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Climate Camp 15th-23rd August

  • 05-08-2009 05:50PM
    #1
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭


    Hi all forum posters

    I am an organiser of the upcoming event Climate Camp, taking place this month in Shannonbridge, Co. Offaly. Come along if even for just a day - no entry fee!

    It consists of 9 days of workshops, sustainable living, direct action and movement building for climate justice....because nature doesn't do bailouts!

    The Climate Camp is a place where anyone who cares about climate change or social justice can meet, live, learn and take direct action together. It's happening this August 15th-23rd, in Co. Offaly, Ireland.

    The camp will be 9 days of great food, live music, workshops and action for a just, sustainable future.

    You can come for as long as you want – it’s up to you.

    What can I do there?

    Build: Learn how to make a solar shower, erect a marquee, or cook for two hundred people. We aim to make the camp a model of sustainable living, and we need you to help us do it.

    Meet: Concerned about climate change? Feel like our current economic system is fuelling more than one crisis? You’re not alone – join Irish people from all walks of life to share ideas, make friends and start taking collective action.

    Share and Learn    : Discover alternatives. Get up-to-speed with the science and economics. Learn the skills you need - from how to build a yurt and grow your own veg, to how to take direct action and talk to the media. With over 70 workshops to choose from there'll be several to suit your interests.

    Take Action: Find like-minded people. Get trained-up and share your skills. Make plans. Whether you want to make a silly costume, stop a train full of peat or coal, or encourage strikes in the fossil fuel industries there will be people here to join you. Join our day of action against the peat industry on August 22nd. And get prepared to join people taking direct action all over the world, including global days of action for climate justice in December 2009.

    The climate camp is being organised by volunteers and anyone can get involved.

    We have four aims:
    To create a space for education
    To take direct action against the root causes of climate change
    To create a model of sustainable living
    To build a movement for climate and social justice


    To sign up for updates or get involved visit www.climatecamp.ie


«1

Comments

  • #2
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Húrin wrote: »
    ...stop a train full of peat or coal, or encourage strikes in the fossil fuel industries...
    I'm sorry, what? You wouldn't be advocating criminal activity, would you?


  • #3
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Is this www.climatecamp.ie involved with Shell to Sea in any way?


  • #4
    Shiny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭Shiny


    mikom wrote: »
    Is this www.climatecamp.ie involved with Shell to Sea in any way?

    Yeah I got a similar impression, not that it was involved with Shell to Sea,
    that it was for Activists Only.


  • #5
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    mikom wrote: »
    Is this www.climatecamp.ie involved with Shell to Sea in any way?

    I'll take that as a yes so.


  • #6
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I'm sorry, what? You wouldn't be advocating criminal activity, would you?
    OP, if you're not going to discuss this 'camp', then I'll interpret this thread as nothing more than an advert and close/delete it.


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  • #7
    psytek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭psytek


    I think we should discuss the camp instead of deleting the post. What you guys mean "it's just for activists"? Who are the others?? Arent we all active when we want to get together for any kind of eco-social activity?
    Isnt the situation of shell to sea part of the ecological disarster we are facing in Ireland and around the world? And beside the ecological one, what about the social disaster?


  • #8
    Shiny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭Shiny


    psytek wrote: »
    I think we should discuss the camp instead of deleting the post. What you guys mean "it's just for activists"? Who are the others?? Arent we all active when we want to get together for any kind of eco-social activity?
    Isnt the situation of shell to sea part of the ecological disarster we are facing in Ireland and around the world? And beside the ecological one, what about the social disaster?

    I went to their website and looked at the titles of all the workshops that
    they are having over the several days. I went there expecting stuff about
    renewable energy and didn't see what I expected tbh.

    There are a couple of things about domestic turbines but things such as
    "The State's response to social activism",
    "The experience of the Tara campaign",
    "Feminism and the environmental movements" sent me packing.

    I assume now you know what I mean?


  • #9
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Shiny wrote: »
    I went to their website and looked at the titles of all the workshops that
    they are having over the several days. I went there expecting stuff about
    renewable energy and didn't see what I expected tbh.
    I particularly liked this one:

    "Racism and climate change"

    I'm tempted to go along just to see how they'll connect those two.


  • #10
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I particularly liked this one:

    "Racism and climate change"

    I'm tempted to go along just to see how they'll connect those two.

    Delete the thread!

    "Learn how to make a solar shower"

    I particularly didn't like this one. I'm a plumber! These solar plastic bag showers in the garden require no plumbing. Put plumbers out of business. Will put ESB and oil companies out of business too.

    Shut these *astards down before they cause any more damage to the economy :)


  • #11
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Sorry DJP I don't review the Green issues forum every day. I'll deal with questions in order.

    We advocate taking non-violent direct action against the causes of climate change. I find it funny how many of the people who vilify climate activists who do this, tend to laud Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.

    As far as I know however, no particular actions of this kind are planned.


    @mikom : Climate Camp is by no means an extension of Shell to Sea. However there is some overlap in terms of the people involved. Climate Camp will express solidarity with communities negatively affected by fossil fuel extraction, both in developing countries and Mayo.


    @Shiny: This camp is not for activists only. We are trying to make it as accessible as possible and emphasise that we are all learning here. There are many people who are not activists who would like to become more active, and those people in particular will find much to engage them at the camp.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    I particularly liked this one:

    "Racism and climate change"

    I'm tempted to go along just to see how they'll connect those two.

    I don't know exactly what that one will consist of. The connection seems obvious to me however. The main effect of climate change for Ireland, I expect, will be demand for asylum from people whose native lands can no longer support them due to adverse climate change. Immigration, especially when the economy isn't great, tends to cause racism, and that is a problem.

    I would be delighted to see you there for this workshop or any of the others!


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  • #12
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    probe wrote: »
    Delete the thread!

    "Learn how to make a solar shower"

    I particularly didn't like this one. I'm a plumber! These solar plastic bag showers in the garden require no plumbing. Put plumbers out of business.

    Sorry probe, we're not here to subsidise your business. There's nothing wrong with people learning how to make things cheaply for themselves.

    Are there not tasks you would like to do, that you might feel the need to hire an expert to do?
    Will put ESB and oil companies out of business too.

    Shut these *astards down before they cause any more damage to the economy :)
    If you're looking for groups which are likely to bring down the economy I would look towards the governments and multinationals whose position on peak oil is pretty much one of complete denial. Ignoring geological reality will not help the economy a few years down the line. Ordinary communities learning to make and do things that will aid their economic survival stands a rather better chance than looking to the system that has been crashing down around us for a year.


  • #13
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Húrin wrote: »
    Sorry probe, we're not here to subsidise your business. There's nothing wrong with people learning how to make things cheaply for themselves.

    Didn't you see the big smiley after the post?

    While I was ostensibly joking (to tell the truth I'm not really a plumber, and couldn't give a jot about the loss of revenue from solar anything to ESB etc) my serious point between the lines is that many people on boards want to censor what others say - for whatever reason.

    In my opinion censorship is unacceptable, unless people are posting libelous content or spam which would be a legal issue for the operating entity behind boards or in the case of spam totally boring for everyone. I'm not specifically targeting the "Green Issues" forum - censorship is a lot more prevalent in some other fora.

    Your posting seemed to me to be 100% relevant "Green Issues" type posting that one couldn't resist it! :)


  • #14
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    PS: I actually came across a solar shower in a Nature et Découvertes shop today. 20 l water storage capacity. EUR 9.90. Buy online or in one of their stores. They have some good green / out of doors / healthy interesting merchandise. Worth a visit.

    http://www.natureetdecouvertes.com/pages/gener/ficheProduit_view.asp?refart=52005700&oid=3&uid=7&suid=480&contextefm=../gener/accueil.asp?dummy=#

    The shops are only in France so far unfortunately.

    Branch locator: http://www.natureetdecouvertes.com/pages/Corporate/MAGASINS/accueil.asp

    www.natureetdecouvertes.com


  • #15
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    probe wrote: »
    Your posting seemed to me to be 100% relevant "Green Issues" type posting that one couldn't resist it! :)

    No I didn't detect the humour in your post!

    I might double post this on the politics forum for a more mainstream response - given that the Climate Camp is very much a political topic.


  • #16
    D.U.M.B
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 55 ✭✭D.U.M.B


    I think this camp could be a blast. I'm going to make an effort to make an appearance


  • #17
    DIRTY69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 289 ✭✭DIRTY69


    thanks for the info. Can't make the meetup but I will join the local group if i can though.


  • #18
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Húrin wrote: »
    We advocate taking non-violent direct action against the causes of climate change.
    But you speak of stopping trains? What does that involve exactly?
    Húrin wrote: »
    Climate Camp is by no means an extension of Shell to Sea. However there is some overlap in terms of the people involved. Climate Camp will express solidarity with communities negatively affected by fossil fuel extraction, both in developing countries and Mayo.
    How will this “expression of solidarity” manifest itself?
    Húrin wrote: »
    The main effect of climate change for Ireland, I expect, will be demand for asylum from people whose native lands can no longer support them due to adverse climate change.
    How many climate change-related asylum applications do you expect to be made in Ireland?


  • #19
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    probe wrote: »
    … my serious point between the lines is that many people on boards want to censor what others say - for whatever reason.

    In my opinion censorship is unacceptable, unless people are posting libelous content or spam which would be a legal issue for the operating entity behind boards or in the case of spam totally boring for everyone. I'm not specifically targeting the "Green Issues" forum - censorship is a lot more prevalent in some other fora.
    I presume by “censorship” you are referring to moderation? Discussion of which, in-thread, contravenes the forum charter.


  • #20
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    But you speak of stopping trains? What does that involve exactly?
    Why the "but"? Stopping a peat train is a classic example of a non-violent action. I don't know the nuts and bolts of it because I personally am too busy organising the literal nuts and bolts of the camp infrastructure to personally plan an action like this.
    How will this “expression of solidarity” manifest itself?
    In short, talking about it. Encouraging people to get involved in campaigns such as Shell to Sea.
    How many climate change-related asylum applications do you expect to be made in Ireland?
    The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has suggested 150 million climate refugees will exist by 2050.

    so probably a lot.

    You seem to be genuinely surprised to hear that people will up sticks and move if their homelands become uninhabitable.

    more links on the topic:
    http://www.globalwarmingisreal.com/blog/2009/06/15/climate-refugees-mapping-the-effects-of-climate-change-on-human-migration-and-displacement/

    http://en.cop15.dk/news/view+news?newsid=1395

    http://www.iied.org/climate-change/key-issues/community-based-adaptation/climate-refugees-future


  • #21
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Húrin wrote: »
    Why the "but"? Stopping a peat train is a classic example of a non-violent action.
    Illegal activity does not have to be violent. Is stopping a train legal? I think not.
    Húrin wrote: »
    Encouraging people to get involved in campaigns such as Shell to Sea...
    …and all that it entails? Will people be encouraged to “get involved” in Shell to Sea’s illegal activities?

    At the risk of veering off-topic, I’ll leave the discussion of ‘climate refugees’ for another thread.


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  • #22
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Illegal activity does not have to be violent. Is stopping a train legal? I think not.

    I don't deny that it's illegal - I just resent your implication that it's violent. Martin Luther King said that we have a moral obligation to obey just laws, and a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws. I think he was right.
    …and all that it entails? Will people be encouraged to “get involved” in Shell to Sea’s illegal activities?
    If they want to do that if they visit Rossport they can. Better to support Shell to Sea's non-violent illegal activities than to support Shell's violent illegal activities.
    At the risk of veering off-topic, I’ll leave the discussion of ‘climate refugees’ for another thread.

    Well now you know how to connect climate change to racism. It is very much on topic if you wish to discuss it further.


  • #23
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I agree with you Hurin: peaceful civil disobedience is an important civil right in this country.

    As Martin Luther said: One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.


  • #24
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Húrin wrote: »
    I don't deny that it's illegal - I just resent your implication that it's violent.
    I never mentioned violence – I used the words ‘criminal’ and ‘illegal’.
    Húrin wrote: »
    Martin Luther King said that we have a moral obligation to obey just laws, and a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws. I think he was right.
    So the transportation of peat or coal by rail is unjust? How so?
    Húrin wrote: »
    If they want to do that if they visit Rossport they can. Better to support Shell to Sea's non-violent illegal activities than to support Shell's violent illegal activities.
    I would say that the fact that Shell to Sea engages in illegal activities makes them no better than any organisation or corporation who engages in same. If people want to protest over the Corrib gas project, that’s fine, but I would suggest they steer well clear of Shell to Sea and their ilk – there is such a thing as guilt by association.
    Húrin wrote: »
    Well now you know how to connect climate change to racism.
    With a little effort and imagination you can connect pretty much any issues you like, I just don’t think it’s particularly constructive.
    Húrin wrote: »
    It is very much on topic if you wish to discuss it further.
    The issue of “climate refugees” is a complex one and I suggest that it be discussed in its own thread. In fact, there is a thread on the subject here.


  • #25
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So the transportation of peat or coal by rail is unjust? How so?
    The burning of these fuels is unjust because our economy benefits from their energy, while the economies of countries far poorer than ours have to pay the real price for the greenhouse gases emitted when we harness that energy.
    I would say that the fact that Shell to Sea engages in illegal activities makes them no better than any organisation or corporation who engages in same.
    You are implying here that all law breaking is morally equivalent - which I doubt that you would stick to if tested.

    I would agree with MLK's line rather than yours which is frankly ridiculous. The gulags were legal, don't you know?
    If people want to protest over the Corrib gas project, that’s fine, but I would suggest they steer well clear of Shell to Sea and their ilk – there is such a thing as guilt by association.
    Shell to Sea and their ilk is the majority of the local community. There is group being gentle about their protests, and unsurprisingly, Shell are ignoring them as they have always tried to ignored the communities in the Broadhaven Bay area.
    With a little effort and imagination you can connect pretty much any issues you like, I just don’t think it’s particularly constructive.
    You think it is not constructive to talk about how climate change will affect our lives?

    From what you are saying in this thread, I don't think you understand how serious and urgent climate change is.


  • #26
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    who is this ilk you speak of


  • #27
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Húrin wrote: »
    The burning of these fuels is unjust because our economy benefits from their energy, while the economies of countries far poorer than ours have to pay the real price for the greenhouse gases emitted when we harness that energy.
    So what’s the (realistic) alternative?
    Húrin wrote: »
    You are implying here that all law breaking is morally equivalent...
    No I’m not.
    Húrin wrote: »
    I would agree with MLK's line rather than yours which is frankly ridiculous.
    And I would say that equating Shell to Sea, or any other such organisation, to Martin Luther King is ridiculous and, quite frankly, an insult to the man.
    Húrin wrote: »
    Shell to Sea and their ilk is the majority of the local community.
    Got any evidence that suggests that the actions of Shell to Sea are supported by the bulk of the local community? Even if they are, does that confer them with some sort of legitimacy? If I have the support of my local community in committing a crime, does that make my actions morally just?
    Húrin wrote: »
    There is group being gentle about their protests, and unsurprisingly, Shell are ignoring them...
    Are their local TD’s ignoring them?


  • #28
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So what’s the (realistic) alternative?
    The issue of an alternative does not affect whether it is just or unjust. Alternatives certainly exist but they don't need to be listed here. Come see some at the climate camp, or read some of the other threads on this forum, or read some of the fine books on the matter.

    No I’m not.
    Yes, you are:
    I would say that the fact that Shell to Sea engages in illegal activities makes them no better than any organisation or corporation who engages in same.
    In this case you morally equate the violent activities of Shell with the non-violent activities of their opponents, on the flimsy grounds that both are illegal. Using the same logic, the youth who steals a bike is as bad as the guy who kills three people, on the grounds that they're both lawbreakers.
    And I would say that equating Shell to Sea, or any other such organisation, to Martin Luther King is ridiculous and, quite frankly, an insult to the man.
    Why is it an insult? I am explaining myself - why can't you do the same? Both are opponents of injustice. Both have similar views on the morality of disobeying unjust laws.
    Got any evidence that suggests that the actions of Shell to Sea are supported by the bulk of the local community?
    Shell to Sea began only after the Rossport Five were jailed. They had been resisting the extraction for five years before that, through every legal means. It is not a joke to say that that didn't work for them because Mayo County Council and the Gardai are working completely on the side of Shell's project.
    Even if they are, does that confer them with some sort of legitimacy? If I have the support of my local community in committing a crime, does that make my actions morally just?
    If you don't have the support of your local community in breaking the law (no need to abuse the term "crime" here), does that make your actions morally unjust?

    The fact that they have the support of the local people simply means that they have the support - and participation - of the local people. A lot of liars say that they do not have this support, and use that lie to try to undermine Shell to Sea. Who do you think the likes of Pat O’Donnell, Maura Harrington, Willie Corduff, Eoin O’Leithin and Neil McEleny are if not local people?

    I also think that local people should have a much more powerful say in what projects are allowed to happen in their area. Save for essential services - which a gas pipeline is not - I don't see why these things shouldn't be put to a vote.
    Are their local TD’s ignoring them?
    Yes. They are being ignored by the government, because it obviously favours Shell's project. Willie Corduff and the rest tried every legal means available to resist Shell's negative influence on their lives.

    It sounds like you have too much faith in how fair our national and local governments are to their people. Your entire position on everything seems to come down to thinking, "the government and big business will always do the right thing by everyone, through due process of law. If the law doesn't listen, try try again."

    btw you missed one of my questions to you:
    me wrote:
    You think it is not constructive to talk about how climate change will affect our lives?


  • #29
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Húrin wrote: »
    The issue of an alternative does not affect whether it is just or unjust.
    I’ll take that as tacit admission that, at present, we are (unfortunately) required to produce at least some of our energy by burning fossil fuels.

    Just to get back to the idea of disrupting fuel supplies; you say that this action is just as it in the interests of those in “poorer countries”. Now, I’m wondering, how likely do you think it is that people in these “poorer countries” are going to support your actions? I’d be particularly interested in their response if you proposed to blockade a fossil fuel-fired power plant in their country – do you think they’d be supportive of your actions? One of the reasons I ask is that my father-in-law is from a so-called “poorer country” and whenever I visit, one of the most common topics of conversation is the less-than-reliable power supply. Somehow I doubt that too many of these “poor people” would be terribly impressed if the power supply was downgraded from ‘intermittent’ to ‘non-existent’. In fact, I seem to recall riots taking place in Bangladesh (another “poorer country”) a few years ago, as people had reached their wits’ end with the frequent disruptions to electricity supplies.
    Húrin wrote: »
    In this case you morally equate the violent activities of Shell with the non-violent activities of their opponents, on the flimsy grounds that both are illegal. Using the same logic, the youth who steals a bike is as bad as the guy who kills three people, on the grounds that they're both lawbreakers.
    Yeah, you got me, that’s exactly what I’m saying; Shell to Sea, ETA, Al-Qaeda... sure they’re all the one, aren’t they?
    Húrin wrote: »
    Why is it an insult? I am explaining myself - why can't you do the same? Both are opponents of injustice. Both have similar views on the morality of disobeying unjust laws.
    Who decides which laws are unjust?
    Húrin wrote: »
    I also think that local people should have a much more powerful say in what projects are allowed to happen in their area. Save for essential services - which a gas pipeline is not - I don't see why these things shouldn't be put to a vote.
    I think a very large number of people in this country would strongly disagree with your regarding of this pipeline as being non-essential. And what do you mean by a vote? Did Shell not sign a legal contract with the Irish government? If the locals have an issue with an aspect of this agreement, then they should be lobbying their local TD’s to challenge this contract on their behalf, because as far as I am aware, there is room for renegotiation under certain conditions (the particulars of which escape me at present).
    Húrin wrote: »
    Yes. They are being ignored by the government...
    Evidence?
    Húrin wrote: »
    It sounds like you have too much faith in how fair our national and local governments are to their people.
    It’s not faith, it’s common sense. The top priority of every TD in this country is to keep their constituents happy so that they retain their seat at the next general election. In my experience, TD’s are only too happy to air the grievances of their constituents in the Dáil, especially if they are in opposition.
    H&#250 wrote: »
    You think it is not constructive to talk about how climate change will affect our lives?
    I didn’t miss it – there’s only so much that can be covered in one thread. I’m designating this thread as a discussion on “environmental activism”. You are obviously free to discuss the impacts of climate change elsewhere on this forum.


  • #30
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    a jury in this country has already decided that committing a non-violent crime for greater good is justified, eg shannon pitstop ploughshares, other ploughares had been to court proved what was doing was wrong and the gov just ignored it, so they acted, there are many other examples. the gov pays no attention to law, politicians and gardai are endemically corrupt,and od what industry tells them to, discussion over djbarry.

    just trying to read about shannonbridge why the hell did they decided to build a _new_ peat power plant in 2004???

    http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/west_offaly.pdf

    im sure some campaigning against it at the time...? alot i guess, groups like fie,taisce and local green groups,"lobbying", why no direct protests at the time, direct actionist distracted by the war/shannon....

    http://www.climatecamp.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76:outreach&catid=48:peat&Itemid=64

    interesting point about the rival of the green movements post greens in gov...


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  • #31
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    a jury in this country has already decided that committing a non-violent crime for greater good is justified, eg shannon pitstop ploughshares
    Ok. So does that justify any future criminal action undertaken by somebody who believes that what they are doing is “for the greater good”? Of course it doesn’t.
    lostexpectation wrote: »
    the gov pays no attention to law, politicians and gardai are endemically corrupt…
    That’s a pretty serious, sweeping allegation you’re making there – how about we stick to specifics? It’s all too easy to justify a position in an argument such as this by reverting to the old “ah sure, aren’t they all a shower of corrupt feckers?”


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