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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    K-9 wrote: »
    Not a great example tbh.

    The voting record is not publically available. But you are using this to suggest that QMV is fine because governments always vote the same way and will never be outvoted either in the past or the future, no matter who is in power and how national electorates vote. If that were true then the EU would be a one-party state.

    EU law can lack democratic legitimacy in two ways.
    1. It can be imposed by QMV on an outvoted minority, in which case it never had democratic legitimacy in the outvoted countries from day 1.
    2. It can be initially supported by one government, but opposed by the successor of that government who is powerless to change it. Therefore it loses democratic legitimacy over time as new governments are elected.

    The EU needs to be more flexible so that not everyone is forced into 'one size fits all' solutions. Governments that disagree with EU measures (i.e. vote against them in the Council of Ministers) should not have to implement those measures in their country (in areas beyond the common market). We should also be able to elect new government that has a different opinion on something that was previously agreed to at EU level AND HAS THE POWER TO CHANGE IT in this country without asking for a permission slip from multiple other governments and the EU Commission. Without real reform to introduce such flexibility the EU is an ever tightening straight-jacket that reduces national choice and elections to vanishing point over the long-term.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The EU minimum rate of VAT is 15% and the maximum 25% with a few exceptions allowed on specific products. This is an inappropriate area for the EU to legislate in that has frustrated governments from setting the rate of VAT that they wish, and which they ran for office on.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Value_Added_Tax

    Ah, so now you not alone are Anti all democratically passed Treaties after Maastricht, you are anti Ireland in the EU.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Might be worth introducing a couple of facts here, to counter the inaccurate claims being made that Lisbon involves some kind of massive loss of vetoes, and that QMV is used for internal market decisions:

    Lisbon involves the loss of a grand total of 8 vetoes:
    1. Article 48 TFEU - common social security measures to allow for free movement of workers. Has an emergency brake, where if a member state claims that the measures would affect important aspects of their national security system or affect the financial balance of the system, the measure can be halted and referred to the European Council.
    2. Article 53 TFEU - mutual recognition of qualifications.
    3. Article 167 TFEU - adoption of incentive measures for promotion of culture
    4. Article 207 TFEU - limited extension of QMV to negotiation and conclusion of some international agreements under the common commercial policy (not services, FDI, intellectual property, cultural & audiovisual services, social, education, health or transport).
    5. Article 257 TFEU - establishment of judicial panels to hear cases in specific areas or specific actions
    6. Article 283 TFEU - voting procedure for ECB Executive Board
    7. Article 322 TFEU - voting for procedures making budget revenue available to the Commission
    8. Protocol on the Privileges of the EU - decision-making concerning tax and social security of EU officials and other servants moves to QMV and co-decision

    Lisbon also creates one new veto:
    1. Article 329/311 TFEU - Enhanced co-operation within CFSP moves from QMV to unanimity

    There's an extraordinary amount of fuss being made over the loss of those 8 vetoes, and there's also a huge amount of inaccuracy in what's being claimed. There are more new areas of QMV (53 changes involve QMV), but only those 8 involve the loss of an existing veto, and I'd call at least a couple of them entirely trivial. New QMV area != loss of veto.

    I seem to recall, by the way, that some posters have claimed that the increase in Parliament input has been matched by the loss of unanimity arrangements. That's categorically false - there are 64 or so changes that produce co-decision, but only Article 257 and the Protocol on the Privileges of the EU involve a move from unanimity to co-decision. There are also areas where both co-decision and unanimity applies - the two are not incompatible.

    Further to the claim that QMV applies to all areas of the internal market - this is Article 115 TFEU on the approximation of laws for the internal market:
    Without prejudice to Article 114, the Council shall, acting unanimously in accordance with a special legislative procedure and after consulting the European Parliament and the Economic and Social Committee, issue directives for the approximation of such laws, regulations or administrative provisions of the Member States as directly affect the establishment or functioning of the internal market.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Might be worth introducing a couple of facts here ...

    Scofflaw, your erudition and good sense are such that I think you should not be allowed time off. We need you here all the time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    The politicians claim that the 'guarantees' will constitute an international agreement and will be registered with the UN, and that this will make them legally-binding in international law. I question the latter, on the basis that the ECJ has a questionable regard on respect international law insofar as it pertains to the UN. I would specifically refer to an ECJ ruling on September 3rd 2008, where they struck down an EU regulation that was pursuant to a UN Security Council Resolution freezing the assets of named suspected terrorists. A UN Security Council is the highest instrument of international law. If the ECJ can't even comply with that, what chance they would comply with a mere "international agreement" deposited with the UN. Ominously, in their ruling, they actually referred to the UN Security Council Resolution as an "international agreement" - similar to the terminology used by the political elite in this country when attempting to imply the guarantees will not be struck down by the ECJ.:
    On September 3, the European Court of Justice delivered an unprecedented and stunning blow to the international terrorism sanctions regime by annulling the EU freezing of assets imposed on Yassin Al Kadi and Al Barakaat International Foundation pursuant to a UN Security Council Resolution (ECJ Press Release and ECJ ruling.pdf).While intervening countries had raised the “absolute lack of jurisdiction of the (Court) to carry out any review of resolutions of the Security Council”, the Court claimed an indirect competence based on the fact that the UN Security Council Resolution was implemented by EU regulations, and therefore subject to the Court review. The Court added that because the sanctions were not an “act directly attributable to the United Nations as an action of one of its subsidiary organs (…) or an action falling within the exercise of powers lawfully delegated by the Security Council”, no international principle excluded the “judicial review of the internal lawfulness of the (EU) regulation in the light of fundamental freedoms.”
    To establish its competence, the Court argued that “an international agreement cannot affect the allocation of powers fixed by the Treaties or, consequently, the autonomy of the Community legal system”. It follows, according to the Court, that “the obligations imposed by an international agreement cannot have the effect of prejudicing the constitutional principles of the EC Treaty, which include the principle that all Community acts must respect fundamental rights.”
    Therefore, and despite its statement that “the review of lawfulness thus to be ensured by the Community judicature applies to the Community act intended to give effect to the international agreement at issue, and not to the latter as such”, the Court nevertheless reviewed the effectiveness of the UN sanctions procedures themselves, stating that the UN “re-examination procedure does not offer the guarantees of judicial protection” or that “the procedure before (the UN Sanctions Committee) is still in essence diplomatic and intergovernmental, the persons or entities concerned having no real opportunity of asserting their rights.”
    Most of the Court’s critics addressed the absence of rights of defense for the designated individuals or entities in the implementation of the UN sanctions, notwithstanding the fact that member states had no latitude in this regard by virtue of the UN resolutions. Among these rights, the Court mentioned the absence of a “procedure for communicating the evidence justifying the inclusion of the names of the persons” and “for hearing those persons, either at the same time as that inclusion or later.” The Court ruled that “the principle of effective judicial protection has been infringed” and that the regulation imposed an “unjustified restriction of (the) right to property.”
    Following an earlier opinion of the Advocate General to the European Court of Justice, the Court reversed the first instance ruling and decided to annul EU Council Regulation (EC) No 881/2002 of 27 May 2002 imposing certain specific restrictive measures directed against certain persons and entities associated with Usama bin Laden, the Al-Qaeda network and the Taliban in so far as it concerns Yassin Al Kadi and the Al Barakaat International Foundation. The Court provided nevertheless that its effect should be maintained for three months until the implementation of a new regulation to remedy the infringements found, because “Mr. Kadi and Al Barakaat might take steps seeking to prevent measures freezing funds from being applied to them again.”
    The reasoning of the Court to establish its competence ignored or disregarded the most basic principles of normative hierarchy in international law. First, the Court wrongly defined the UN Security Council resolution as an “international agreement”. According to article 103 of the UN Charter, obligations under the Charter (especially binding decisions of the UN Security Council acting under Chapter VII), prevail over ”any other international agreement”, including a community agreement such as the establishment of the European Union. The EU, as any other regional community, is governed by the international legal order under the United Nations. As clearly stated in 1999 by UN Security Council Resolution 1267 (establishing the Al Qaeda and Taliban sanctions regime), member states have an obligation to “act strictly in accordance with the provisions of this resolution, notwithstanding the existence of any rights or obligations conferred or imposed by any international agreement.”
    In that regard, the Court main argument that the EU had established an “autonomous legal system which is not to be prejudiced by an international agreement” is a pure conceptual fiction that doesn’t find any legal basis in international law.
    Faced with what in fact was a conflict of norms (the EU legal system versus the UN legal system) that may, according to international law principles, only be resolved in favor of UN decisions, the Court simply chose to avoid it by stating that “the question of the Court’s jurisdiction arises in the context of the internal and autonomous legal order of the Community”.
    The Court failed to recognize that EU sanctions were in no way “autonomous”, but the direct result of the “binding effect” of the decisions of the UN Security Council taken under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. The best proof of the artificial construction of the Court was provided by the Court itself when it had to review the UN sanctions mechanism and procedures to determine the effectiveness of the rights of defense of the designated individuals and entities, thus recognizing that the EU was only implementing an international obligation which procedures were international in essence, not national. As evidenced in 2005 by the Court of First Instance of the European Communities in the Kadi case, the UE “acted under circumscribed powers, with the result that they had no autonomous discretion. In particular, they could neither directly alter the content of the resolutions at issue nor set up any mechanism capable of giving rise to such alteration.” By reviewing the UN sanctions procedures, the ECJ exceeded its own jurisdiction, limited to the “interpretation or validity of a provision of Community law”, and conventions or measures implementing such provisions (Article 35 of the Treaty on European Union).
    In failing to acknowledge the primacy of obligations under the UN Charter and in allowing itself to reverse UN sanctions, the Court followed a dangerous judicial policy trend toward the fragmentation of international law, in a way that could fundamentally jeopardize the global uniform application of UN sanctions and the coherence of the international legal system.
    In trying to assert the unrealistic legal autonomy of the European legal system through an unrestrained conception of the human rights, the primary effect of this ruling is to undercut everything positive that the UN Security Council has tried to achieve in preventing and combating terrorism.
    The ECJ ruling raises several legal and practical questions. Although it does not immediately affect each EU member state’s individual obligation as member of the UN, to enforce UN Security Council Resolutions, European states will be facing an obvious conflict of law if no new regulation is passed within 3 months.
    We can suppose from this also that given that some of the guarantees were in the form of Council decisions e.g. taxation, abortion and neutrality, that this could be the excuse used by the ECJ to interfere with them. As explained above, the ECJ used the fact that EU regulations were involved as an opening to review the UN Security Council resolutions. Well then, what is to stop them using the fact that European Council decisions were involved with the Lisbon guarantees in similar vein?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭fligedlyflick


    voted yes the last time but no this time, i'll probably eat my ballot paper when we're asked to vote a third time or any other subsequent time until finally democracy and respect of vote is exchanged for euro plaudits from a system who has no democratic values or respect of vote......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    where they struck down an EU regulation that was pursuant to a UN Security Council Resolution freezing the assets of named suspected terrorists. A UN Security Council is the highest instrument of international law.

    you mean the one they didnt strike down, but they struck down the EU's own interpetation which failed to address some basic EU laws so it was struck down but kept in effect for 3 months so it can be put through the institutions again with a concession to a number of EU regulations
    The Court provided nevertheless that its effect should be maintained for three months until the implementation of a new regulation to remedy the infringements found, because “Mr. Kadi and Al Barakaat might take steps seeking to prevent measures freezing funds from being applied to them again.”

    from the article you are quoting.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    voted yes the last time but no this time, i'll probably eat my ballot paper when we're asked to vote a third time or any other subsequent time until finally democracy and respect of vote is exchanged for euro plaudits from a system who has no democratic values or respect of vote......
    Would you do the same for a vote on divorce or abortion? I don't see anyone complaining about us having more than one referendum on those issues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Might be worth introducing a couple of facts here...

    You are wrong. The EU Commision's own website says 50 areas move to QMV.

    http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/lisbon_treaty/questions_and_answers/new_cases_of_qmv.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    You are wrong. The EU Commision's own website says 50 areas move to QMV.

    http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/lisbon_treaty/questions_and_answers/new_cases_of_qmv.pdf


    you complain about other people not reading what your post, yet
    scofflaw wrote:
    There's an extraordinary amount of fuss being made over the loss of those 8 vetoes, and there's also a huge amount of inaccuracy in what's being claimed. There are more new areas of QMV (53 changes involve QMV), but only those 8 involve the loss of an existing veto, and I'd call at least a couple of them entirely trivial. New QMV area != loss of veto.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    you complain about other people not reading what your post, yet

    Whatever way you read it he is wrong, deliberately minimising the significance of Lisbon both in number of changes to QMV and by omitting the most significant new usages of QMV.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    so more then 8 areas involve the loss of an exsisting veto?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    so more then 8 areas involve the loss of an exsisting veto?

    The EU commision document says 23 "existing legal bases moving from unanimity to qualified majority voting" plus 27 "new legal bases requiring qualified majority voting".

    Any reason to take scofflaw seriously on this matter?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    taconnol wrote: »
    Would you do the same for a vote on divorce or abortion? I don't see anyone complaining about us having more than one referendum on those issues.

    Those weren't run the following year after defeat!
    Those also were not part of a pan-european ratification process. Nobody claimed that it would be a huge deal if they were rejected again [apart from the fact that the issue could not be visted again for another number of years].


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    Scofflaw wrote:
    you mean the one they didnt strike down, but they struck down the EU's own interpetation which failed to address some basic EU laws so it was struck down but kept in effect for 3 months so it can be put through the institutions again with a concession to a number of EU regulations
    So in other words, it was struck down after 3 months. Who is to say the same won't happen with the guarantees? And remember this: if anything the guarantees in their purported "international agreement" form will likely have less protection than a UN Security Council Resolution referred to in the article, as there is no higher instrument of international law than a UNSC resolution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    So in other words, it was struck down after 3 months.

    And a law abiding the same resolution was put in to replace it before those 3 months were up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    I'll be voting yes. Couple of things I'd like to hear other people's take on though.

    One side argues the Lisbon Treaty protects worker's rights while the other says it doesn't. Would anyone here agree that most of the rights workers have today in Ireland have come from being in European Legislation rather than from our own Governments down the years? I personally feel that the best way to protect worker's rights is indeed to proceed with Lisbon and continue to work with the EU and other unions across the continent rather than leave it down to the powers that be. The best thing for workers would be the introduction of this social chapter surely? Add to this that John Monks, General Secretary of ETUC actually recommended a yes vote to all of the trade union officials as well. He did of course say he had a few issues with it, overall he was satisfied but nothing is perfect. Of course the 'no' campaigners picked these problems he had with it out of his report, highlighted these and ignored the fact that he supported it overall.
    http://www.ictu.ie/press/2009/07/10/address-by-john-monks-general-secretary-etuc/


    Secondly, I don't accept that the treaty's repeat is undemocratic given that the no side used so many lies and twisting of words the last time. All this bull about babies being conscripted etc sickened me. I feel that the actions of both sides and the lack of willingness of the majority to educate themselves with even the basic points of the treaty combined with the fearmongering of the no side and the laziness of the government threw the idea of a democratic vote out the window.

    The 'no' side is campaigned by extremists on the right (Your Declan Ganleys of this world) as well as extremists on the left (Sinn Fein, Joe Higgins etc). These people wouldn't spit on each other if their counterpart was on fire yet they'll team up to tear the EU down. Compromise is key in advancing in politics yet these kind of people only want what they want at any cost, screw everyone else. I can't fathom how people who actually believe in things like democracy and policies of their respective parties that support the treaty actually follow these 'politicians' in European matters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    So in other words, it was struck down after 3 months. Who is to say the same won't happen with the guarantees? And remember this: if anything the guarantees in their purported "international agreement" form will likely have less protection than a UN Security Council Resolution referred to in the article, as there is no higher instrument of international law than a UNSC resolution.

    Are the guarantees against EU Law?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Whatever way you read it he is wrong, deliberately minimising the significance of Lisbon both in number of changes to QMV and by omitting the most significant new usages of QMV.

    What is the most significant ones, for the tenth time?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Those weren't run the following year after defeat!
    What is the problem with running it a year after defeat?
    Those also were not part of a pan-european ratification process. Nobody claimed that it would be a huge deal if they were rejected again [apart from the fact that the issue could not be visted again for another number of years].
    But again, what is the issue here? That the Lisbon Treaty is very important and therefore we cannot have a 2nd referendum?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    [apart from the fact that the issue could not be visted again for another number of years].

    That part isn't true, the issue could have been revisited the next day, had the government a mind to do so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    So in other words, it was struck down after 3 months. Who is to say the same won't happen with the guarantees? And remember this: if anything the guarantees in their purported "international agreement" form will likely have less protection than a UN Security Council Resolution referred to in the article, as there is no higher instrument of international law than a UNSC resolution.

    Which one of the guarantees concerns you most, if it turned out they weren't legally binding?

    Bearing in mind they don't actually deal with CCCTB, of course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    Oh wait...

    we've had this conversation before...
    The guarantees are as reassuring as "Peace in our Time". :rolleyes:
    OK, which one are you the most worried about?
    The taxation guarantee makes no mention of CCCTB/Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base, which is Commissioner Laslo Kovacs pet project, for which he claimed the support of 2-thirds of member states. He has stated publicly he intends using Enhanced Cooperation to try to get around our veto. CCCTB could mean the Irish tax rates remain the same, but the taxes get paid to the destination countries of sale, costing the Exchequer billions. The workers' rights guarantee is not legally-binding, and this has been acknowledged even by the IIEA on their website.
    If the guarantee is not legally binding, why do you care what it says or doesn't say about CCCTB?

    I'll ask again, if it turned out that the guarantees, which are claimed to be legally binding, in fact, aren't, which one worries you the most?

    You have an admirable ability to answer questions that weren't asked, by the way.
    The taxation guarantee is in the Council decision, so it may be legally-binding unless the ECJ rules it violates the Treaties in which case it would be annulled. Tbh, my reasons for voting no largely revolve around the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which I believe will increase ECJ interference in our affairs.
    So why do you mention the legal status of the guarantees, is it merely, as I suspect, to muddy the waters, and sow fear and uncertainty?

    Never did get an answer to that last one, naturally...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭bogs


    I totally dislike the way EU has gone and for me its a definate NO.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    bogs wrote: »
    I totally dislike the way EU has gone and for me its a definate NO.
    What don't you like?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The EU commision document says 23 "existing legal bases moving from unanimity to qualified majority voting" plus 27 "new legal bases requiring qualified majority voting".

    Any reason to take scofflaw seriously on this matter?

    Possibly because I am happy to take new information on board, and perhaps because I prefer to do my own research rather than arguing from authority. My first problem with that list is that the numbering, which claims to refer to the post-Lisbon article numbers, clearly doesn't, which makes it rather difficult to cross-check the information. Article 15 TEU, for example, contains no reference to initiatives by the High Representative. I'd also have to point out that it claims the rules on the EDA as representing a move from unanimity to QMV - but the EDA is introduced in the Treaties for the first time in Lisbon, and as far as I can see does not require unanimity anywhere in its own statutes except on its budget. The movement to QMV referred to as Article 61G is already provided for in Nice by passerelles, as are several others.

    I suspect the work of a stagiare, myself.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    Oh wait...

    we've had this conversation before...













    Never did get an answer to that last one, naturally...
    Meaning you didn't like the answer the first time. Like the Government. You are made for each other in that respect.

    I always answer questions asked of me on this forum pertinant to this Treaty and my reasons for voting no to it. It is not an "either or" scenario. The yes camp like to pigeon-hole no voters as being concerned with wedge issues, and therefore you try to make out what I'm opposed to is the guarantees. It's true I am not satisfied with them, but my original reasons for voting no haven't gone away, and therefore I am voting no anyhow. My reasons for voting no are not some kind of moving target. They are consistent. I will not vote for the Charter fullstop.
    Scofflaw wrote:
    And a law abiding the same resolution was put in to replace it before those 3 months were up.
    Would an international agreement not enshrined in a UN Security Council be treated with as much respect as the ECJ showed to the UN Resolution? Given that the ECJ was equivocal about the former, that should concern us. I'm not comfortable with the ECJ presuming to review UN resolutions or international agreements. It impinges on the sovereignty of member atates, and constitutes another example of "competence-creep" on the ECJ's part for which the court has become notorious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    I already voted. I will not be forced into doing do again.. to me, it's just another proof that democracy is useless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Meaning you didn't like the answer the first time. Like the Government. You are made for each other in that respect.

    I always answer questions asked of me on this forum pertinant to this Treaty and my reasons for voting no to it. It is not an "either or" scenario. The yes camp like to pigeon-hole no voters as being concerned with wedge issues, and therefore you try to make out what I'm opposed to is the guarantees. It's true I am not satisfied with them, but my original reasons for voting no haven't gone away, and therefore I am voting no anyhow. My reasons for voting no are not some kind of moving target. They are consistent. I will not vote for the Charter fullstop.Would an international agreement not enshrined in a UN Security Council be treated with as much respect as the ECJ showed to the UN Resolution? Given that the ECJ was equivocal about the former, that should concern us. I'm not comfortable with the ECJ presuming to review UN resolutions or international agreements. It impinges on the sovereignty of member atates, and constitutes another example of "competence-creep" on the ECJ's part for which the court has become notorious.

    As a matter of interest, can you give a recent example of 'competence creep' on the ECJ's part? I'm aware it's received wisdom on the part of No proponents, but the examples given by people like Ronan Mullen aren't in fact competence creep at all.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    I already voted. I will not be forced into doing do again.. to me, it's just another proof that democracy is useless.
    If you don't vote, and it goes through, you're just rewarding their bad behaviour so it will happen again. It's important to make a stand.
    Scofflaw wrote:
    As a matter of interest, can you give a recent example of 'competence creep' on the ECJ's part? I'm aware it's received wisdom on the part of No proponents, but the examples given by people like Ronan Mullen aren't in fact competence creep at all.
    Former German President Roman Herzog goes into this in some detail, especially with respect to the Mangold Judgement, where a German law intended to help older workers find jobs was struck down with immediate effect as null and void, and on the basis of imagined "constutitonal traditions" supposedly common to member states (which actually only existed in 2 member states):
    Judicial decision-making in Europe is in deep trouble. The reason is to be found in the European Court of Justice (ECJ), whose justifications for depriving member states of their very own fundamental competences and interfering heavily in their legal systems are becoming increasingly astonishing. In so doing, it has squandered a great deal of the trust it used to enjoy.

    Hence, it is only logical that the German Federal Constitutional Court recently decided to intervene. Very soon it will have to render a judgement that will be of fundamental importance for the further development of European jurisdiction, since it concerns the question of whether the excessive legal practice of the ECJ should in future once again be subject to stricter controls by the German Federal Constitutional Court, or whether the Federal Constitutional Court should resign once and for all from its watchdog position.

    What triggered this decisive case was a lawsuit staged by two lawyers. In the course of the labour market reforms established under the red-green coalition (Social Democrats with the Alliance 90 and the Green Party), at the end of 2002, the age limit at which employees are entitled to enter into temporary employment contracts without restrictions had been temporarily reduced from 58 to 52 years. The aim was to increase the chances for older unemployed people to find a job. The high level of protection against unwarranted dismissal in Germany combined with the concern of many employers that the performance of older people might weaken, meant that people over fifty often had no real opportunity for reintegration into the labour market.

    In 2000, the European Union (EU) passed a non-discrimination directive which prohibited the unequal treatment of people in "employment and occupation" on account of age. Of course this EU directive also contains an explicit provision that member states may discriminate against people due to age if such practice serves to foster employment. The manner in which this provision is realised is largely left to the member states.

    However, two lawyers in Munich held the view that this reduction of the age limit constituted an infringement of the said EU directive, and so they brought the case to court in 2003. The ECJ judged as follows: The German labour market reform was in fact deemed incompatible with the EU's non-discrimination directive, since it could not be "proved" that the German reform provisions were "objectively required" for the stimulation of the employment of older employees. This so-called "Mangold Judgement" is disputable for various reasons.

    Firstly, both labour market policy and social policy are still core competences of the member states. However, this case clearly demonstrates to what extent EU regulation and EU jurisdiction nevertheless interfere in the governing of these core competences.

    For even though the EC Treaty allows for a European regulation of non-discrimination, the question of why the EU regulates age discrimination on the labour market at all is raised in all its seriousness. According to the principle of subsidiarity, the EU may take action only if it really has a better solution to a problem than the member states.

    According to law as it exists, a basic criterion for such a situation is that the problem must concern an issue of transboundary impact. However, unlike the question of nationality, age discrimination does not have any transboundary relevance and can therefore be easily dealt with by the member states themselves. Yet, the court blithely ignored it.

    At least the EU directive does declare unequal treatment on account of age as expressly admissible for the purpose of promoting employment in the member states, but even this did not concern the ECJ. Despite everything, it overthrew the German employment promotion measure.

    Secondly, EU directives do not apply to member states directly, but first have to be transposed by the national legislature, which may resolve on the form and methods of the relevant measure independently. Germany had to transpose the aforementioned non-discrimination directive by 2 December 2006. Therefore, there was no obligation to transpose it. Moreover, the lowering of the age limit was due to expire anyway by 31 December 2006, in other words a few days after the expiry of the enforcement deadline. This was also ignored by the ECJ.

    Thirdly, to justify its judgement, the ECJ resorted to a somewhat adventurous construction. The ECJ believed it had found a ban on age discrimination within the "constitutional traditions common to the Member States" and "various international treaties". So it was not actually the non-discrimination directive (as yet to be enforced) which caused the German reform provision to breach EU law, but a "general principle of community law".

    However, this "general principle of community law" was a fabrication. In only two of the then 25 member states – namely Finland and Portugal – is there any reference to a ban on age discrimination, and in not one international treaty is there any mention at all of there being such a ban, contrary to the terse allegation of the ECJ. Consequently, it is not difficult to see why the ECJ dispensed with any degree of specification or any proof of its allegation. To put it bluntly, with this construction which the ECJ more or less pulled out of a hat, they were acting not as part of the judicial power but as the legislature.

    Fourthly, in its judgement the ECJ ordered the German reform provision to remain "not applied" with immediate effect. In fact, it was declared null and void. This also constitutes a highly questionable paradigm shift. The EC Treaty stipulates that member states are not directly bound by EU directives. This means that it is not the EU directives but the national transposition laws that must first create rights and duties for citizens.

    The ECJ used to respect this, too: If the national law of a member state was not compatible with an EU directive, the ECJ confined itself to pointing out the inconsistency. Although the member state concerned then had to revise its law, the former version (incompatible with EU law) remained in effect until that was done. Hence, citizens could rely on the binding effect of their national laws. This has now changed: As a consequence of the ECJ judgement, all temporary employment contracts concluded during the German labour market reform were converted into regular employment contracts overnight – resulting in the subsequent material damage incurred by the affected companies.

    With these four dubieties, the "Mangold Judgement" provoked almost unanimous and massive criticism among legal experts.

    A change of scene: again in 2003, a company based near Hamburg entered into a temporary employment contract with a 53-year old employee under the German labour market reform. Shortly before his contract expired, the employee took legal action. He claimed that the reform was not compatible with EU law. The responsible labour court dismissed the case, as did the court of appeal. Thereupon, the complainant took his case to the German Federal Labour Court. Meanwhile, the Mangold Judgement had been reached. The German Federal Labour Court adopted the reasoning given therein and, despite the questionable nature of the judgement, denied the right to resubmit the judgement either to the ECJ in order to clarify it, or to the German Federal Constitutional Court, and further annulled the lower court judgements. Subsequently, the company filed a constitutional complaint against this decision. It asserted several infringements of the German Constitution.

    The German Federal Constitutional Court has been dealing with this constitutional complaint for quite a while. This alone should be taken by the ECJ as a warning. For in 1986, the court virtually delegated the assessment of whether European acts are compatible with fundamental rights to the ECJ ("Solange II Judgement"): It had assumed that on a European level the compliance of fundamental rights would be safeguarded through the ECJ to a similar extent, as in Germany. It only wanted to intervene if the protection of fundamental rights was being weakened in general and not just in single cases. How important that explicit reservation is will be shown when the Federal Constitutional Court passes judgement on the "Mangold Judgement", which, in many respects, has created a fundamentally changed legal situation.

    Irrespective of this, the "Mangold Judgement" also has to be viewed in light of the "Maastricht Judgement" by the German Federal Constitutional Court of 1993. There it is of vital importance that the institutions of the EU, including the ECJ, adhere to the limits of competences granted by the EC Treaty – namely, the EC Treaty version approved by the German national Parliament (Bundestag). Any action, and in particular any development of the law by judicial interpretation that exceeds such limits is not covered by the act of assent of the German Bundestag and therefore has to be deemed null and void in Germany.

    In the present case the ECJ acted as legislator. With reference to alleged international treaties and constitutional traditions of the member states, the ECJ invented EU law. Within the time limit for the transposition of an EU directive it ordered the inapplicability of an existing national regulation to citizens. It is obvious that there is an inadmissible extension of the EC Treaty, inherent in a "fulminating court order", so to speak.

    The "Mangold Judgement" of the ECJ is only one of many judgements significantly interfering with competences of the member states and thus provoked massive criticism by irritated experts. Here are only three recent examples:

    First example: In 2006 the ECJ adopted a statutory tobacco ad ban in the EU that applies in particular to local papers. The EU had banned tobacco ads in papers in the light of health care policy. However, since the EU does not have sufficient legislative competence in the field of health care, a way round it was thought out. According to the EU the single market would be impeded if there was no such EU-wide ban. For a national tobacco ad ban in one single member state would lead to foreign newspapers containing tobacco ads not being allowed to be sold in that state.

    The Federal Republic of Germany, deeming that argument artificial, asserted an infringement of competences by the EU and sued. However, the ECJ dismissed the case, reasoning that different tobacco ad rules in the member states actually impede the single market. The fact that local papers are hardly ever sold abroad and therefore an actual impediment does not exist was not considered by the ECJ. The vital German counter-argument that all tobacco ad bans hitherto existing in the member states expressly excluded foreign newspapers and thus could not impede the free sale of foreign newspapers containing tobacco ads was simply "turned upside down". The fact that national ad bans contained such exemptions demonstrated that national legislators also considered the issue as being a real problem.

    Second example: In 2005 and 2007, two judgements of the ECJ established an EU competence in the field of criminal law. With reference to what are in actual fact unmistakable provisions in the EC Treaty, almost all member states had firmly stated that such a competence did not exist. However, the ECJ argued quite the opposite.

    The ECJ's argumentation was as follows: "As a general rule, neither criminal law nor the rules of criminal procedure fall within the Community's competence. However, the last-mentioned finding does not prevent the Community legislature from taking measures which relate to the criminal law of the member states that it considers necessary" in order to enforce EU law, here in the field of environmental policy, and to oblige the Member States "to introduce such penalties." So that is what the ECJ has to say on the relationship between the European Union and the still so-called "Masters of the Treaties".

    Third example: In 2006 the ECJ granted the right of residence to a deported Tunisian, although the Euro-Mediterranean-Agreement between Tunisia and the EU Member States excludes this explicitly. Amongst other things, the agreement provides that Tunisians in the EU and EU residents in Tunisia may not be treated unequally in terms of working conditions for employees. Warned by an earlier judgement of the ECJ, the EU member states unmistakably defined in the agreement that the right of residence for foreigners is exclusively within the member states' competence and, in particular, that the non-discrimination principle may not apply to labour conditions in order to extend any residence permits. Thus discrimination suits should be excluded where labour permits would be played off against limited rights of residence.

    However, the ECJ overturned the unambiguous wording of the agreement and argued the opposite: according to the ECJ, the non-discrimination principle of the agreement also applied to issues of the right of residence. The arrogance the ECJ demonstrated in the process culminates in the reasoning of the judgement: "It would be quite unacceptable for the member states to deal with the principle of non-discrimination by using provisions of national law to limit its effectiveness." That option would "jeopardise the uniform application of that principle."

    What would happen in Germany if, for instance, the Federal Labour Court imposed such regulations upon the legislator? Yet, at the European level, such incapacitation of the "Masters of the Treaties" appears to go unresisted!

    The fact that this is not the only case where the ECJ turns the will of the legislator into the opposite is proved by the judgement on the EU Students Directive, which granted Belgian welfare aid to a French studying in Belgium, although the entire EU law expresses the non-existence of such claims, which is even excluded in the EU Students Directive itself: Pursuant to Article 1 of the directive, students may study abroad solely if they provide evidence of enough means of subsistence to secure that "he and his family have sufficient resources to avoid becoming a burden on the social assistance system of the host member state during their period of residence." The ECJ said: "On the other hand, there are no provisions in the directive that preclude those to whom it applies from receiving social security benefits."

    And that is what the ECJ has to say on the value of legal wording.

    In its Maastricht judgement, the Federal Constitutional Court refers to an interpretation of EU law "guided by the effet utile principle, i.e., the broadest possible interpretation of Community powers". So far so good. But the latest settled case-law of the ECJ reinforces the impression that the ECJ long since left such limitations behind them.

    The cases described show that the ECJ deliberately and systematically ignores fundamental principles of the Western interpretation of law, that its decisions are based on sloppy argumentation, that it ignores the will of the legislator, or even turns it into its opposite, and invents legal principles serving as grounds for later judgements. They show that the ECJ undermines the competences of the member states even in the core fields of national powers.

    The conclusion one comes to is clear: The ECJ is not suitable as a subsidiarity controller in the last instance and a protector of the member states' interests. This is not surprising, as first of all, according to Articles 1 and 5 of the EU Treaty, the ECJ is obliged to participate in the "process of creating an ever closer union". Secondly, an EU-biased jurisdiction of the ECJ leads to the situation that the areas where the ECJ may judge are also growing, thereby displacing member states' courts, which means that the ECJ is constantly gaining influence. This general tendency is not modified by the occasional deliberately cautious ECJ judgements passed in order to serve as a sedative to the growing resentment of the member states. Against this background and in light of the achieved integration level in the EU, it is absolutely vital that an ECJ independent court for competence issues be set up.

    The ECJ was created with the aim of providing a arbitrator to mediate in the interests of the EU and those of the member states. In assigning the ECJ with comprehensive rights of decision-making, the assumption was that they could be trusted to take on this responsibility in an unbiased way and in compliance with the rules of the judiciary. If the ECJ abuses this confidence, it need not be surprised when it breaks down.


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