An impersonal god?

Questioning · 08-06-2009 11:39PM #1

Long time reader, first time poster here!

I have been an atheist for a number of years now, but lately I've being thinking about god and what not a bit more. Why? No real reason, no major personal event but anyway...

I become an atheist because the idea of the RC God was laughable when I just thought about it a bit more than I had been. But lately thinking about my own atheism. I realise that the idea of a personal god is foolish, I reject the idea of a "big man in the sky" god, a god who watches every move I do and cares about what I do and say etc. But what about an... impersonal god. I use the word god here somewhat loosely simply because of what of a better word! A god who isn't a thing, who isn't even outside of our universe but a something that kicked things off, if you will. I suppose I am taking somewhat about deism.

What's more as a man of science, I've started to move myself away from 100% atheism if you will toward a more agnostic view.

Perhaps my RC up brining is still in the back of my mind because it is in to minds!

Don't really know why I posted this, methinks I just wanted to get it off my chest. Comments welcome, perhaps they might be helpful in making my mind up!

Nevyn · 08-06-2009 11:46PM

SO you are considering the possiblities of small gods as it were and that there is not just one god as per christian dogma but maybe many gods?

Questioning · 08-06-2009 11:53PM

Ugh, these things are hard to talk about it...

I won't say small gods no, like the idea of say a "earth god" and "water god" is foolish to me. Hmm, methinks I just need to go and think/write down what I am thinking about...

Nevyn · 08-06-2009 11:56PM

Discovering the terms and language is part of the journey, still congratultions on being able to get to the stage were you have set aside your issues with the religion of your childhood to the point you are considering there maybe other options outside of the christiand context and the christian contexts are no the be all and end all.

Questioning · 08-06-2009 11:59PM

Thanks!

hiorta · 09-06-2009 08:23AM

Please continue with your quest and congratulations on opening your mind to discarded possibilities.
The Christian notions of a 'big daddy' god are ludicrous as you say, but the living source and sustainer of all life is an entirely different matter.

philologos · 09-06-2009 05:24PM

hiorta wrote: »

The Christian notions of a 'big daddy' god are ludicrous as you say, but the living source and sustainer of all life is an entirely different matter.

Why?

studiorat · 09-06-2009 07:19PM

Don't forget OP a priest os a priest no matter what they preach or what they call themselves. You are sure to find even more charlatans than you ever knew there were within christianity.

starchild · 11-06-2009 12:41AM

hiorta wrote: »

Please continue with your quest and congratulations on opening your mind to discarded possibilities.
The Christian notions of a 'big daddy' god are ludicrous as you say, but the living source and sustainer of all life is an entirely different matter.

i am hopeless at using the quotes system here , this is to answer jakkass query as to why someone would refer to a big daddy god as ludicrous

This is just my opinion but i believe that you could say the christian notion of a big daddy god is ludicrous would be because of the limitations that christians believe God puts on them

for example
God says dont do this * or you will be punished

(you can replace * with whatever action you deem appropriate)

with the greatest respect to any christian i think it is this core belief belief that god will punish you for something you have done is what many others outside of the christian faith cannot understand . This is where the idea of a big daddy god seems wrong

philologos · 11-06-2009 05:04AM

starchild wrote: »

This is just my opinion but i believe that you could say the christian notion of a big daddy god is ludicrous would be because of the limitations that christians believe God puts on them

for example
God says dont do this * or you will be punished

(you can replace * with whatever action you deem appropriate)

with the greatest respect to any christian i think it is this core belief belief that god will punish you for something you have done is what many others outside of the christian faith cannot understand . This is where the idea of a big daddy god seems wrong

I think that is one of the most sensical things about Christianity actually is God's sense of justice, and His sense of universal morality.

It's quite simple if we presuppose that God is the creator of the world and that God is omniscient:

1. God created the world.
2. God is omniscient.
3. God knows everything about the world which He has created.
4. Therefore God knows best about living in it.

God has given us these rules so that we can live best in the world by serving Him, respecting ourselves, and serving others. God knows best what not to do and He knows best concerning what is perilous. Yet it is human nature that wants to say that we know better than God when we really don't. It's quite a funny power struggle people seem to have. People are so arrogant that they don't want to accept that God has it right when they have it completely wrong. Hence why we see so much blatent immorality in the world.

If you transgress God's law, God has authority over this world, and God has the right and juristiction to punish you. If you come before court, you will be punished. After your verdict there is no second guessing. Likewise with God, when you come before His judgement there will not be a second guessing. It is now when you can seek forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ so that you may accept His sacrifice for your sins. If you do not, your full guilt will be upon you. As everyone has sinned, you will be deemed guilty and you will be without excuse.

Again, makes perfect sense to me.

Nevyn · 11-06-2009 08:01AM

Thats nice glad that works for you, but it doesn't work for everyone.

philologos · 11-06-2009 08:31AM

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats nice glad that works for you, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Someone raised an objection to Christianity. I found it interesting, I gave my reasoning on it. I am hoping for an interesting response

It's quite obvious that my views and your views are going to be at loggerheads. You think that whatever floats your boat selection wise. I personally believe there is only one authentic way to God.

John 14:6 wrote:

Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you find that offensive, there isn't much I can do apart from to agree to disagree

Nevyn · 11-06-2009 10:48AM

If the op wanted to discuss this from the christian point of view he would have posted in spirituality, he didn't.

Thats nice put I don't want access to JVH, and the op seems to be wanting to discover a different on deity then what he held due to his christian up bringing. Now if his searching brings him to a better understanding of deity so that he resolves his issues and goes back to being a christian and that makes him happy makes sense from him in his life then I will be pleased for him but imho if it insteads leads him to a different spirituality which makes him happy and makes more sense for him in his life I will be equally as pleased for him.

philologos · 11-06-2009 11:11AM

Thaedydal wrote: »

If the op wanted to discuss this from the christian point of view he would have posted in spirituality, he didn't.

Ah please. You know as well as I do that the point was raised. I should have the right to question why people find the Christian concept of God to be ridiculous. I'm just looking for a bit of a light discussion.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats nice put I don't want access to JVH

Your choice.

Thaedydal wrote: »

and the op seems to be wanting to discover a different on deity then what he held due to his christian up bringing.

I'll interpret the OP for myself. The question of the Christian God being ludicrous came up. I think if the OP wants a genuine search of Christianity a honest review of the difficulties involved might be in order too.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Now if his searching brings him to a better understanding of deity so that he resolves his issues and goes back to being a christian and that makes him happy makes sense from him in his life then I will be pleased for him but imho if it insteads leads him to a different spirituality which makes him happy and makes more sense for him in his life I will be equally as pleased for him.

Fair enough. I obviously don't share your views

togster · 11-06-2009 11:31AM

Hi OP.

IMO God is impersonal. There is no big guy in the sky rather a heaven on earth or Nirvan which is only accesible when we relinguish certain things, like greed, clinging and judgement. God is what connects everything to everything.

I've always found the christian definition of God as strange. Why would god put us on this earth to judge us at the end? Perhaps we are here to reach "heaven" on earth and live in the now rather than living every day with the aim of attaining something else. So many people do this in all aspects of their lifes rather than living in the moment and appraciating that "God" is all around us and in everything around us.

Jakkas can i ask you about your quote there in which it states that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. What do you think that means?

philologos · 11-06-2009 11:44AM

togster wrote: »

Jakkass can i ask you about your quote there in which it states that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. What do you think that means?

I hold it to mean that belief in Jesus Christ is the only path to God and that He is the bridge between God and humanity due to the fact that our sins separate us from God. That's just my personal opinion. I didn't quote it to get into a theological discussion, I quoted it because Thaedydal doesn't think I am reasonable for holding this belief and that's fine, she can think that if she wants

I personally am concerned with the truth, and I don't think that several different and contradictory things can be true.

Tabnabs · 11-06-2009 11:48AM

OP, it sounds like you are making a very interesting theological journey. It would be fascinating to hear more of your thoughts.

In my experience (as a polytheist) there are many gods who don't give a flying **** what we do or what we think of them. But if you are willing to spend time and effort trying to understand them and show them some interest, most will be happy to return the attention and interest shown in them.

togster · 11-06-2009 11:52AM

Jakkass wrote: »

I hold it to mean that belief in Jesus Christ is the only path to God and that He is the bridge between God and humanity due to the fact that our sins separate us from God. That's just my personal opinion. I didn't quote it to get into a theological discussion, I quoted it because Thaedydal doesn't think I am reasonable for holding this belief and that's fine, she can think that if she wants

I personally am concerned with the truth, and I don't think that several different and contradictory things can be true.

Isn't it true that there are certain discrepencies/contradictions between things in the bible? And yet it is the truth?

I think what you wrote above to describe what you think the quate means is very reasonable. I guess i would interpret it differently because my idea of what god is, is different to yours. I belive that the teaching of Jesus Christ and other teachers is the path to God. I beleve also that our sins do seperate us from god. Again i have a different interpretaion of what sin is, or rather the reason we sin. I believe that when we are sin-free, we can be with god on this earth.

philologos · 11-06-2009 12:00PM

togster wrote: »

Isn't it true that there are certain discrepencies/contradictions between things in the bible? And yet it is the truth?

Yes, there are differences between much of Judaism and in Christianity as divine revelation developed over time. As such my understanding of some things would be different to the Jewish understanding. Jesus Christ said that He would not abolish the law but that He would fulfil it (Matthew 5:17). Through fulfilling it Jesus gave Christians a different understanding on some issues than the Jews had. Otherwise Jewish ideology is maintained in Christianity. If you want to discuss Covenantal theology I'd suggest posting in the Christianity forum.

It's more a development of the truth over time rather than Judaism not being the truth. I consider everything in Judaism to be true, but that Judaism is not complete due to the fact they believe the Messiah has not been. I believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

togster wrote: »

I think what you wrote above to describe what you think the quate means is very reasonable. I guess i would interpret it differently because my idea of what god is, is different to yours. I belive that the teaching of Jesus Christ and other teachers is the path to God. I beleve also that our sins do seperate us from god. Again i have a different interpretaion of what sin is, or rather the reason we sin. I believe that when we are sin-free, we can be with god on this earth.

I understand your view and your grievances. I don't believe that any other can bring us truly to God apart from Jesus Christ due to the sacrifice He made on the cross to reconcile our sins and thus bridge us to the Father. If there is a gap it must be filled before we can walk across it surely?

Interesting views though, thanks a lot

Nevyn · 11-06-2009 01:06PM

For some people it is not about dieties with defined personalites at all but about just a universal creative force, not good not bad that just connects all life, and that can be personafied in people as personal godhood as it were.

togster · 11-06-2009 01:55PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I understand your view and your grievances. I don't believe that any other can bring us truly to God apart from Jesus Christ due to the sacrifice He made on the cross to reconcile our sins and thus bridge us to the Father. If there is a gap it must be filled before we can walk across it surely?

Interesting views though, thanks a lot

I don't have any grievances at all tbh. I have my own interpretation of what Jesus did and said and you have yours and that's all cool! The gap you talk of.... with the upmost respect i know it doesn't exsist. I was going to say "believe" but ..

There is no gap between us and "god". I see god as a creatice force that connects everything. When you know it..well you just know it! It makes sense. The only thing that stops the majority of people reaching god, is our "sins"/mind/attachment/clinging etc. Inner peace is the way

Oh i could go on for days, but what it comes down to, is that you have your definitions and i have mine.

togster · 11-06-2009 01:56PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

For some people it is not about dieties with defined personalites at all but about just a universal creative force, not good not bad that just connects all life, and that can be personafied in people as personal godhood as it were.

Exactly

philologos · 11-06-2009 02:24PM

togster wrote: »

I don't have any grievances at all tbh. I have my own interpretation of what Jesus did and said and you have yours and that's all cool! The gap you talk of.... with the upmost respect i know it doesn't exsist. I was going to say "believe" but .. There is no gap between us and "god". I see god as a creatice force that connects everything.

Right, interesting again. I personally just can't see given what is written in the New Testament how anyone could view the Crucifixion as being irrelevant in human salvation, or Jesus as not being the only way to this human salvation. It's something that could be debated on ad nauseum though, and probably has been already

Secondly, I talk of a gap between man and God. I think this is only a reasonable conclusion. You agreed that sins separate man from God, then in your next quote which I will get to you say that nothing can separate us from God. Interesting point. I would come to a middle point which would be in Christ there is nothing that can separate us from God (if you get time look up Romans chapter 8). Otherwise, our sins remain a blockage in our path to God. If our sins separate us from God, it is clear that there must be some form of gap or stoppage point in the way just thinking about it somewhat logically no?

togster wrote: »

When you know it..well you just know it! It makes sense. The only thing that stops the majority of people reaching god, is our "sins"/mind/attachment/clinging etc. Inner peace is the way

I'm not sure if you know it you just know it. I personally would think that there are defining events that one can account for religious experiences. However, whether or not people can relate to them or not is the issue.

Inner peace might be good, but I think the truth is more important than inner peace

togster · 11-06-2009 03:00PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Right, interesting again. I personally just can't see given what is written in the New Testament how anyone could view the Crucifixion as being irrelevant in human salvation, or Jesus as not being the only way to this human salvation. It's something that could be debated on ad nauseum though, and probably has been already

Im sure it has! But i'm new to this

I'm not saying the crucifiction is irrelevant at all. quite the opposite. I see it as a symbol of our own possible crucifiction, death (of ego and mind driven states) and subsequent resurrection of our tru spirit on this earth. Differnces again but the core reasoning is similar i guess

Jakkass wrote: »

Secondly, I talk of a gap between man and God. I think this is only a reasonable conclusion. You agreed that sins separate man from God, then in your next quote which I will get to you say that nothing can separate us from God. Interesting point. I would come to a middle point which would be in Christ there is nothing that can separate us from God (if you get time look up Romans chapter 8). Otherwise, our sins remain a blockage in our path to God. If our sins separate us from God, it is clear that there must be some form of gap or stoppage point in the way just thinking about it somewhat logically no?

OK. When i speak of "myself" i am speaking of my true nature free from ego and thoughts. So for me there is no seperation between me and god. My mind/ego does at time create this "gap" i.e. the connection is disrupted or i loose reception for a while

i "sin"

Jakkass wrote: »

Inner peace might be good, but I think the truth is more important than inner peace

I believe you can only know the truth when you know inner peace

starchild · 11-06-2009 07:47PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I think that is one of the most sensical things about Christianity actually is God's sense of justice, and His sense of universal morality.

It's quite simple if we presuppose that God is the creator of the world and that God is omniscient:

1. God created the world.
2. God is omniscient.
3. God knows everything about the world which He has created.
4. Therefore God knows best about living in it.

God has given us these rules so that we can live best in the world by serving Him, respecting ourselves, and serving others. God knows best what not to do and He knows best concerning what is perilous. Yet it is human nature that wants to say that we know better than God when we really don't. It's quite a funny power struggle people seem to have. People are so arrogant that they don't want to accept that God has it right when they have it completely wrong. Hence why we see so much blatent immorality in the world.

If you transgress God's law, God has authority over this world, and God has the right and juristiction to punish you. If you come before court, you will be punished. After your verdict there is no second guessing. Likewise with God, when you come before His judgement there will not be a second guessing. It is now when you can seek forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ so that you may accept His sacrifice for your sins. If you do not, your full guilt will be upon you. As everyone has sinned, you will be deemed guilty and you will be without excuse.

Again, makes perfect sense to me.

each to their own jakkass, we are all on the same road just some of us take a different path.

I have no problem with any of your 4 points, they make perfect sense especially where you say God knows everything about the world he has created. I would definitely agree with you that God knows best about how to live in it. This is where we differ in that you believe God set down a rulebook and well i dont.

i simply dont agree with you that God needs us to behave in a certain way.

I have no doubt you are very set in your beliefs and they help you to lead a fulfilling life which is great. I wish you the best in this. I simply view the world a little differently than you.

It is my belief that we are all one , everything and everyone of us are the same. We are all part of the world the omnisicent God created and all of us will be a part of this no matter what we do. Why because we are part of God. I do not believe that God will ever judge me and find me wanting. In my world there is no purgatory or hell. God will never punish me nor will he ever punish you or anybody else. God is forgiveness as jesus was and is forgiveness. The path of jesus christ is but one way to God, there are thousands upon thousands of others. No one religion is right and no one religion is wrong, how could they be for God created them all.

It is the simplest yet the greatest truth available to us. We are all one.

To the op i would say you are on a great path , question everything just because it is written by someone else does not make it right. Find your path to God be it a personal or impersonal one. I would also say that believing in God does not mean you are belonging to a religion. God can be a powerful diety or simply a mass of energy. Its just a way of recognising that we are all part of the same thing.

philologos · 11-06-2009 08:44PM

starchild wrote: »

each to their own jakkass, we are all on the same road just some of us take a different path.

I'm not sure about this hypothesis either. As a Christian I can't share the view that all roads are equally genuine.

Matthew 7:13-14 wrote:

‘Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

What I will agree on is that it is your choice, as a person with free will. I can't help but believing that there is one way, and one path which is true. To me it's impossible that contradictions can all be true.

starchild wrote: »

I have no problem with any of your 4 points, they make perfect sense especially where you say God knows everything about the world he has created. I would definitely agree with you that God knows best about how to live in it. This is where we differ in that you believe God set down a rulebook and well i dont.

I think God has revealed rules to us because He cares for us, and He wants us to live the best way we humanly can. He wants to save us from a lot of trouble. Think about this question:

Why on earth would a God be so cruel as to let us live in this world without giving us any guidance or showing us the correct way to live? It seems like lunacy to me that a God could exist and not lead His people to love one another and to serve the community in the best way possible.

Bear in mind I don't consider the Bible to be merely a rule book. It's so much more.

starchild wrote: »

i simply dont agree with you that God needs us to behave in a certain way.

I don't agree that God needs us to behave in a certain way. What I do hold is:

1) God has authority over us.
2) God wants us to behave honourably towards one another.
3) God wants us to respect Him and His creation.

starchild wrote: »

I have no doubt you are very set in your beliefs and they help you to lead a fulfilling life which is great. I wish you the best in this. I simply view the world a little differently than you.

Likewise

. I don't think I'm so much "set" in them. I just trust that they are the truth. The only reason I posted in here was that people said they considered the concept of God in Christianity to be ludicrous and I wanted to as a Christian ask why. I think that's fair right?

starchild wrote: »

It is my belief that we are all one , everything and everyone of us are the same. We are all part of the world the omnisicent God created and all of us will be a part of this no matter what we do. Why because we are part of God. I do not believe that God will ever judge me and find me wanting. In my world there is no purgatory or hell. God will never punish me nor will he ever punish you or anybody else. God is forgiveness as jesus was and is forgiveness. The path of jesus christ is but one way to God, there are thousands upon thousands of others. No one religion is right and no one religion is wrong, how could they be for God created them all.

I'll go through this bit by bit:

1. Yes, we are all one.
2. Yes. God being omniscient created us.
3. We are a part of God? No. We are God's creation, but we are not God Himself. I do however believe that through baptism we become dead to our sins through the Crucifixion and raised to new life with Him to serve as Christ's body on this earth.
4. I believe there is such thing as hell, but not purgatory. Jesus talked about hell in the New Testament quite a bit.
5. I do believe that God will judge people. I believe in a God of justice, a fair God who has given His people a way to salvation should they so choose.
6. God is forgiveness, to those who repent. You say Jesus is forgiveness, yes He is to those who believe in Him. Hence why the phrase "There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus" is used by Paul. (Romans chapter 8).
7. I disagree that Jesus is but one path to God. As I've explained above it's incompatible with Christianity. Christ is the only mediator between God and man being both human and divine.
8. Again, I clearly believe that Christianity is the truth, so I can't agree with you here either

. It's not that I believe that Christianity as a religion is right or wrong though, it's that I believe that God has been true, and God is right and has revealed Himself through prophets.
9. God created all religions? I think man made a lot of religions to suit onesself. People make religions and idols for themselves to follow nowadays on a daily basis. Whether literal idols or idols which are harder to find, such as alcohol dependance, drug dependance, and so on.

starchild wrote: »

It is the simplest yet the greatest truth available to us. We are all one.

Yes, we are all one, but God is also one, and because we are one, God's justice is binding on us all. This is my take on it anyway.

Questioning · 12-06-2009 01:26AM

Thanks Dyflin. A few days ago, when thinking about it a bit more (and doing the lawn

) I came to a possible/part conclusion.

I love science, it is my life. The aim of science is to simply understand nature and the world around us by using observation, experiments and logic.

Religions aim (does it even have one?), or the aim as I see it, is to understand god(s). This is done by revelation, the Bible etc.

As I see it (in the limited knowledge) science and religion are "looking" for the same thing, but are going about it in two very different ways. Maybe, just maybe, "god(s)" are the four(or three depending on how you look at it) forces of physics. (Gravity, weak, strong and electromagnetism)

And maybe, just maybe, the Theory of Everything, the single theory that will explain all is god...

Of course some questions still come out of this but hey, not bad for a 20 year old is it?!

As always comments welcome but if ye could keep it to the topic at hand that would be great thanks...

Nevyn · 12-06-2009 01:39AM

Questioning if you feel any the posts in the thread are dragging them off topic I suggest that you report them.

Questioning · 12-06-2009 01:42AM

Na, I don't feel the need to report them...I'd only use that for offensive material...

Joe1919 · 12-06-2009 10:36PM

Questioning wrote: »

But what about an... impersonal god.

Below are some impersonal Gods.

Aristotle God was impersonal, a first cause,(Deism)

It might be worth looking up Spinoza's God which is pantheism.

Hegel's God is a sort of absolute spirit, the collective consciousness of all of humanity. Very interesting but complicated writer. Hegel claimed to be a Christian but some disagree.

There are also guys like this who try to combine physics and metaphysics etc. Some of his arguments are very credible.
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/

Iwasfrozen · 07-07-2009 04:31PM

Jakkass wrote:

What I will agree on is that it is your choice, as a person with free will. I can't help but believing that there is one way, and one path which is true. To me it's impossible that contradictions can all be true.

So you're here to save us ?
What if we don't want to be saved.

Jakkass wrote:

I think God has revealed rules to us because He cares for us, and He wants us to live the best way we humanly can. He wants to save us from a lot of trouble. Think about this question:

Why does God care about us again ?
I find it funny that Christians always say that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscience yet he cares about what Humans do.
Heres a simple riddle to prove that God and Evil cannot exist:

Epicurus wrote:

Is God willing to prevent Evil, but not able ?
Then he is not Omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing ?
Then from whence cometh evil ?
Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call is God.

Now I know you Christians are'nt really in the business of logic. But is you could give me an answer for my little quote I would be very surprised.

Jakkass wrote:

I don't agree that God needs us to behave in a certain way. What I do hold is:

1) God has authority over us.
2) God wants us to behave honourably towards one another.
3) God wants us to respect Him and His creation.

Why would a supreme God care what we do ?
Isn't vanity a sin ?

Jakkass wrote:

Likewise . I don't think I'm so much "set" in them. I just trust that they are the truth. The only reason I posted in here was that people said they considered the concept of God in Christianity to be ludicrous and I wanted to as a Christian ask why. I think that's fair right?

The idea of a Christian is ludicrous. simple as.

Jakkass wrote:

5. I do believe that God will judge people. I believe in a God of justice, a fair God who has given His people a way to salvation should they so choose.

What sort of a loving father would torture his Children for all eternity becuase they don't believe in him ?
All religions make up a Hell story to get scare people into converting.