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Social Welfare State

245

Comments

  • #32
    podge3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭podge3


    Húrin wrote: »
    The working class and the welfare class - the OP's target - are not the same people.
    The is something that has puzzled me for a long time.

    Why are areas made up of mostly spongers referred to as "working class estates" and areas where people actually work are called "middle class" estates.

    In my town, the residents of "working class" estates have never worked in their lives - unless you can call impregnating you spouse/partner with a future sponger work.


  • #33
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    podge3 wrote: »
    The is something that has puzzled me for a long time.

    Why are areas made up of mostly spongers referred to as "working class estates" and areas where people actually work are called "middle class" estates.

    In my town, the residents of "working class" estates have never worked in their lives - unless you can call impregnating you spouse/partner with a future sponger work.

    Careful now... You'll have the politically correct police after ya!


  • #34
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Kernel wrote: »
    There's an interesting discussion taking place in the Humanities forum about people having the right to reproduce. Of course, I believe that the State should not yet impose any restrictions on people's right to have children, however, I also believe that our current system of Social Welfare is creating an artificial situation in which the underclasses are thriving at the expense of the productive members of the State.

    Is there actually any evidence that people who live on social welfare have larger families that those who don't?

    It certainly does seem to be the case, but I suspect you may be overstating it.


  • #35
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    dvpower wrote: »
    Is there actually any evidence that people who live on social welfare have larger families that those who don't?

    It certainly does seem to be the case, but I suspect you may be overstating it.
    ah come on, open your eyes FFS! Head to any area largely populated by people in receipt of long term SW and you will see plenty of evidence.


  • #36
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    ah come on, open your eyes FFS! Head to any area largely populated by people in receipt of long term SW and you will see plenty of evidence.

    What are you on about?

    I'd just prefer to see actual evidence. I often find that its better than anecdote.

    It's not like these statistics don't exist. They do. If we could see the extent of the problem, then we could have a debate based on reality, not on prejudice.


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  • #37
    deadhead13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    podge3 wrote: »
    The is something that has puzzled me for a long time.

    Why are areas made up of mostly spongers referred to as "working class estates" and areas where people actually work are called "middle class" estates.

    In my town, the residents of "working class" estates have never worked in their lives - unless you can call impregnating you spouse/partner with a future sponger work.

    There are approximately 127,000 local authority, voluntary and co-operative houses in Ireland. There are 25,000 people who have been on the live register for 3 years are more. There are of course, estates which could be considered to be blackspots of long term unemployment. However to class all local authority or "working class" estates as "areas made up of mostly spongers" would clearly be incorrect.


  • #38
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    True but I dont see many people on welfare living in blackrock or kiliney(mis spell) so imo it applies.

    I actually know plenty of young middle-class students who have signed on the day they graduated from college. So yes there are welfare recipients, spongers even, living in upper class areas.


  • #39
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    podge3 wrote: »
    In my town, the residents of "working class" estates have never worked in their lives - unless you can call impregnating you spouse/partner with a future sponger work.

    I would have agreed with you till this bit, Its what adds to the stigma these areas have to face and as you show again, you clearly dont live there so you are actually bording on being the type of person a working class area dispises, that is one that judges them before they know them


  • #40
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    dvpower wrote: »
    Is there actually any evidence that people who live on social welfare have larger families that those who don't?

    It certainly does seem to be the case, but I suspect you may be overstating it.

    Its true they do but if all these contributors actually sat up and listened in population 101 class it has nothing go to do with the fact they are on social welfare. In fact it can be proven if you make it easier for people to earn money they have less kids cause greed drives them to earn more! But strangly taking money away actually causes an increase in population so by both logics cutting welfare will do nothing....


  • #41
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Húrin wrote: »
    I actually know plenty of young middle-class students who have signed on the day they graduated from college. So yes there are welfare recipients, spongers even, living in upper class areas.

    Whats that got to do with the working class and the welfare class? Surly if they are middle class and on welfare they are not middle class! I think you are confusing yourself cause you are def confusing me :D


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  • #42
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    I think this whole classification of "working-class" and "middle-class" is just a way to skirt the issue. Less talk about the label and more talk about that being labeled tbh.


  • #43
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Its true they do but if all these contributors actually sat up and listened in population 101 class it has nothing go to do with the fact they are on social welfare. In fact it can be proven if you make it easier for people to earn money they have less kids cause greed drives them to earn more! But strangly taking money away actually causes an increase in population so by both logics cutting welfare will do nothing....

    Isn't that contradictory?


  • #44
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    turgon wrote: »
    I think this whole classification of "working-class" and "middle-class" is just a way to skirt the issue. Less talk about the label and more talk about that being labeled tbh.

    i would just avoid classes altogether labeling included
    dvpower wrote: »
    Isn't that contradictory?

    Cen faith?


  • #45
    Automan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 327 ✭✭Automan


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Its true they do but if all these contributors actually sat up and listened in population 101 class it has nothing go to do with the fact they are on social welfare. In fact it can be proven if you make it easier for people to earn money they have less kids cause greed drives them to earn more! But strangly taking money away actually causes an increase in population so by both logics cutting welfare will do nothing....


    Your having a laugh right??? It never dawned on you that a couple working could not afford to have more than one child when there paying around 1000 euros per month on creche fees, how many working couples do you know that could afford 2000 euros per month creche fees for two children under 4?

    For those on social who dont want to work dont have this problem as they can stay at home and look after there kids, to some of these the more kids they have the more money,the bigger the house they will receive from the state.


  • #46
    podge3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭podge3


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    I would have agreed with you till this bit, Its what adds to the stigma these areas have to face and as you show again, you clearly dont live there so you are actually bording on being the type of person a working class area dispises, that is one that judges them before they know them
    You are quite correct that I don't live in a "working" class area.

    However I do live in a small provincial town where everybody knows everybody else and where they live. While I don't know the circumstances of every single household, I am reasonably familiar with with who lives in "working" class areas and sadly most of them are not "working" or have never worked.

    Of course there are some families who live in these areas that do actually work, although they would probably be better off on the dole.

    Anyway, back on topic (whatever that was :D).


  • #47
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    This toipc can never be expected to result in a coming together of views and oipinions,but hopefully it gives proponents of both "sides" an opportunity to listen to a different opinion.

    What I took from Kernel`s OP was a sense of bewilderment,abandonment and frustration as the developing recession threatens to sweep away an entire generation of people with a "Work Ethic" and the few children they bred.

    It`s a somewhat sobering point that both the UK and ourselves have managed to Socially Engineer our respective societies into this situation with little or no actual understanding of the knock-on effects of it.

    I can appreciate frankiestyle`s remarks re the off-licence trade.
    Some posters have questioned his ability to recognize the "Welfare" trade as they presumably do not (as yet) have a voucher for Alcohol.

    However,in my line of work It`s somewhat easier to notice how the off-trade works as I get the groups presenting for Free-Travel in order to reach the Off-Licence of choice.

    Invariably the holders of the Free-Travel pass posess a "Pass Holder Only" document but will usually attempt to take a companion with them.
    When I`m agile enough to spot them I will request a fare for the companion,usually something which will get a negatively toned response.

    If the system is prepared to pay for the companion then I`ll administer that too,but as it is I`m paid to do the job and I`ll do my best to adhere to it.

    What is beyond contradiction is the volume of alcohol being trade by these people.
    There is a serious direct transference between the Dept of Social and Family Affairs accounts and the Alcohol Trade in Ireland.

    Is this good...or bad....You tell me ?

    The only aspect of this entire thread which appears to have gone over most posters heads is the absolute unsustainability of the current DSFA system.....quite simply the country does not have anything approaching the level of monetary resources to maintain even 50% of the current schemes.
    Our esteemed leader,Mr Cowen,is on record as implying a general drop of 50% in living standards in the Republic.
    The question for us is whether EVERYBODY is prepared to accept such a reduction....or is it merely those imprisoned within the PAYE/PRSI gaol ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kernel wrote: »
    In it's simplest form it's a numbers game, and the decent honest hard working people are having less children later in life, whereas the underclasses are having more children earlier, and expecting the State to pay for this. In short, they're out-breeding us, and if such a trend continues the problem will increase exponentially in the future.

    What do you all think?
    In todays star,theres a family of 8-husband and wife with 6 children.
    Neither have worked since 2005 and the state is paying out €1000 a week in benefits to them.
    I'll bet theres 100's of cases like that.
    Yes thats right the state is paying them nearly €50k a year in dole and rent/childrens allowance...and that doesn't include any other freebies that they may have like medical cards etc

    No wonder the country is bollixed :mad::mad:

    Why work?


  • #49
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Deleted User wrote: »
    In todays star,theres a family of 8-husband and wife with 6 children.
    Neither have worked since 2005 and the state is paying out €1000 a week in benefits to them.
    I'll bet theres 100's of cases like that.
    Yes thats right the state is paying them nearly €50k a year in dole and rent/childrens allowance...and that doesn't include any other freebies that they may have like medical cards etc

    No wonder the country is bollixed :mad::mad:

    Why work?

    is there an online link i wonder


  • #50
    DavidH82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭DavidH82


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    I don't think these are the reasons! I think its more because a lucrative lifestyle can be had off the current child benefit scheme.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/social-welfare-should-be-a-last-resort--not-a-career-choice-for-scroungers-1853830.html

    I wonder why the Harte family would have such a sizeable family. As Joey said, this may be in the minority, but these are the real-life stories reported to us. When we aren't on the ground, what else are we to believe...
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    is there an online link i wonder

    See above, from page 1 of this thread.


  • #51
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DavidH82 wrote: »
    See above, from page 1 of this thread.

    i taught it was a different family, okie dokie so


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  • #52
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    lookit whos in newspapers again today

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/welfare-scrounge-family-fumes-over-benefits-story-1855273.html

    Danielle_I_380024t.jpg


  • #53
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Da family scummer..... As if we don't have enough bad press down here as it is!


  • #54
    JonathanAnon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭JonathanAnon


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/welfare-scrounge-family-fumes-over-benefits-story-1855273.html

    thanks for posting the link. These people are the scum of the earth.

    Nothing will change in this country because you have too many left wing groups willing to stand up for useless wasters like these people. To think that the same state we live in that provides these wasters with all of their luxuries, also puts hardworking people in jail for not being able to pay off bank loans (having lost their jobs). it's just wrong.

    Nothing good is ever achieved by
    a) rewarding a man for not working
    b) rewarding a family for having more kids (as our housing system does).

    To get the dole, everybody should have to provide some service to the state , like sweeping the street, picking up litter, licking stamps, or just bring something productive to the state for their money. It will then be their own choice whether to stay in that "job" or get a proper job.

    Any benefits for children should be in the form of vouchers for food, clothes, nappys whatever. The state should run shops to house these products (i.e. so they can get the best value for the taxpayer). None of this benefit should be cash, and how it is given in cash just baffles me.


  • #55
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    another thread about them here in AH

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055645157


  • #56
    Moonbeam
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,021 Mod ✭✭✭✭Moonbeam


    I think the issue is a family on min wage and a family on the dole have a very similar income so the working person is not being rewarded for working.


  • #57
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Moonbeam wrote: »
    I think the issue is a family on min wage and a family on the dole have a very similar income so the working person is not being rewarded for working.

    The working man mentioned at the bottom of this article makes 32K a year

    thats quite a bit more than minimum wage and most would say is more or less average for Ireland

    why does a family with a pile of kids and unemployed parents are better of than a family with employed parent and a pile of kids?

    somehow somewhere this socialist utopia we have here went seriously overboard

    and why in gods name do these families have so many kids? why is it states responsibility to care for kids not the parents :(

    sigh we as a nation ****ed up big time


  • #58
    Bandit12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Bandit12


    Unfortunatly this non working family are only the tip of the iceberg. Plenty of families round my way where the father (or both parents) have lost their jobs and have gone on welfare to find it a goldmine. One welfare couple and their 4 kids have only this past week returned from a family trip (two weeks) to Orlando Florida where they stayed in Villa with it's own pool. The Father has told me that he has never had it so good and get's time to spend with his kids that he never thought he'd see during his working years. During this conversation he told me his wife was pregnent with their 5th child.:rolleyes: Meanwhile i'm scraping together a few quid for a family holiday to lanzarote in September which is near enough impossible due to my hours been cut. Makes you wonder why bother live in Ireland when scummer famies like this can scronge of the state with impunity.:mad:


  • #59
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    charechters like theese have more representation at table talks than the average middle ireland mr and ms tax payers , as i said earlier on , an overly generous wellfare state is one of the main causes of social breakdown and dysfunctionality , it teaches people that they are every bit as entitled to all the finer things in life as their neighbour who works every hour to run his or her business , it robs people of the incentive to seek pesonal achievment and success through a solid work ethic , politicians gain most from an overly generous wellfare state , as someone said in another thread perhaps on another site , its not wonder fianna fail are so carefull to cut wellfare , thier is a direct line between the social wellfare office and the drinks industry and we all know which party the vitners association support , THINK ABOUT IT


  • #60
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Its true they do but if all these contributors actually sat up and listened in population 101 class it has nothing go to do with the fact they are on social welfare. In fact it can be proven if you make it easier for people to earn money they have less kids cause greed drives them to earn more! But strangly taking money away actually causes an increase in population so by both logics cutting welfare will do nothing....
    Automan wrote: »
    Your having a laugh right??? It never dawned on you that a couple working could not afford to have more than one child when there paying around 1000 euros per month on creche fees, how many working couples do you know that could afford 2000 euros per month creche fees for two children under 4?

    For those on social who dont want to work dont have this problem as they can stay at home and look after there kids, to some of these the more kids they have the more money,the bigger the house they will receive from the state.

    I am at a loss to discover your link to my original post. What you and the poster that thanked you is saying is that people choose to stay at home and have more kids and get a bigger house yes! How does that relate to this statement by me

    In fact it can be proven if you make it easier for people to earn money they have less kids cause greed drives them to earn more!

    I think your getting confused. I also think that you are adding to the stigma. You are implying in your comments that people who stay at home on the dole are doing it by choice! You have no proof of this. The state has no proof either because to receive welfare you have to be activly looking for work or not in a position to work.


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  • #61
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    The working man mentioned at the bottom of this article makes 32K a year

    thats quite a bit more than minimum wage and most would say is more or less average for Ireland

    why does a family with a pile of kids and unemployed parents are better of than a family with employed parent and a pile of kids?

    somehow somewhere this socialist utopia we have here went seriously overboard

    and why in gods name do these families have so many kids? why is it states responsibility to care for kids not the parents :(

    sigh we as a nation ****ed up big time

    Thats because the more noise you make in this country, the more you look for.. the more you'll get! Meanwhile the taxpayers get left to pick up the bill!


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