Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's more or less what I mean - although not quite county councils as such - but, yes, local autonomy to as great a degree as possible.



I have to say I don't personally recall the days in question...also, I suspect most people didn't care then either, but they didn't leave much of a record of not caring, as people usually don't, possibly from lack of motivation.

Pardon my cynicism, but I tend to think that the people who really object to, say, government from another country, are those who believe that they would be in charge were it not for the external government - local elites, in other words, who feel they're not getting their rightful place at the top of the heap. If they can persuade a sufficiently large number of the citizenry that foreign rule is odious, they can successfully install themselves in place of the foreign government, whereupon the citizenry will soon enough discover that they've swapped one set of out of touch elites for another, who lack even the excuse of geographical remoteness, and who tend to have entrenched connections within the country that will be favoured above all others. It was the strongest argument I heard in Scotland against Scottish nationalism - "we'll wind up being run from Edinburgh, and at least the English don't distinguish between one bit of Scotland and another". I suspect that many of those who reject current mechanisms of government similarly see themselves governing, rather than being governed, in the proposed new order.

(A warning: anyone foolish enough to interpret the above as a defence of British rule in Ireland will find themselves banned for a week).

cordially,
Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

Question for yes voters:

Suppose that a majority of the elected politicians in the north were in favour of uniting with the republic but the results of an opinion poll held a few months previously showed that the people might feel differently. Would you have a problem with the governments and the politicians in the north going ahead with plans for uniting Ireland without consulting the people directly?

Voltwad wrote: »

Joe Higgins is one out of 13 democratically elected MEP's, what about the opinion of the other 12? Or do you go along with the views of his party that their views are the only ones that count? It is worth remembering that his party (formally knows as the Millitant Tenancy were ejected from the Labour Party in a democratic vote)

As well as that, the only real difference between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail is that one has power and one doesn't. They're both parties close to Centre and both came from the same party so again, very different to the extreme left and extreme right working together.

oscarBravo wrote: »

So you believe that the EU as it currently exists has no legitimacy?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That's how they run their countries. Ireland has a history of having lots of referenda but the rest of Europe doesn't. If they wanted to do have referenda they would have them. Stop telling these countries how they should be run

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

You can no more claim that the support of a majority in Spain and Luxembourg, by outnumbering the no votes in Ireland, France and Holland, constitutes a majority of Europeans in favour of Lisbon, no more than you could argue that the votes of Mayo in the last GE constituted the will of the majority of the Irish people at the time. But even if it did, I reject the majoritarian principle of treating EU citizens as a single constituency/demos, to decide the powers of the EU institutions on the basis of simple majorities.

On the contrary, I believe there are 27 separate demos in the EU, and that none of them should lose sovereignty except by their own free will. Otherwise, we are disavowing the principle of self-determination, which is part of Chapter 1 of the UN Charter. We should also bear in mind all that was sacrificed to secure Irish independence in the first place. If we give it away, then the sacrifices of the patriot dead will have been for nothing.

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote:

What if, post a 'No' in the Republic, a new opinion poll came out or even a referendum, saying the majority in the North were in favour of Reunification, but now they won't reunify, because the Republic has said 'No' to Reunification?

Alan Rouge wrote:

I'm kinda with Voltwad on this. You can't really compare the Lisbon Treaty with a 32 county vote in fairness.

Alan Rouge wrote:

You'll have to elaborate further on this point (including further upon your subsequent posts) though for a better answer.