Airsoft vs Enviroment.

markY6222 · 24-06-2009 8:57pm

andros wrote: »

Folling on my previous post about BBs usage, one thing came to my mind. Probably someone else look at this before me, but are you aware, that:

Going on the the scirmish and shooting 5000 BBs per day or weekend is equal to trowing away 30 empty Lucozade bottles.

I'm trying to use Bio-BBs as much as possible, but sometimes I'm "forced" to use plastic ones.

30 Lucozade bottles is equivalent of 5000 .20g BBs (Lucozade Bottle - 32.61g)

I'm going to find a shopping bag to calculate how many shopping bags would it be.

edit: One plastic shopping bag (disposable ones) = 5.77g so 5000 BBs is equivalent of 173 shopping bags being trown away.

Its Great to see some one who Cares But sadly bios are too expensive for me I just dont have the cash but when i do i do my best to buy bios i would recermend corkairsoftshop for the purchase of bios

andros · 24-06-2009 8:58pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

To be honest, your constant repetition of this is getting annoying to the point of dogma.

The point is that you want every one to do ... what? Precisely?

Is it by any chance the same thing that you should have done before jumping up and down screaming about how BB's are wrecking the world with barium or whatever? I.e. gather information by means of testing for noxious environmental contaminants in soil or atmosphere as a direct result of the presence of BB's and what damage - if any - this could cause?

You are asking everyone to "be concerned" about BB's when there is no evidence that we should be concerned yet. I suggest you go and either do the research or find some other, peer reviewed data which suggests a significant problem.

I'm going to finish my involvment in that disscusion on that post. You are exadurating what I was saying. And I find this very anoying. I just started thread saying it's a lot of material we are leaving on sites every week in some cases every day. No we are going to doom the World. I'm not going to repeat myself. And I'm not expect you agreeing with me or understand what my point of view.

@Stone.cold: after 10-20 years we can be swimming in garbage. There is also posibility of toxic substances getting into the soil and ground waters.

NakedDex · 24-06-2009 8:59pm

andros wrote: »

Yeah they degrade, fall apart to smaller particles. They will decompose probably after 10 - 20 years, can't say don't have that info at the moment.

Dex when did I say that bbs desintegrate completly?

You didn't. I never said you did.

Now, here's where the story takes a totally different twist. Decomp takes a hell of a lot longer than degradation. Had you said decomp from the start, this would have been a different conversation.

However, it shouldn't be overlooked that these plastics are inert. In standard form they harm nothing (unless they're doing approximately 320fps in your direction), in their degraded, powder form they harm less than nothing and are virtually unnoticeable.

As I said before, the burden of proof for your theory (and everything is a theory until proven infallibly, see "theory of relativity" and "theory of evolution" for confirmation of how accepted something and still be just a theory) is on you. Obtain hard evidence and data to support your hypothesis and we'll talk turkey.

Stone.cold · 24-06-2009 9:00pm

andros wrote: »

I'm going to finish my involvment in that disscusion on that post. You are exadurating what I was saying. And I find this very anoying. I just started thread saying it's a lot of material we are leaving on sites every week in some cases every day. No we are going to doom the World. I'm not going to repeat myself. And I'm not expect you agreeing with me or understand what my point of view.

In fairness the world was doomed before we ever picked up an airsoft gun, theres an old saying "pointless closing the gate after the horse is gone"

Hivemind187 · 24-06-2009 9:03pm

andros wrote: »

I'm going to finish my involvment in that disscusion on that post. You are exadurating what I was saying. And I find this very anoying. I just started thread saying it's a lot of material we are leaving on sites every week in some cases every day. No we are going to doom the World. I'm not going to repeat myself. And I'm not expect you agreeing with me or understand what my point of view.

Believe me mate if I could understand you and translate it I'd get a job with the frigging UN science council.

I didnt exaggerate anything, I asked a question.

WHAT
DO
YOU
WANT
?????????????????????

andros · 24-06-2009 9:13pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Believe me mate if I could understand you and translate it I'd get a job with the frigging UN science council.

I didnt exaggerate anything, I asked a question.

WHAT
DO
YOU
WANT
?????????????????????

I don't want anything. I never sayid I want anything. I said it like 100 times on that thread. We are leaving lot of material and nobody cares and M-A-Y-B-E we should. You don't have to shout. That is all about.

Hivemind187 · 24-06-2009 9:18pm

andros wrote: »

I don't want anything. I never sayid I want anything. I said it like 100 times on that thread. We are leaving lot of material and nobody cares and M-A-Y-B-E we should. You don't have to shout. That is all about.

You want us to care.

I told you how to go about making that happen.

You dont want to do anything other than argue. At this point, I'm starting to suspect you are simply bored and looking for a row.

andros · 24-06-2009 9:23pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

You want us to care.

I told you how to go about making that happen.

You dont want to do anything other than argue. At this point, I'm starting to suspect you are simply bored and looking for a row.

I don't want to argue, trust me, have better thing to do. There at some stage we were involved in constructive debate, but things went wild. Subject is exahusted for now and I don't see point to continue it at the time being.

@NakedDex: If I said BBs are desintegrating, it was rather honest misstake rather than acctual lack of knowledge.

kevteljeur · 24-06-2009 9:46pm

andros wrote: »

I don't want anything. I never sayid I want anything. I said it like 100 times on that thread. We are leaving lot of material and nobody cares and M-A-Y-B-E we should. You don't have to shout. That is all about.

Arguments aside, I'm with you. I've been posting in favour of bio-bbs since I started airsofting.

Since then I found the best way to practice environmentally-friendly airsoft is to keep the bbs in a bag in my room, and not actually use any of them.

Or the AEGs.

.

iceage · 24-06-2009 9:49pm

Spetzcong wrote: »

I don't see that we are obliged to be concerned about anything. Surfers know that their surfboards are harmful to the environment, and bar one or two companies making 'green' surfboards (which aren't hugely successful tbh) the rest of them still carry on regardless, and they're a bunch of long haired tree hugging hippie types (not all of 'em, but a far greater percentage than the half-crazed gun nuts you meet airsofting). Personally I don't feel obliged to be concerned about the environment at all, even if I were firing depleted uranium pellets all over it. If you want to get all "an inconvenient truth" about things go right ahead, but don't expect me to row in behind ya, especially not if you can't back up your argument with facts.

Oye! don't drag Surfers into this argument.

Spetzcong · 24-06-2009 10:16pm

iceage wrote: »

Oye! don't drag Surfers into this argument.

I'm a surfer too, the worst kind, the kind that lives in Dublin and hasn't been for a surf in about 8 months.

So I suppose I'm not really a surfer, but I do own a couple of surfboards, and not the 'green' kind either, take that environment! Kapow!

kinkstr · 24-06-2009 10:17pm

iceage wrote: »

Oye! don't drag Surfers into this argument.

Chill out brah

iceage · 24-06-2009 10:26pm

I bet you drive a car to the beach as well!! A few people in here could do with a good session(surf) and get them to chill the fcuk out. Thats it Spetzcong we have it sorted, Airsoft and surf sessions, the cure to all our ails.:)

ravydavygravy · 24-06-2009 10:27pm

I don't get all the aggro - all the OP suggested was that we throw away a lot of plastic when we play airsoft - whether or not they degrade quickly, and whether or not the degraded substances are of any consequence to the enviroment are decent questions, that no-one seems able to answer... no need for all the arguing :-)

ABS (lego!) seems like a good bet for BB construction, and since its pretty resistant to chemical reaction, I'd wager the only likely way for them to degrade in nature would be through mechanical action (i.e. being trampled on, etc...). Other than being unnatural landmass, I don't think they do any significant enviromental damage.

ABS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene

However, the plastic will be around in the ground for a long time, and maybe bio-bbs are a good alternative - they will break down into safe organic compounds and eventually leave no trace. Why add more plastic to the ground, when we have a choice not to? We all learned to live without a million carrier bags....

Want to be a scientist? - get some BBs and leave them on the soil in a quiet part of the garden, under a pot or something to stop birds taking them - lets see how long they take to degrade. My bet is on 100+ years....

andy_g · 24-06-2009 10:32pm

ravydavygravy wrote: »

My bet is on 100+ years....

nah my bet is half that only 50 years :rolleyes:

kinkstr · 24-06-2009 10:32pm

iceage wrote: »

I bet you drive a car to the beach as well!! A few people in here could do with a good session(surf) and get them to chill the fcuk out. Thats it Spetzcong we have it sorted, Airsoft and surf sessions, the cure to all our ails.:)

lol nah, i parachute down right after ive taken down a bank wearing a mary robinson mask and catch a few waves:D
Seriously though i just replied because i found it funny people giving out about surfers in the same thread about boidegradable bb's.

Spetzcong · 24-06-2009 10:45pm

kinkstr wrote: »

lol nah, i parachute down right after ive taken down a bank wearing a mary robinson mask and catch a few waves:D
Seriously though i just replied because i found it funny people giving out about surfers in the same thread about boidegradable bb's.

Thats what I enjoy about boards.ie, you get two boards users in a thread and you'll get at least three opinions, one argument and a load of inane gibberish that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic.

Today has been a particularly slow day for sensible discussions though, I like to think I'm at least partly responsible for that.

Sod'o swords · 24-06-2009 10:49pm

Thinking about it now, it'd be a decent fight.

Both sides have their pros and cons,

but i think the environment would win in the end.

Seeming how airsoft guns, and their non lethality and the environment, well being a large collection of natural occurrences, it'd actually be a one sided fight.

Duno why everyone's going on about bio bb's though.

iceage · 24-06-2009 10:49pm

Next thing you know we'll have to ban all barbys at events because of they're carbon emissions :rolleyes: Yep thats whats coming guys, no fun, no surfboards, soggy paper BB's and no barbys...ahh Poo.

tonky · 24-06-2009 10:52pm

Spetzcong wrote: »

Thats what I enjoy about boards.ie, you get two boards users in a thread and you'll get at least three opinions, one argument and a load of inane gibberish that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic.

Today has been a particularly slow day for sensible discussions though, I like to think I'm at least partly responsible for that.

LOL Very good.

All this over INERT 6mm plastic balls.
Surely there are more pressing concerns in the world. // insert inane gibber//

andros · 25-06-2009 6:57am

iceage wrote: »

Next thing you know we'll have to ban all barbys at events because of they're carbon emissions :rolleyes: Yep thats whats coming guys, no fun, no surfboards, soggy paper BB's and no barbys...ahh Poo.

Imagine that in some parts of the world (USA - don't remember where exactly or if is it all around the country now) there is requirement of using gas BBQ because of the pollution.

Like I said before, there must be some concern about plasctic BBs laying around as someone made this: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filn.../bio_tests.htm (as long as that what his agenda)

Regarding ABS, I can't definitively agree or dissagree with that, but ABS is rather expensive in production and BBs doesn't require such mechanical properties.

Here is a quote from one of the links mentioned by Dr.Pepper in the beggining:

"Biodegradable

Biodegradable pellets are available, and are often required by outdoor fields where sweeping up is not an option. Conventional pellets are a pollutant of the environment - most ordinary pellets have a mineral or petroleum-based center coated non-biodegradable plastics, ensuring they will stay in the environment for several hundred years if not collected. Biodegradable pellets are made of various types of resin, often developed for the agricultural industry, and better makes are certified as compostable."

PET is known as safe packing material be we are not leaving it laying around.

Dr_Pepper · 25-06-2009 9:15am

andros wrote: »

Here is a quote from one of the links mentioned by Dr.Pepper in the beggining:

"Biodegradable

Biodegradable pellets are available, and are often required by outdoor fields where sweeping up is not an option. Conventional pellets are a pollutant of the environment - most ordinary pellets have a mineral or petroleum-based center coated non-biodegradable plastics, ensuring they will stay in the environment for several hundred years if not collected. Biodegradable pellets are made of various types of resin, often developed for the agricultural industry, and better makes are certified as compostable."

PET is known as safe packing material be we are not leaving it laying around.

You do realise that the info you have quoted if from Wikipedia, the encyclopedia written by the public, that same paragraph doesn't have ONE citation for the source of these so called facts?

As i said before this entire thread is speculation.
There are ZERO facts regarding the enviornment and BB's presented in this thread or that I can find.
I suggest those who care anout this topic (including me), conduct some tests. Otherwise this idea will go nowhere.

andros · 25-06-2009 10:35am

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

You do realise that the info you have quoted if from Wikipedia, the encyclopedia written by the public, that same paragraph doesn't have ONE citation for the source of these so called facts?

As i said before this entire thread is speculation.
There are ZERO facts regarding the enviornment and BB's presented in this thread or that I can find.
I suggest those who care anout this topic (including me), conduct some tests. Otherwise this idea will go nowhere.

I'm aware of that. I know Wikipedia is not highly recommend source of information, but it doesn't change fact that information quoted from Wikipedia is true. Not about impact on the enviroment but composition and in that spirit information was quoted. Would you be less rectulant if the information of the composition came from let say HSE web page?

From the logical point of view:

Substance A) is not very good and we should avoid leaving spreading it around - and that is know fact. You find that information on two different sources, one less reliable than the other. Doesn't make information incorrect.

"Speculation" on which my hypothessis is based, conclude from information avaliable to me at the time being. It's analisys of avaliable information. By saying there is no impact we're speculating as much as I'm saying there is.

Other thing, some of the manufactures in switching to PLA as a material for manufacturing BBs from petroleum based materials, because it's safer. You don't need to make a big reasearch to think about that.

Regarding facts, maybe that facts are not suficient for you? I understand that - you have well established point of view and need very strong arguments. In my oppinion sole existance of Bio-BBs should be enough. Don't think it's only driven by global eco-hype thing.

Hopefully manufactures of airsoft consumables realize that (and it seam they do realize) and keep using safer ingredients.

Hivemind187 · 25-06-2009 10:49am

andros wrote: »

I'm aware of that. I know Wikipedia is not highly recommend source of information, but it doesn't change fact that information quoted from Wikipedia is true. Not about impact on the enviroment but composition and in that spirit information was quoted. Would you be less rectulant if the information of the composition came from let say HSE web page?

From the logical point of view:

Substance A) is not very good and we should avoid leaving spreading it around - and that is know fact. You find that information on two different sources, one less reliable than the other. Doesn't make information incorrect.

Speculation on which my hypothessis is based, conclude from information avaliable to me at the time being. By saying there is no impact we're speculating as much as I'm saying there is.

Other thing, some of the manufactures in switching to PLA as a material for manufacturing BBs from petroleum based materials, because it's safer. You don't need to make a big reasearch to think about that.

Regarding facts, maybe that facts are not suficient for you? I understand that - you have well established point of view and need very strong arguments. In my oppinion sole existance of Bio-BBs should be enough. Don't think it's only driven by global eco-hype thing.

Hopefully manufactures of airsoft consumables realize that (and it seam they do realize) and keep using safer ingredients.

Do you have ANYTHING to offer other than opinion?

Because frankly mate, thats all you have presented. You have even said clearly that you are speculating. We have asked for evidence. You refuse to provide it.

Spetzcong · 25-06-2009 10:56am

This thread is going around in circles, I can't take another day of this, I'm going outside...

andros · 25-06-2009 11:08am

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Do you have ANYTHING to offer other than opinion?

Because frankly mate, thats all you have presented. You have even said clearly that you are speculating. We have asked for evidence. You refuse to provide it.

I gave you the evidence.

1. Manufactures switching to PLA plastics.
2. Existance of Bio-BBs.
3. Some of the countrys allow for use of Bio-BBs only.

Is it not enough to even start thinking or talking about that?

Maybe evidence are here, but they are not strong enough for you, my friend. What kind of evidence are you looking for to think: Hmmmmm... Maybe we are using kilograms of plastic.

Maybe this is what I want to give you... My opinion.

Hivemind187 · 25-06-2009 11:22am

andros wrote: »

I gave you the evidence.

1. Manufactures switching to PLA plastics.

Why? Not useful as evidence unless you can explain why they have done so. Is it cheaper? Is it easier to work with? Is there a difficulty in sourcing other plastics?

Just because they have changed does not automatically mean that they have done so to help the environment, in fact most capitalistic models would show that this is likely the last thing on their minds.

andros wrote: »

2. Existance of Bio-BBs.

Does not equate to their existing because they are better for the environment. Perhaps, which is most likely, the manufacturers saw a gap in the market to appease the eco-weenies out there and filled it with an expensive product. Or is it really that all manufacturers care so much about mother earth?

andros wrote: »

3. Some of the countrys allow for use of Bio-BBs only.

Irrelevant. Countries are run by governments, governments are populated by people and people are universally dumb as hammers. See: Dermot Aherns stance on Gun Crime in Ireland.

Just because a country has capitualted to the eco-lobby does not mean they have done so for any other reason than to garner votes and curry favor with the electorate.

None of this is evidence. It is only opinion. I again say to you - Show us something to be genuinely concerned about, show us which bit is actually a danger, show us the bodies and the devestation.

Give us a reason, not more of your emotional gibbering.

andros · 25-06-2009 11:28am

Your arguments have lots of sense.
I'm sharing my opinion with you and you don't have to agree with me. I've right to my opinion. Do I?

I don't realy see any more reason to continue that debate.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Give us a reason, not more of your emotional gibbering.

You have developed incorrect image of me, but I don't care.

Dr_Pepper · 25-06-2009 12:17pm

Alrightt!! Lets do this point by point!! I love these conversations.
Quote my questions before you answer.

andros wrote: »

I'm aware of that. I know Wikipedia is not highly recommend source of information, but it doesn't change fact that information quoted from Wikipedia is true.

1. So you do believe the information? With no dates or citation?

andros wrote: »

Substance A) is not very good and we should avoid leaving spreading it around - and that is know fact.

2. Ok. But they say the same thing about lead and all kinds of other things that are damaging. But i accept the point, not where it goes.

andros wrote: »

"Speculation" on which my hypothessis is based, conclude from information avaliable to me at the time being. It's analisys of avaliable information. By saying there is no impact we're speculating as much as I'm saying there is.

3. I never said there was No impact. Clearly there is some impact. However you didn't even google the simple term "airsoft bb enviornment", which i did to supply you with those 2 links. It seems more like an opinion has been formed and you didn't even search for facts tbh.

andros wrote: »

Other thing, some of the manufactures in switching to PLA as a material for manufacturing BBs from petroleum based materials, because it's safer. You don't need to make a big reasearch to think about that.

4. And how do you know what every manufacturer puts in their BB's? Have you checked/analysed or even found out what is in a BB beyone believing a public forum and a public encyclopedia?

andros wrote: »

Regarding facts, maybe that facts are not suficient for you?

5. You have yet to link a single fact to the BB's that we all buy.

andros wrote: »

I understand that - you have well established point of view and need very strong arguments. In my oppinion sole existance of Bio-BBs should be enough. Don't think it's only driven by global eco-hype thing.

Do not try to state your understanding of my opinion because your misinterpertation is flawed and incorrect based on that sentence.

6. The existane of Bio-BB's doesnt prove that Non Bio-BB's are harmful.
How did you jump to that?

andros wrote: »

Hopefully manufactures of airsoft consumables realize that (and it seam they do realize) and keep using safer ingredients.

7. Same as point 4. How do you know they haven't done this already?

-PornStar- · 25-06-2009 12:58pm

I read this topic because it is something that I'm concerned about. I would like to know something more about the effects of putting all that plastic into the environment every week.

But all I have seen are 8 pages of name calling, branding, misunderstanding, personal attacks and assumptions. There is a serious case of mob mentality in effect in this thread, by a lot of regular posters.

Andros Im with you brother. Not because I believe bb's have any significant effect on the environment. But because I am open to the possibility, and discussion has to start somewhere.

Airsoft vs Enviroment.

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