Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

I am definately voting No, how dare they ask us to vote again.
Our democratic rights are being put to the test. We said no, therefore the Eu should have drawn up a new treaty not tack on some pathetic "legal guarantees"

I was originally against the treaty, and this time I am still against it but now I feel more passionate in getting a No vote.

Democracy spoke and the Eu didn't listen! - Now lets shout and see if they listen!

No one can defend this treaty anymore, voting Yes to this treaty undermines our democracy- the very thing that we and other countries have fought for in the past. We should stand-up for ourselves and what we said last June, hopefully this time there will me more voters voting No.

NO to Lisbon "2"- on behalf of democracy!

marco_polo wrote: »

Sorry, after this line I had tears in my eyes from laughing so hard that I couldn't read the rest of your post.

I have bolded the words that stood out as the highlights for me.

By the way that line was at the end, so you must have a funny way of reading.

pity you didnt highlight the "yes"
maybe the way I said it was wrong, but what I meant is that if the Lisbon treaty goes through then why should we bother voting on future treaties etc.
as the Eu will cast aside what we say until they get what they want.

Democracy is great but the Eu dont seem to think so.

K-9 wrote: »

SF and Martin Ferris fought for democracy. I'm voting Yes.

even though SF are against the treaty?

I noticed that you quoted what I said but obviously you and others misunderstood what I was trying to say.

What I meant to say is two posts above.

Dinner wrote: »

Except they didn't cast aside democracy. Quite the opposite.

Lisbon was rejected, so the government asks why (through surveys such as the Millward Brown survey).

The result was the the majority of no voters didn't understand it with about a quarter saying reasons like taxation, neutrality, the commissioner etc.

The government goes to the EU with these findings and the EU draws up the guarantees.

In light of these guarantees the Irish government decides to have another referendum, because they feel that the issues of a sizable number of voters have been solved. (And the issue of voters not understanding can be dealt with through a better run campaign).


To me this is democracy in action. The government finds, and addresses the concerns of the public.

So which part is undemocratic? Was Nice II or Maastricht II or Divorce II undemocratic?

Should the entire treaty be rejected because a large number of people don't understand it or didn't know what was and was not in it?

Well in regard to this point, it is up to the government to inform the people of the advantages/disadvantages of voting either way. They had plenty of time to inform the people but as usual Fianna Fail weren't up to the job. The survey is subject to many faults, if it was done elsewhere the finding could have been different.

At the end of the day, Cowen went back to the Eu, him nor the Eu satisfied and from that moment on there was talks of a second referendum- plenty of videos on youtube eg,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wr25t7I96M

The cost of re-running the referendum is a disgrace, while services are being cut left right and centre, millions are being spent on a referendum which has already been done a year previous.

Oh, and yes Nice II was undemocratic <- what % of the Eu population had a say?

If the Eu was being democratic then all citizens from all the Eu countries would have a say!

The Eu even said that if any country rejected the treaty, then the treaty was dead.

@ Dinner :fair enough I respect your opinion.

Divorce 2 was different as the country modernised and changed in those years.

"You do realise that how countries ratify treaties is nothing to do with the EU right?"
-This is what I have a problem with, the politicians are deciding things too frequently and are not involving the public in important decisions that affect their lives.

If the Lisbon treay is ratified, the 27 country limit is lifted and that of course will have a big impact on us.

"Wouldn't it be better to decide to have a referendum when the government feels that there is a sufficient shift in public opinion, or that issues have been solved rather than plucking and arbitrary number from the air?"
-I agree with this, but I dont think the issues have been resolved. Legal guarantees? come on, the treaty should have been altered.

With regards to last years campaign, there were Yes signs all over the place, with a few No vote signs. If the people had no idea what they were voting for they would have seen all the yes signs- the government, fine gael etc. and simply voted yes.

It seems that we are being bullied though imo. A couple of days after the No vote was revealed there were lots of politicians and people from other countries saying that we should have voted yes because we received so much from the Eu in the past.

People have also been talking about our relationship with the Eu, and even going as far as commenting on our membership after the vote. We were being portrayed as the "the bold boys in the class."

Sparks43 wrote: »

I understand the treaty i respect all opinions but my honest vote will be NO

my twitter campaign starts soon

http://twitter.com/VOTE_NO_LISBON

with the recession we are living in a scared country one that will believe the EU is the only way out

We may suffer in the short term, but for the future we must vote NO

I fully agree, well said!

Dinner wrote: »

Well that's an issue for each country to decide themselves. We don't have any business sticking our noses into their business in the same was they don't into ours. If the population of a country want to have regular referenda on anything that affects them then they should start a movement in their country. Although I imagine it would cost a lot that could better spent, y'know, when services are being cut and all.

touché

I'm sure that some wording could have been included in the treaty to clarify the Eu's position on tax etc, which I'm sure could have been done at very little cost.:P

marco polo wrote:

Also there is precious little evidence to suggest the majority of EU citizens are very unhappy with the EU at present, or that their Governments have ratified Lisbon.

Most governments have ratified the treaty already. under at a glance section :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

Also, I dont think the Eu should have a High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.
This and the dubbed "President of Europe", along with the flag and motto is looking more and more like becoming a federal state similar to that of the USA.

marco polo wrote:

Also there is precious little evidence to suggest the majority of EU citizens are very unhappy with the EU at present

The French and Dutch rejected the constitution, enough evidence.

I have read many statements here saying by in large Europeans are pro lisbon.

From all my friends working in EU institutions both here in Luxembourg and in Brussels and from the coverage of the media I can assure you that is not at all the case.

If anything, the French, Germans and Dutch people I know living here in Luxembourg are sceptic which is ironic considering they all work in the institutions of the E.U. here.

Not that we don't appreciate the fat cat salaries and expected pensions but the direction is a political union(federal system akin to the U.S.) even if tax harmonisation and other large scale issues take 50 years to establish a common accord.

The worry here is Ireland voting no again before the next UK election - the conservatives getting into power in the U.K. and forcing a British referendum.

It is a foregone conclusion what the British public think of the Lisbon treaty.

Anyways, greetings from Luxembourg and good luck with the referendum.

There is a lot of debate going on here locally as to how it will go...also what is currently happening in Germany in relation to the treaty.

I say vote if you have read and understood the lisbon treaty and not the interpretation of another party/group/individual.

if so, turnout should be .00000001% of the population.

Ciao

lykoris wrote: »

I have read many statements here saying by in large Europeans are pro lisbon.

From all my friends working in EU institutions both here in Luxembourg and in Brussels and from the coverage of the media I can assure you that is not at all the case.

If anything, the French, Germans and Dutch people I know living here in Luxembourg are sceptic which is ironic considering they all work in the institutions of the E.U. here.

Not that we don't appreciate the fat cat salaries and expected pensions but the direction is a political union(federal system akin to the U.S.) even if tax harmonisation and other large scale issues take 50 years to establish a common accord.

The worry here is Ireland voting no again before the next UK election - the conservatives getting into power in the U.K. and forcing a British referendum.

It is a foregone conclusion what the British public think of the Lisbon treaty.

Anyways, greetings from Luxembourg and good luck with the referendum.

There is a lot of debate going on here locally as to how it will go...also what is currently happening in Germany in relation to the treaty.

I say vote if you have read and understood the lisbon treaty and not the interpretation of another party/group/individual.

if so, turnout should be .00000001% of the population.

Ciao

To me you're advocating a No vote, if not explicitly then certainly implicitly, so I think your views on the opinions of other Europeans should be taken with a grain of salt, remember Qui se ressemble s'assemble
And for the record, .00000001% of the Republic's population is 0.00045 people which after rounding is effectively 0 people, in other words we shouldn't have a referendum... I know you probably meant it as a joke but it's still sending a certain message.

Greetings to Luxembourg also and thanks for your good luck wishes

.

lykoris wrote: »

yes, it was meant as a joke. I also understand how you can think I have an implicit interest in a No vote.

Honestly, I don't really care if it is yes or no as I will still get my salary at the end of the month.

I was giving the impression that people I talk with everyday through work/socially here in a Luxembourg are not all fanatically pro lisbon nor fervently opposed to it. It is more a lot of scepticism as to the process of how it is being brought into effect i.e. rulings in the German high court this summer and again a 2nd referendum in Ireland.

Essentially, roughly 1% of the population of the E.U. will decide on something as crucial as the lisbon treaty. A document that is unreadable to the ordinary European citizen.

Personally I like the idea that either it is a European wide referendum put to the people of Europe or that representative democracy be used to ratify it across the board for all 27 member states.

Referenda are illegal in some EU countries like Germany where they were sued for Hitler to do his thing, also in Italy when it comes to foreign matters


there is a reason why people of these countries voted in elected representatives

to represent them in a Representative democratic system, just because the Irish system is slightly different doesnt mean we have any right to force our ways on other countries

comprende?

a. referenda occur at a state level in Germany all the time and are 100% legal. While at the federal level they are not legal it would be possible to have state wide votes.

so you're completely incorrect to state that "referenda are illegal in Germany."

b. I don't speak Italian but this would suggest that legislative & constituional referenda can occur in Italy under certain circumstances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Italy

so the blanket statement that referenda are illegal in Italy is another point you have made that is incorrect

These are two countries for which solutions could be found if they wanted to put the question to the people of Europe. 2/27.

and while you may think you are conversing with Basil from Faulty Towers given your Spainish comment at the end :pac: I think it distracts from the points you make(even if they are incorrect) and makes you look foolish. I assume you regularly use automatic derision to discredit somebody rather than debate a point being made. I wonder if you actually speak Spainish or did you have to google it :P

As I said before, I don't mean to enter into this, I have no vested interest and firmly believe the content of this thread will have no statistical bearing on the outcome of the Irish vote.

What made me post ?

I read numerous sentences in various posts (by Irish people living in Ireland) whilst I paraphrase, Europeans are all pro Lisbon and all want the Irish to vote yes.

The one point I wanted to make was to give the impression from my local perspective here that the above 'European perspective' isn't at all accurate.

I've been living/working here(Luxembourg) for the past 7 years and have friends/colleagues throughout the European institutions here in Luxembourg/ quite a few in Brussels also and it is not all pro lisbon the way the prior messages would appear to tell you.

It's not all negative either or anti-Lisbon.

There is a lot of scepticism in relation to the Lisbon treaty and the way it is being ratified.


In retrospect, perhaps I should have directly addressed what was being said and stated it is audacious to state you know what the people of Europe think. Not that I claim I do but given I read the media coverage of Benelux plus France/Germany (and have lived here for 7 years) I would have a more informed opinion of what Europeans think than some guy in Cork(purely as an example) that only speaks English.

Good luck with the referendum. I hope for a large turnout and that the majority of the voices be heard, whatever that may be

And happy holidays too, although here summer holidays are pretty much over, the month of August.

Ciao