasn't sorted.

Grissom · 01-09-2009 10:34PM

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

I have already voted on Lisbon. I won't do it again.

Hi Eire. The fact that you have already voted and the government have chosen to ignore the mandate of you and everybody else in the country should motivate you to go out and vote in protest at the government rejection of the overwhelming will of the people. There is no doubt that part of the governments strategy is that people will not come out on the day to vote because of the same reasons as you......

CliodhnaB wrote: »

just to remind you on the name of the thread.
'How do YOU intend to vote'
Gave my opinion and yet some stranger is questioning it? debate all you want but on the day i will still be voting no. and hopefully it will rejected again and we'll see how many more times they push it on us. banana republic. Laters :P

I too will be votinf NO......for the above reasons and some of my own;)

Spiritoftheseventies · 01-09-2009 10:44PM

Dinner wrote: »

I hold back on saying "all issues have been sorted" for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, if I did say all then there would be a queue of no voters jumping on that single line claiming that their issues were never sorted or that the issues that were sorted were blown out of proportion so they weren't important or something like that.

And secondly because some people have an issue with the EU and hate to even think that it is being given any more power. Obviously, no protocol will appease this issue.

So the 'some' part is to possibly save me some hassle in a future post, not because I believe that there is a genuine concern that can be sorted out that wasn't sorted.

No all that needs to be said is to bring up the gaurentees. But by saying some issues you imply not all. And I understand your reasons now but at the time it did not imply that. Wont get bogged down in details anyway.

meglome · 01-09-2009 10:44PM

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

I have already voted on Lisbon. I won't do it again.

Good for you. I like people who can make summary decisions.

It's a pity there's no rule in this country about multiple votes. It's a pity that having more democratic votes logically is more democratic.

meglome · 01-09-2009 10:58PM

Grissom wrote: »

Hi Eire. The fact that you have already voted and the government have chosen to ignore the mandate of you and everybody else in the country should motivate you to go out and vote in protest at the government rejection of the overwhelming will of the people. There is no doubt that part of the governments strategy is that people will not come out on the day to vote because of the same reasons as you......

You know if something is said over and over it won't make it true, when it isn't. The government asked people in detail why they voted No and got guarantees on most of those points. I may really dislike our government but I have to say that was very democratic of them, it's one of the only good things I have to say about them.

And let's be clear on the 'overwhelming' will of the people. There was roughly a 54% No vote out of 50 odd percent who voted. So that would mean that 25%(ish) of our voters voted No, not exactly overwhelming. My maths are rough but at least they have some reality in them.

Grissom wrote: »

I too will be votinf NO......for the above reasons and some of my own;)

Are those reasons in the treaty or not in the treaty like the ones above?

WeeBushy · 01-09-2009 10:59PM

Grissom wrote: »

Hi Eire. The fact that you have already voted and the government have chosen to ignore the mandate of you and everybody else in the country should motivate you to go out and vote in protest at the government rejection of the overwhelming will of the people. There is no doubt that part of the governments strategy is that people will not come out on the day to vote because of the same reasons as you......

Do you not think the fact that the government has addressed the concerns arising from the first vote is important?

Say you and a friend wanted to go on a holiday. He has some concerns about the holiday so says no, I wont go. You then address these concerns and ask him again would he like to come. Wouldn't you consider it a bit stupid of him to say "I said NO the first time and even though you have addressed my concerns I'm still saying no, how dare you ask me again."?

Treora · 01-09-2009 11:16PM

WeeBushy wrote: »

Say you and a friend wanted to go on a holiday. He has some concerns about the holiday so says no, I wont go. You then address these concerns and ask him again would he like to come. Wouldn't you consider it a bit stupid of him to say "I said NO the first time and even though you have addressed my concerns I'm still saying no, how dare you ask me again."?

Say you went on a holiday with that travel company and the hotel wasn't there when you arrived (the builders never finished due to bankruptcy). When you return home you find out that the company has stuck to the contract with other clients and F**** them over, just like they are doing to you now. In the nicest possible way they say that the guarentees are grand but a contract is a contract is a contract and they tried to stick to the guarentee, but the contract won out.

freefromgov · 01-09-2009 11:22PM

Hi all I made a little video and placed it on youtube asking the people of mainland europe to pick a name out of the Irish telephone directory and to send them a post card letting them know how they would have voted (If they'd had a vote) there are over half a billion euorpeans, and we get to decide their fate ! Not very democratic IMHO, I would not like to be abroad and Irish if a yes vote got carried
However if the Irish people vote no we will be hailed as the Heros of europe, and maybe then the People of europe might just get a chance to have their say. Untill then IMHO it would be immoral to vote yes even if you think the Treaty of Lisbon is a good thing. Ok that's my ten cents.
Oh! here is the link to the video if you wish to view it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bFibFbkZZU

marco_polo · 01-09-2009 11:24PM

Treora wrote: »

Say you went on a holiday with that travel company and the hotel wasn't there when you arrived (the builders never finished due to bankruptcy). When you return home you find out that the company has stuck to the contract with other clients and F**** them over, just like they are doing to you now. In the nicest possible way they say that the guarentees are grand but a contract is a contract is a contract and they tried to stick to the guarentee, but the contract won out.

But the guarantees in this instance are a de facto contract as well.

WeeBushy · 01-09-2009 11:25PM

Treora wrote: »

Say you went on a holiday with that travel company and the hotel wasn't there when you arrived (the builders never finished due to bankruptcy). When you return home you find out that the company has stuck to the contract with other clients and F**** them over, just like they are doing to you now. In the nicest possible way they say that the guarentees are grand but a contract is a contract is a contract and they tried to stick to the guarentee, but the contract won out.

The guarantees are part of that contract. They are not separate. One is not superior to the other as they are part of the same thing. How many times does this have to be said?

meglome · 01-09-2009 11:26PM

freefromgov wrote: »

Hi all I made a little video and placed it on youtube asking the people of mainland europe to pick a name out of the Irish telephone directory and to send them a post card letting them know how they would have voted (If they'd had a vote) there are over half a billion euorpeans, and we get to decide their fate ! Not very democratic IMHO, I would not like to be abroad and Irish if a yes vote got carried
However if the Irish people vote no we will be hailed as the Heros of europe, and maybe then the People of europe might just get a chance to have their say. Untill then IMHO it would be immoral to vote yes even if you think the Treaty of Lisbon is a good thing. Ok that's my ten cents.
Oh! here is the link to the video if you wish to view it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bFibFbkZZU

But they did have a vote, they voted in Pro-Lisbon governments. I seem to have missed when the people of Europe asked us to vote for them, when did that happen?

WeeBushy · 01-09-2009 11:28PM

freefromgov wrote: »

However if the Irish people vote no we will be hailed as the Heros of europe, and maybe then the People of europe might just get a chance to have their say. Untill then IMHO it would be immoral to vote yes even if you think the Treaty of Lisbon is a good thing. Ok that's my ten cents.
Oh! here is the link to the video if you wish to view it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bFibFbkZZU

Hang on, you're saying vote no on something even if you think it's right for the sake of what some euoprean citizens might think?

What kind of warped logic brought you to this idea?

Dinner · 01-09-2009 11:29PM

freefromgov wrote: »

Not very democratic IMHO,

But as I'm sure you already know niether the EU nor Lisbon have nothing, nothing at all to do with how treaties are ratified. Thats down to each individual country and government.

Still it's nice of you to pass judgement on their democratic system. wonder how you'd react if they did it to us.

Nice video by the way. Little biased for my tastes.

Scofflaw · 01-09-2009 11:30PM

freefromgov wrote: »

Hi all I made a little video and placed it on youtube asking the people of mainland europe to pick a name out of the Irish telephone directory and to send them a post card letting them know how they would have voted (If they'd had a vote) there are over half a billion euorpeans, and we get to decide their fate ! Not very democratic IMHO, I would not like to be abroad and Irish if a yes vote got carried
However if the Irish people vote no we will be hailed as the Heros of europe, and maybe then the People of europe might just get a chance to have their say. Untill then IMHO it would be immoral to vote yes even if you think the Treaty of Lisbon is a good thing. Ok that's my ten cents.
Oh! here is the link to the video if you wish to view it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bFibFbkZZU

If you're going to vote on behalf of the People of Europe, you shouldn't vote either way until you know what they would have wanted - and the majority of those who have voted on anything like the proposals in Lisbon have voted Yes.

Also, I have to say I don't recall any great outpouring of thanks to the Irish for the first No vote - with the exception of British MEPs wearing green jerseys. Were there parties?

Finally, I do wish people would stop moving the goalposts. You can either insist that we're voting on behalf of Europe, or you can insist that it's important that every country votes independently, but you can't insist on both.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bustertherat · 01-09-2009 11:52PM

I'll be voting no to lisbon!!!!

What would James Connolly have voted for??

He would have voted for freedom!!!!

Our forefathers gave their lives for freedom and independence and i'll be damned to hand that over to brussells!!!

A United States of Europe i pray not!!!!

A vote for Yes is one step closer to totalitarianism!!!!

Catsmokinpot · 01-09-2009 11:54PM

After not really caring for some time about this Lisbon treaty, i am going to vote yes for two reasons:

1. Because of Christians and their anti-abortion agenda.

2. Because of the lies from the anti-Lisbon side over the minimum wage and a few other things.

K-9 · 02-09-2009 01:30AM

bustertherat wrote: »

What would James Connolly have voted for??

I wonder that myself. I think he'd be so disappointed with us, the Irish people, from around about 1922.

marco_polo · 02-09-2009 01:51AM

K-9 wrote: »

I wonder that myself. I think he'd be so disappointed with us, the Irish people, from around about 1922.

I think he might vote yes actually. The Irish record on stalling progressive european working rights legislation in cohorts with the UK is most impressive. The latest example was the Temporary Agency Workers Directive. Which we finally relented on in late 2008.

The first proposal for a directive regulating temporary agency work was issued by the European Commission in 1982. However, agreement has not yet been reached on the directive, even though most of the EU Member States support the proposals to provide equal treatment rights to temporary agency workers similar to those enjoyed by people directly employed in the same undertaking. To date, equal treatment rights have been opposed by a blocking minority of countries – notably Ireland, Poland and the UK.

meglome · 02-09-2009 03:22AM

bustertherat wrote: »

I'll be voting no to lisbon!!!!

What would James Connolly have voted for??

He would have voted for freedom!!!!

Our forefathers gave their lives for freedom and independence and i'll be damned to hand that over to brussells!!!

A United States of Europe i pray not!!!!

A vote for Yes is one step closer to totalitarianism!!!!

Do you even believe this rubbish?

One thing I do think is James Connolly would be incredibly angry about the bull**** being spouted in his name.

Spiritoftheseventies · 02-09-2009 07:17AM

Catsmokinpot wrote: »

After not really caring for some time about this Lisbon treaty, i am going to vote yes for two reasons:

1. Because of Christians and their anti-abortion agenda.

2. Because of the lies from the anti-Lisbon side over the minimum wage and a few other things.

Its your vote but not really a good use of one. Just as voting No to get back at government is not a good use of one.

WeeBushy · 02-09-2009 08:13AM

bayviewclose wrote: »

Its your vote but not really a good use of one. Just as voting No to get back at government is a good use of one.

Just as voting No to get back at the government is or isn't a good use of your vote?

I hope that was just a typo

Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

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