If Ireland does indeed get bullied into accepting the Lisbon treaty...

hatrickpatrick · 23-07-2009 02:47AM #1

...is there still any chance of it being shot down somewhere else? Are the Czechs and the Germans still hesitating, for example?

rigumagoo · 23-07-2009 03:28AM

Sure hope not

Martin 2 · 23-07-2009 08:20AM

A very provocative and misleading thread title, Ireland is not being bullied into passing Lisbon, some people may feel bullied but generally I think there's a lot of debate and discussion happening and most people will decide one way or another based on what's best for them, the country and the EU (not necessarily in that order).

As for it being shot down somewhere else, I think that's wishful thinking on your part... see http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0630/eulisbon.html

oscarBravo · 23-07-2009 08:41AM

Spare a thought for all the poor people bullied into voting "no" last time.

ei.sdraob · 23-07-2009 08:54AM

jebus quist (blasphemy bill ahem!) reading boards.ie now feels like reading a trashy British tabloid

now lets see the definition

Bullying is the act of intentionally causing harm to others, through verbal harassment, physical assault, or other more subtle methods of coercion such as manipulation

If anything I will claim I am being bullied by the No side, they are verbally assaulting me with lies for last year and causing me physical harm when same lies are repeated (same debunked trash) since another cluster of braincells dies

:cool:

marco_polo · 23-07-2009 10:21AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...is there still any chance of it being shot down somewhere else? Are the Czechs and the Germans still hesitating, for example?

Yes the Czech and Polish Presidents are indeed refusing to signing off on the treaty which has been ratified by their countries democratically elected parliaments, until we have voted again.

Presumably in the hope that we will do their dirty work for them.

hatrickpatrick · 23-07-2009 02:50PM

I'm sorry but I define being told "vote yes or you're screwed" as bullying to be honest - it's not true and is simply a form of coercive propaganda.

^Are you basically saying that if we pass it the last remaining objecting countries will also agree to pass it?

And McCreevey has already stated that he believes most countries would have rejected it if their electorate's had a say in whether it got passed or not. The illusion of democracy which you are trying to present is and always has been fundamentally flawed.

In Ireland for example, there was no party you could have voted for which would have both been big enough to form a majority in government and opposed the Lisbon treaty. Things like this are issues in which representative democracy just isn't enough. The people deserve a direct say in what's going on. Which is in fact one of my reasons for being generally apprehensive of handing over power to the EU. It gives the people even less control over their own country.

oscarBravo · 23-07-2009 02:59PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm sorry but I define being told "vote yes or you're screwed" as bullying to be honest - it's not true and is simply a form of coercive propaganda.

Who told you that?

BlitzKrieg · 23-07-2009 03:19PM

I'm sorry but I define being told "vote yes or you're screwed" as bullying to be honest - it's not true and is simply a form of coercive propaganda.

but how is that different to *vote no or you lose*?

ChocolateSauce · 23-07-2009 03:56PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm sorry but I define being told "vote yes or you're screwed" as bullying to be honest - it's not true and is simply a form of coercive propaganda.

I've heard, "vote yes or you'll hold Europe back". I like moving forward. I've also heard, "vote no or they'll take your rights, your freedom, your democracy, abort your babies, conscript your children, force us into wars and take control of your taxes", all of which are lies. That seems much more like bullying to me.

Scofflaw · 23-07-2009 05:12PM

marco_polo wrote: »

Yes the Czech and Polish Presidents are indeed refusing to signing off on the treaty which has been ratified by their countries democratically elected parliaments, until we have voted again.

Presumably in the hope that we will do their dirty work for them.

They, and the Tories in the UK, have positioned themselves so that they're only saying No if we say No - in which case their refusal will be redundant. The only independent possibility of a refusal was Germany, but their constitutional court gave Lisbon a clean bill of health.

cordially,
Scofflaw

KINGVictor · 23-07-2009 05:57PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

They, and the Tories in the UK, have positioned themselves so that they're only saying No if we say No - in which case their refusal will be redundant. The only independent possibility of a refusal was Germany, but their constitutional court gave Lisbon a clean bill of health.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scoff...Are you implying that if the treaty is passed before presumably the Tories are voted in,then there is nothing they can do about it despite the fact a lot of UK voters would be voting in the hope that this would be feasible.

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 06:14PM

KINGVictor wrote: »

Scoff...Are you implying that if the treaty is passed before presumably the Tories are voted in,then there is nothing they can do about it despite the fact a lot of UK voters would be voting in the hope that this would be feasible.

To be honest even if Ireland rejects the treaty there is very little the Tories can do, as i understand it. The treaty has been fully ratified as agreed on in Britain therefore the ratification process in Britain is complete so having a referendum would actually be illegal as such. And lets be honest Cameron is using this kind of rhetoric to get the UKIP voters, thats the problem when you have pretty much only one party on the right and one party on the left in the country....

BlitzKrieg · 23-07-2009 06:19PM

KINGVictor wrote: »

Scoff...Are you implying that if the treaty is passed before presumably the Tories are voted in,then there is nothing they can do about it despite the fact a lot of UK voters would be voting in the hope that this would be feasible.

Its more of a wont rather then can.

Tories have taken the populist position on Lisbon, even when a substantial portion of their own party disagree with it.

P. Breathnach · 23-07-2009 07:02PM

KINGVictor wrote: »

Scoff...Are you implying that if the treaty is passed before presumably the Tories are voted in,then there is nothing they can do about it despite the fact a lot of UK voters would be voting in the hope that this would be feasible.

Many commentators believe that the Tories don't actually want to scupper Lisbon (although they have a sizable Eurosceptic group among them who probably would). The possibility that we will derail the process allows them to strike attitudes at no political cost. If we vote yes, we might make them uncomfortable.

[That must be a good case for a yes vote: the prospect of seeing David Cameron trying to wriggle out of the ensuing situation.]

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 07:11PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Many commentators believe that the Tories don't actually want to scupper Lisbon (although they have a sizable Eurosceptic group among them who probably would). The possibility that we will derail the process allows them to strike attitudes at no political cost. If we vote yes, we might make them uncomfortable.

[That must be a good case for a yes vote: the prospect of seeing David Cameron trying to wriggle out of the ensuing situation.]

speaking of brits and reasons to vote yes, i heard on the czech television that UKIP and their nationalistic group in the EP want to campaign in ireland against lisbon. i mean thats bound to get the irish voting for yes, no british person will tell how to vote!;):D

ei.sdraob · 23-07-2009 07:43PM

Mario007 wrote: »

speaking of brits and reasons to vote yes, i heard on the czech television that UKIP and their nationalistic group in the EP want to campaign in ireland against lisbon. i mean thats bound to get the irish voting for yes, no british person will tell how to vote!;):D

Declan Ganley tried telling us how to vote ...

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 08:04PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Declan Ganley tried telling us how to vote ...

yeah bit he was irish...sort of...kinda...well he had an irish passort...i think:D

ei.sdraob · 23-07-2009 08:13PM

Mario007 wrote: »

yeah bit he was irish...sort of...kinda...well he had an irish passort...i think:D

Ganley's public schoolboy accent gave him away imho

then theres Rupert Murdoch and his media empire's anti EU spin

and lets not forget how quickly SF abandoned their "hate" for the British in order to side with brittish euro skeptics, tis was rather amusing to observe

KINGVictor · 23-07-2009 08:52PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ganley's public schoolboy accent gave him away imho

then theres Rupert Murdoch and his media empire's anti EU spin

and lets not forget how quickly SF abandoned their "hate" for the British in order to side with brittish euro skeptics, tis was rather amusing to observe

So basically because he had "public schoolboy British accent" .....inevitably lessens his credibility despite the fact he is Irish .I know a few Public officials in Ireland that have American/English accents.

On the issue of Sf...very contentious ,but logically enemity doesn't last forever...and because there is lack of discourse among our major political parties in Ireland on the Lisbon treaty does not mean it should be the same everywhere.
In most EU countries ...you find some opposition political parties that still oppose the Lisbon treaty.No one can defend the position in Ireland politics...unless most are in politics as a result of their Parents antecedents or cowardice...they must have different Ideological positions for F sake.
We dont even have a lot of Independents that oppose the treaty if any ...sounds to me like the principle of argumentum ad populum...because most of my colleagues support the treaty...so therefore they must be right.The toicheach,dick roche and fellow colleagues confessed to have never read the treaty...and yet they support the contents....idiotic to say the least.They would as guilty as the NO campaigners consistently attacked on this forum as not understanding the treaty before voting No.

I personally believe that...even as we speak a lot of both No/Yes voters have not read the treaty in full or fully comprehend its implications/disadvantages/advantages before forming an opinion.
It all boils down to what your idea of Europe should be/or shouldn't and each individuals inference as to what would be positive/negative in the treaty...and also regretfully what constitutes the most popular stance.

ei.sdraob · 23-07-2009 08:58PM

KINGVictor wrote: »

So basically because he had "public schoolboy British accent" .....inevitably lessens his credibility despite the fact he is Irish .I know a few Public officials in Ireland that have American/English accents.

On the issue of Sf...very contentious ,but logically enemity doesn't last forever...and because there is lack of discourse among our major political parties in Ireland on the Lisbon treaty does not mean it should be the same everywhere.
In most EU countries ...you find some opposition political parties that still oppose the Lisbon treaty.No one can defend the position in Ireland politics...unless most are in politics as a result of their Parents antecedents or cowardice...they must have different Ideological positions for F sake.
We dont even have a lot of Independents that oppose the treaty if any ...sounds to me like the principle of argumentum ad populum...because most of my colleagues support the treaty...so therefore they must be right.The toicheach,dick roche and fellow colleagues confessed to have never read the treaty...and yet they support the contents....idiotic to say the least.They would as guilty as the NO campaigners consistently attacked on this forum as not understanding the treaty before voting No.

I personally believe that...even as we speak a lot of both No/Yes voters have not read the treaty in full or fully comprehend its implications/disadvantages/advantages before forming an opinion.
It all boils down to what your idea of Europe should be/or shouldn't and each individuals inference as to what would be positive/negative in the treaty...and also regretfully what constitutes the most popular stance.

I dont like the guy, but for reasons that have nothing to do with his accent or background (we were having a laugh btw dont take things seriously)

some of the reasons are:
* shady military connections
* no accountability or info on the millions of euro spend campaigning
* not answering my very simple questions in galway few months back

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 09:35PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ganley's public schoolboy accent gave him away imho

then theres Rupert Murdoch and his media empire's anti EU spin

and lets not forget how quickly SF abandoned their "hate" for the British in order to side with brittish euro skeptics, tis was rather amusing to observe

oh yeah the accent was not doing him any favours:D

its pretty much like that with every nationalistic party, they hate each other but there is no one else out there that actually understands their policies better than other nationalistic parties.

still would be funny to see the famour 'Shadow of the Gunman' poster being reprinted from the yes side if UKIP does decide to intervene:D

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 09:37PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont like the guy, but for reasons that have nothing to do with his accent or background (we were having a laugh btw dont take things seriously)

some of the reasons are:
* shady military connections
* no accountability or info on the millions of euro spend campaigning
* not answering my very simple questions in galway few months back

i agree with the above reasons, plus there's the whole issue with libertas as a political party being highly controversial as it had members that were accused of xenophobia, denying holocaust or wanting france out of the eu...

KINGVictor · 23-07-2009 10:16PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont like the guy, but for reasons that have nothing to do with his accent or background (we were having a laugh btw dont take things seriously)

some of the reasons are:
* shady military connections
* no accountability or info on the millions of euro spend campaigning
* not answering my very simple questions in galway few months back

TBH ...he is just as shady/questionable as a lot of Irish politicians running this country....or most EU officials for that matter.
Every thing listed in your post apart from your anecdotal experience are just unsubstantiated accusations btw..

..."we were just having a laugh"...can you expanse on that.

hatrickpatrick · 24-07-2009 01:46AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Who told you that?

Brian Cowen, Sarkozy, and pretty much every other pro Lisbon politician. They didn't give a single positive reason why we SHOULD vote yes, just why we SHOULDN'T vote no.

-It's going to **** our economy
-We will end up like Iceland
-Voting no to this specific treaty means you reject the entire concept of the EU and will be ostracized
-We'll end up in a two tier EU system where Ireland loses power
-Can you think of anymore? I could quote hundreds of them.

This is basically my other main reason for opposing (apart from the loss of national sovereignty, that our country should be governed by, and ONLY by the Irish citizens). I dislike being blackmailed into voting one way or another in any given situation, from an argument between friends to a national poll. These statements are untrue scaremongering tactics, and it would be a disgrace if we allowed the government and the EU elite to win on those grounds.

Scofflaw · 24-07-2009 02:26AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is basically my other main reason for opposing (apart from the loss of national sovereignty, that our country should be governed by, and ONLY by the Irish citizens).

If you believe that, then all other given reasons are superfluous, and potentially (I stress potentially) dishonest. It's a belief that's entirely incompatible with the EU.

cordially,
Scofflaw

starbelgrade · 24-07-2009 02:30AM

Democracy is a myth & wasted on the foolish who don't know what's good for them . Frankly, I'd prefer a good, honest dictatorship with a real vision, just to see if it makes any diference.

ei.sdraob · 24-07-2009 08:32AM

KINGVictor wrote: »

TBH ...he is just as shady/questionable as a lot of Irish politicians running this country....or most EU officials for that matter.
Every thing listed in your post apart from your anecdotal experience are just unsubstantiated accusations btw..

..."we were just having a laugh"...can you expanse on that.

Oh you are right, politicians lie and try to never answer any questions put to them, but this guy put this art to a new level in our quick chat

you do not lie flat (with contradicting answers and body language) to a person standing next to you and then ask for his vote

tho that's no consequence now as hes claims his political career is over

Sam Vimes · 24-07-2009 09:13AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is basically my other main reason for opposing (apart from the loss of national sovereignty, that our country should be governed by, and ONLY by the Irish citizens). I dislike being blackmailed into voting one way or another in any given situation, from an argument between friends to a national poll. These statements are untrue scaremongering tactics, and it would be a disgrace if we allowed the government and the EU elite to win on those grounds.

These statements from the no crowd are untrue scaremongering tactics, and it would be a disgrace if we allowed the liars and naysayers to win on those grounds.

You've been lied to on both sides mate. Why don't you just make up your own mind?

tlev · 24-07-2009 09:42AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Brian Cowen, Sarkozy, and pretty much every other pro Lisbon politician. They didn't give a single positive reason why we SHOULD vote yes, just why we SHOULDN'T vote no.

-It's going to **** our economy
-We will end up like Iceland
-Voting no to this specific treaty means you reject the entire concept of the EU and will be ostracized
-We'll end up in a two tier EU system where Ireland loses power
-Can you think of anymore? I could quote hundreds of them.

This is basically my other main reason for opposing (apart from the loss of national sovereignty, that our country should be governed by, and ONLY by the Irish citizens). I dislike being blackmailed into voting one way or another in any given situation, from an argument between friends to a national poll. These statements are untrue scaremongering tactics, and it would be a disgrace if we allowed the government and the EU elite to win on those grounds.

Ireland has shown itself pretty incapable of governing itself recently

ChocolateSauce · 24-07-2009 10:05AM

tlev wrote: »

Ireland has shown itself pretty incapable of governing itself recently

Recently? I'd say since 1922 tbh. That doesn't mean I think we shouldn't govern ourselves, we just need to do it better.

If Ireland does indeed get bullied into accepting the Lisbon treaty...

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