Irish Promotions' Thread Info & Results

ShawnRaven · 21-06-2009 02:52AM

leggo wrote: »

1) Nero, the net was NEVER IwW's core fanbase. Sorry to tell you that. Sure Simon did a few things that appealed towards that direction...the NWA/IwW feud being one such example...but the net fans never made it worth his while to bother continuing. You turn a profit by appealing to families, you go out of business by appealing to smart marks. Fact. Ireland isn't NEARLY big enough for an RoH-style promotion to do well.

Whatever helps you and Simon sleep at night, fact of the matter is, despite what numbers IWW claim to have drawn in the past two years, photographs of events since 2007 have shown that attendances haven't been anywhere near as successful as their whiplash years. Reviews of shows from "smart marks" have been piss poor, not because the promotion didn't "pander to them", but because they threw bad gimmicks on bad workers giving them characters that nobody particularly give a f*ck about.

I will agree with you (as i have done before) that Simon has made the most out of that change of direction. But don't try to tell everyone that the product is as good or successful as it was three years ago, because you're kidding yourself. And the fact that IWW guys are looking for external bookings after the promotion had a strict "no working anywhere else" policy, says a hell of a lot to me, i can't speak for anyone else though.

leggo · 21-06-2009 03:14AM

I know how good attendances were in 07, that's when I was in charge of promoting and booking the house shows so it was my job to know.

I'm not here to defend IwW as it stands nowadays. I don't know their current attendances as I haven't been to a show this year and don't pay much attention tbh. I'm going, mainly, on what's been said here.

And mate, I'm sorry, but the 'reviews' you speak of had nothing to do with the turn away from the net. I'm telling you this with 100% honesty...in my 4 years with the company I NEVER heard ANYONE talking about a review they read on boards. That's not to say they didn't...but as far as *I* could tell, the only people who cared about the reviews were the 10 people who read them.

It was the fact that there is only about 10-20 people on boards who actually pay attention to Irish wrestling. And, however vocal those 20 people are, it makes no sense to worry too much about them when you can pull ten times that number with posters & flyers.

Anyway, off to bed. If there's anything else, post it here and I'll reply sometime tomorrow.

ShawnRaven · 21-06-2009 03:20AM

leggo wrote: »

I know how good attendances were in 07, that's when I was in charge of promoting and booking the house shows so it was my job to know.

Then you'll remember the decline after TWC decided not to do a series 3 of Whiplash then.

I'm not here to defend IwW as it stands nowadays. I don't know their current attendances as I haven't been to a show this year and don't pay much attention tbh. I'm going, mainly, on what's been said here.

Which is fair enough, we're both in that same boat.

And mate, I'm sorry, but the 'reviews' you speak of had nothing to do with the turn away from the net. I'm telling you this with 100% honesty...in my 4 years with the company I NEVER heard ANYONE talking about a review they read on boards. That's not to say they didn't...but as far as *I* could tell, the only people who cared about the reviews were the 10 people who read them.

It was the fact that there is only about 10-20 people on boards who actually pay attention to Irish wrestling. And, however vocal those 20 people are, it makes no sense to worry too much about them when you can pull ten times that number with posters & flyers.

It wasn't just here, it was also on IWW's very own forum too, before it started getting hacked time after time. I do agree that if you can sacrifice 20 people to pull in ten times that number. But by the looks of event photos, IWW have sacrificed more than 20 people, and being able to pull in more than they lost is somewhat questionable.

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 03:27AM

The best show IwW ever did was the first super show in the SFX. I even own it on DVD I enjoyed it that much. That crowd was pretty much all "smart marks" and was hot from start to finish. I saw very few kids in that packed house. It was set up like a proper wrestling show with big matches and the fans turned out for it. Things like Jody Fleisch's big mystery return were clearly pandered to the smarts, and worked. You have to give them a reason to give a ****, and directionless shows with cheesy gimmicks that pander to kids don't do that. The kids will turn out as soon as they see a poster that says "Wrestling" but for a long term brand you need more than the one shot kids.

As for your experiences booking with IwW, of course fans weren't going to turn up to see you pay off your storylines, because you didn't have the structure in place to educate them. I can't even name an IwW feud off the top of my head, just gimmicks and random matches. If you think house show, you'll always remain house show.

I know how business works despite your claims to the contrary, and to have long term success, you need to give incentive for fans to keep coming back. A wrestling show for a wrestling shows sake can be quite dull. I've sat through Irish shows and other shows that have just been 6 or 7 matches and been bored to tears. Unless you have 5 star workers in there, it's just not gonna hold up long term. You need the rivalries and the soap opera. The big show experience in a small setting.

As for the over saturation point. CPW in their day pretty much ran Drimnagh every single time and consistently pulled about 100 there abouts. They did storylines that arced and from attending shows, I could see that those that attended knew EXACTLY what was going on. Some guys were major over from storylines on previous shows and some had big heat. Now CPW did that with the minimum of promotion. Imagine what you could do if you tried to reach out.

PWU in the north also have arcing stories on their monthly shows and draw solid crowds. UCW back when they had a kick boxing ring and questionable match quality were pulling crowds of hundreds with arcing stories.

It is VERY possible to do a succeful promotion that has stories that are followable. Fans are not stupid people who can't comprehend why one guy hates another like you think. Give them the tools to follow you and if they like the product you present, they will.

leggo · 21-06-2009 12:54PM

Cannibal, to make it simple for you, this is why you can't run storylines at house shows:

***The local papers only want to hear about the hometown guy, the champion and the import. I used to send off massive PRs to the papers detailing info about every guy on the show and every little story arc we could (simple reason behind that: the more they published the bigger the coverage we got)...and (unless I had a contact in the paper) they'd edit out the bits that didn't involve the above.

***Without commentators or local press coverage, it's IMPOSSIBLE to run angles on shows without doing promos, skits etc. People pay their money to see wrestling...not half-amateur hour acting and shorter matches...so you can only run 2 promos per show TOPS. Anything else is self-indulgent tripe that kills the show's momentum. Fact is: unless it's a big show like the SFX one, people only WANT to care about 1-2 big matches then booyay the rest of the way. Look at WWE house shows for example.

***No offence, but when I was looking after promotion for IwW we were going through the biggest and most profitable growth period in the company's history (still is as far as I know)...so we weren't looking to attract the same crowd's as CPW. Nothing against the guys in CPW...again, they're just guys looking to make it same as I was...but using them as an example of a successful company is weak at best.

***We ran some great storylines at Gym Wars for the guys that were interested in that stuff (King of the Gym, Me/Manson/Darcy, turning Bam Katrazz into a serious competitor etc etc)...so it's not as if people were totally neglected in that field. That's what Gym Wars were for...we had our 50-odd people per show who knew everyone on the card and catered specifically for them. Then we used those angles (at least when I was booking) to sell on house shows. Idea being: if you travelled to the house show, while the rest of the punters may just see it as an average throwaway match, the GW fans would know the backstory behind it and have an added depth of appreciation for it.

***I'll just say this too...because you were in the business. You can make every argument FOR storylines that you like...but putting it into practise is a whole other different story.

Remember when you first got into it, for example, there was one REALLY COOL idea (be it a move, an angle etc) you probably had that you were convinced would 'change' the business? Every starry-eyed mark is the same when they first join...I was too. You can list 101 reasons why it's a great idea. Then you actually put it into practise and realise that the idea sucked a lotta balls?

No offence...but I once would have made the exact same argument that you are now. Then I put it into practise. And it sucked a lotta balls. Sorry to break it to you dude. But again, if you ever prove me wrong then I owe you a coke.

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 03:14PM

You needn't make things simple for me, I understand your points just fine.

The local papers only want to hear about the hometown guy? Fine, tell them about the hometown guy. I was never suggesting that you use newspapers to tell your story. They very rarely get into bed with wrestling.

Without commentators or local press coverage, it's IMPOSSIBLE to run angles on shows

Why?... and who says you can't have commentators. You can easily make a streamed show on the internet if you chose. Marketed and positoned right that show could get hundreds of thousands of hits internationally, if not in excess of a million. You can put all the commentators you want on that.

Fact is: unless it's a big show like the SFX one, people only WANT to care about 1-2 big matches then booyay the rest of the way. Look at WWE house shows for example.

Why not give every show the SFX feel then? The ulimate goal should be to get your guys over to a point to carry a big atmosphere show without the supposed "big names". You can't make your own stars without stories to establish their drives and motivations. Just look at what came out of the FWA in England. That was a tiny promotion that rapidly expanded and out of it came Jody Fleisch, Jonny Storm, Alex Shane, Doug Williams (FWA made their names) and many others out of their academy that fast became in demand internationally. They even got to the point where they were co-promoting shows with RoH. You'll never get to that stage with your Conor Hurley's and Captain Rooney's however.

Nothing against the guys in CPW...again, they're just guys looking to make it same as I was...but using them as an example of a successful company is weak at best.

I used that as an expample of people being able to understand things and actually returning to a venue if you hit it more the 4 or 5 times a year. It was a small scale example, and I said as much. I said, imagine what could be done with a bit of push behind it.

You completely ignored my other examples, like UCW being able to draw 400-600 people while bumping in a rock hard kickboxing ring.

No offence...but I once would have made the exact same argument that you are now. Then I put it into practise. And it sucked a lotta balls.

Put it into practice how? I have NEVER seen IwW push a feud or multiple storylines at once. If you do it in a show far out in the country and don't tell anyone it happened, of course it's going to fall flat on its face.

You can't say it won't work on a massive scale cause it simply hasn't been done yet. You can't do a half assed one or two show effort and say it doesn't work, especially when you made no effort to tell the outside world about them. IwW has never done it, period. They have always done self contained shows, even when they HAD tv.

Promotions that have done it on a small scale have had success with it proportionate to their level. Promotions as near as England have done it to great success but tried to expand too quick to get a handle on it.

leggo · 21-06-2009 03:43PM

1) Why not have Commentators/Stream online: To make it worthwhile, the cost of regular PROFESSIONAL production would be too expensive to give a financial return. A promoter without a good financial backer would go out of business extremely quickly with this idea (I could give you figures if you wanted)...or it'd make his company look bad because of poor production.

2) Why not make every show an SFX show: Lack of financial resources again. SFX shows are extremely costly to hold...and holding them regularly would ruin the novelty of having big international stars overseas. Again, a great way to go out of business quickly. See the original 1PW for example.

3) UCW: I know nothing about this promotion so that's why I didn't discuss them.

4) I've listed examples of how I put it into practise, e.g. Gym Wars. I also used to do posts after every house show listing the major 'happenings' (then tying them into the TV show, GW angles etc) that you can probably find in this very thread.

And the simple fact remains that it's IMPOSSIBLE to run multiple storylines on a show without doing too many promos...which is markish fantasy booking. People paid for wrestling, too boo the bad guys and cheer the good guys. Not promos and skits. You give them 1-2 things to actually sink their teeth into (hometown guys, champion etc) then the rest is just simple, effective, booyay wrestling.

This is stuff that works. And it's drawn the most regular, consistent money that any promotion based in this country has. You can't argue with the numbers mate.

And, once again, if you believe that it's an idea worth doing, then I fully welcome you to put your money where your mouth is and do it. If it's THAT good of an idea...then surely you'll make good money no? And you can quote me on all of this if I'm proven wrong.

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 04:40PM

To make it worthwhile, the cost of regular PROFESSIONAL production would be too expensive to give a financial return.

It doesn't have to look like a Transformers movie. Once you have a crisp picture, decent sound and a good editing job, it'll look just fine. The likes of CHIKARA seem to get by just fine.

SFX shows are extremely costly to hold...and holding them regularly would ruin the novelty of having big international stars overseas.

I didn't say hold every show in the SFX, I said give your shows the SFX feel. As for the international stars, I said the point would be to make your own stars like FWA did with Fleisch, Storm, Shane and Williams.

e.g. Gym Wars. I also used to do posts after every house show listing the major 'happenings' (then tying them into the TV show, GW angles etc) that you can probably find in this very thread.

Posting on forums is hardly a sustained effort at promoting, and the old Gym Wars venue is not exactly a place to measure the success of the concept. I never attended a Gym Wars myself, but my outside perception is that they weren't full fledged shows. That you would be getting a lot of fresh trainee's and younger kids wrestling much like the monthly FFPW friends and families shows.

And the simple fact remains that it's IMPOSSIBLE to run multiple storylines on a show without doing too many promos...which is markish fantasy booking.

Not every story starts with a promo or skit. Most of your story would be told in the run up to the show and then enacted on the show itself. A lot of stories can be told within the actual context of the match. You don't see RoH rampant with promo's, but they have big feuds and rivalries all the same. In reality, one show would actually be two shows when it comes down to it. You would cater the live show to the audience and relate the stories as best suits that format, then on the edit you would do the show that goes out and that would feature more promos etc and hype for upcoming shows. It would tell the same stories but in a different way for a different type of audience. Then people who watch that will know what the stories are at the next show and not need much live promo explanation as to what is going on. Of course that wouldn't be the only method of finding out about it. It is all about making your promotion as available as possible and everyone who promotes in the country seems to think it is about making your promotion as closed off as possible.

This is stuff that works. And it's drawn the most regular, consistent money that any promotion based in this country has. You can't argue with the numbers mate.

I can argue that the more IwW have gone down the cookie cutter booyay route, the more they have shrank. They were on the verge of becoming a European brand at one stage, now people doubt if they are even the best in Ireland anymore.

And, once again, if you believe that it's an idea worth doing, then I fully welcome you to put your money where your mouth is and do it. If it's THAT good of an idea...then surely you'll make good money no? And you can quote me on all of this if I'm proven wrong.

I almost did just that in 2005 but I stepped aside to make way for somebody after I was given certain promises that were never delivered. Back then I had the money, a job and no responsibilites. Now I have no job, tons of responsibilities and my savings are going towards an apartment in the near future which takes priority.

You may see it in the future but not the immediate future as I am not financially secure enough and it would require a big intitial investment that would take me a while to recover, I would want to own my own ring rather than rent etc. I'm happy enough to let the likes of Gerry Soul take his turn while I get my **** outside wrestling together.

I even have a detailed business plan drawn up that covers just about every single aspect of what I'd intend to do and how I'd go about doing it with all the worst case expenditures and worst case incomes factored in. The margins are definitely tight so there is no major money in it, at least not short term but you can nickel and dime your way to a good position sometime in the future.

Till such a time, I can only sit back and offer my thoughts without money in front of my mouth. When I do it, I'll be doing it from a position of security.

ShawnRaven · 21-06-2009 04:57PM

leggo wrote: »

If you ever prove me wrong though, I'll happily hold my hands up and admit it.

leggo wrote: »

But again, if you ever prove me wrong then I owe you a coke.

leggo wrote: »

And, once again, if you believe that it's an idea worth doing, then I fully welcome you to put your money where your mouth is and do it. If it's THAT good of an idea...then surely you'll make good money no? And you can quote me on all of this if I'm proven wrong.

This is getting a little tiresome leggo, you seem to think that having a few theories that you seem to think can't be proven wrong, automatically makes you right. That isn't necessarily the case, especially when you keep saying "prove me wrong".

Because if IWW happen to go under in the next few months, you will be proven wrong and you will be left with a lot of egg on your face.

leggo · 21-06-2009 05:01PM

@Cannibal:

Fair play man.

And when you do it...can I please say I told you so? Cus I guarantee that you'll HATE posts like you're making now that completely fail to see the big picture.

That being: it's very easy to sit back on your PC and say, "Well they clearly should do this and this and this" (even though this this and this, whether good ideas or not, are either financially impossible or would drive your company out of business for various reasons)...but it's a WHOLE other kettle of fish to get up off your arse and actually do it.

To find a balance, that plays within the constraints that you're limited with, that achieves the closest thing to the end product as possible...all the while with a ton of people who've never been in your position telling you how to do your job. All the while assuming that you HAVEN'T thought their genius masterplans through and found out that they haven't worked.

That's not a personal dig at anyone, by the way, let's just make that clear. It's just an insight into what guys like Simon et al have to deal with.

It's rough man. Again, if you do it you'll have my complete respect. But anticipate a few grey hairs and a lot of humble pie along the way.

@ShawnRaven:

How will I be proven wrong?

My tenure promoting for them came between mid-2006 to mid-2007. The biggest growth period in ANY Irish promotion's history! Look at the numbers...do some deep research and check the figures if you like...you even quoted the period yourself as its most successful.

Anything that happened after then hasn't got my fingerprints on them. Certainly not in 2009 a year after I've last wrestled for the promotion...

ShawnRaven · 21-06-2009 05:10PM

leggo wrote: »

@ShawnRaven:

How will I be proven wrong?

Because IWW has been on a downward spiral since about mid 2007 onwards, around the time the direction of the company changed. No doubt IWW will blame it on the recession though.

My tenure promoting for them came between mid-2006 to mid-2007. The biggest growth period in ANY Irish promotion's history! Look at the numbers...do some deep research and check the figures if you like...you even quoted the period yourself as its most successful.

Yes, the period of where it catered for the fans that you now brush off as "internet smarks", but this part of the conversation is going around in circles now, isn't it?

Anything that happened after then hasn't got my fingerprints on them. Certainly not in 2009 a year after I've last wrestled for the promotion...

Nobody said you had anything to do with the change of direction of the company. But Cannibal does have a good point, if you have a loyal fanbase that you disregard for a family who'll show up once, maybe twice, numbers, although they will increase for a short period, when the kids get sick of it, the parents won't attend either. Leaving a HUGE dip in attendance, and a kiddy friendly product that it's former fans won't want to touch with a barge pole.

A theory that you blatantly disagree with because of your own experience (and that's fair enough, i might add), I just think that it's the promotions final nail in the coffin. And it's something that time will tell on too.

pingu_girl · 21-06-2009 05:24PM

Anybody got any shows in the Waterford/Cork area soon?

leggo · 21-06-2009 05:50PM

Yes, the period of where it catered for the fans that you now brush off as "internet smarks", but this part of the conversation is going around in circles now, isn't it?

Is your argument that internet smarts made IwW?

Dude, I could probably name for you the main smarts that came to our shows on a regular basis...they're so few and far between. JeffK was a great, loyal supporter of us and a really cool bloke...but claiming that he's main reason behind IwW's success is a bit of a stretch haha.

It was family crowds, a solid business plan, some good national and local media coverage and stellar groundwork promotion that got them that success. I know, I was there.

Usually when I don't agree with you, I at least can see your point...but that is one ridiculously far-fetched argument you have there ha.

ShawnRaven · 21-06-2009 05:55PM

leggo wrote: »

Is your argument that internet smarts made IwW?

Dude, I could probably name for you the main smarts that came to our shows on a regular basis...they're so few and far between. JeffK was a great, loyal supporter of us and a really cool bloke...but claiming that he's main reason behind IwW's success is a bit of a stretch haha.

Point out where i claimed that please?

It was family crowds, a solid business plan, some good national and local media coverage and stellar groundwork promotion that got them that success. I know, I was there.

Still pushing the company line after being absent from the promotion, eh? More power to you. But while you were in the building, probably chopping and changing things at the last minute, I was IN the actual queues. And believe me, during that time period, it wasn't mostly family crowds.

Usually when I don't agree with you, I at least can see your point...but that is one ridiculously far-fetched argument you have there ha.

Who the hell, over the age of six ends their side of the argument with "ha."?
Oh do grow up, please.

leggo · 21-06-2009 06:10PM

It was funny dude. Relax. I laughed!

ShawnRaven · 21-06-2009 06:12PM

leggo wrote: »

It was funny dude. Relax. I laughed!

I wish I could, but the decline of what was once a non missable promotion (and i'm not joking about that), stopped being a sick joke to me a long time ago.

Just being honest man.

leggo · 21-06-2009 06:33PM

I wish I could, but the decline of what was once a non missable promotion (and i'm not joking about that), stopped being a sick joke to me a long time ago.

Just being honest man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmYeebWumVY

Right, I think I'm done here for a couple weeks. No doubt I'll have something to debate/argue about with you guys in the future!

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 06:51PM

Not a lot of what IwW has done has really been by design. They quite often happen into things by accident and let the current take them wherever that accident is heading. TWC basing themselves in Howth was pure chance and IwW got buddy-buddy with Sean Herbert and found themselves with good production, a TV show and access to international stars for super shows and training seminars.

It all fell into their lap, but they didn't really know what to do with it all. The TV show was very random and one of the most poorly reviewed on TWC by UKFF and TWC forum posters, but they grew all the same just by being right place at the right time. In better hands the experience would have been a spring board onto bigger and greater things. They have gone from one idea to the next without really knowing where they plan on ending up and the family focus is the latest incarnation of that.

IwW is the biggest frustration for me because on more than one occassion they have been in the position to pull the trigger and turn into something much more ambitious, but let it pass them by so they could stay in a comfort zone. They have gone from being the undisputed number 1 in Ireland with plenty of prospects for expansion beyond Ireland, to argubly #2 out of a tight top 3 within the country.

Families are a short term money spinner. It's a smash and grab get the money and get out. Fine for semi regular tours, but for a brand you need them to come back. One they've seen your booyay act once, why would they come back. The matches will be the same and all the surrounding factors will be the same. Your show becomes stale after only one show in the area. Build a community around you, feed it and sustain it and then expand it and you will soon have yourself a rabid fanbase. Local bands seem to do a better job than local wrestling promotions of building a community around themselves I feel.

Gerard.C · 21-06-2009 09:08PM

What is Eamon D'Arcy up to there days? Is he still dancing around like a stark mad lunatic?

RAMPAGE1 · 21-06-2009 09:17PM

I think storylines are vital I remember getting excited and interested at the thoughts of IWW and NWA working together. I remember thinking finally people are thinking the right way then it fell apart because people forgot how to conduct business but this could have been the beginning of serious strides forward for Irish Wrestling. I believe that promotions here don't run storylines because one the shows aren't regular enough to keep it in peoples minds and 2 it requires too much effort. I'm sure Gerry Soul could comment on the amount of effort it took to put the storylines through CPW. I also disagree with the fact that people don't want to see backstage interviews to build matches. I remember NWA doing this once and I thought it added greatly to the show in the way it built each match even from the kids point of view as they new before hand who the Good and bad guys were. These days you go to shows and god knows who is heel or babyface. Don't most of the top wrestlers in the business talk about their matches in that they were trying to tell a story and not just deliver a series of moves and counter moves. I don't think that the mind set should be any different for a house show , gym war or a Supershow. I believe that Wrestlers have a duty to deliver the best the can everytime they step through the ropes after all isn't that why its called professional wrestling. Based on Gerry's posting last week I'm excited again at the thought that all promotions talent could be pooled into single shows and the talent should be equally as excited and pumped up about this as the possibilities are endless and I think the whole wrestling community in Ireland both fans and wrestlers should support this in everyway.

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 09:46PM

The way I would do it if I were to do it is in short tours. Little point in doing one off shows cause it's too hard to maintain momentum. Also easier to recoup your money over a number of shows.

I would operate around bank holiday weekends and do 4 day tours and film everything. At the end of your tour you'd announce a forthcoming "super show" for the next bank holiday with some sort of snazzy name. The best action would be edited down into a series of 1 hour shows that have a story focus. You then show these shows on every form of media you can get them onto. Everything on the show would be building to a huge pay off show that will be the first show of your next tour. Constantly the dates of your next shows will be hyped and the feuds promoted. Every match would have a meaning of some sort.

So then the first show of the next tour is your big pay off show, and the other 3 days of your tour are for filming material to build to the super show on your next tour.

If you're not touring, you're showing weekly footage, if you're not showing weekly footage, you're touring. No matter what your promotion always seems active with something always going on and your fans are given something to sink their teeth into and follow.

I also have tons of ideas for one off shows that would work, but those are for another time.

GerrySoul · 21-06-2009 10:32PM

The Cannibal wrote: »

The way I would do it if I were to do it is in short tours. Little point in doing one off shows cause it's too hard to maintain momentum. Also easier to recoup your money over a number of shows.

I would operate around bank holiday weekends and do 4 day tours and film everything. At the end of your tour you'd announce a forthcoming "super show" for the next bank holiday with some sort of snazzy name. The best action would be edited down into a series of 1 hour shows that have a story focus. You then show these shows on every form of media you can get them onto. Everything on the show would be building to a huge pay off show that will be the first show of your next tour. Constantly the dates of your next shows will be hyped and the feuds promoted. Every match would have a meaning of some sort.

So then the first show of the next tour is your big pay off show, and the other 3 days of your tour are for filming material to build to the super show on your next tour.

If you're not touring, you're showing weekly footage, if you're not showing weekly footage, you're touring. No matter what your promotion always seems active with something always going on and your fans are given something to sink their teeth into and follow.

I also have tons of ideas for one off shows that would work, but those are for another time.

You Basta*d you stole my idea

no but seriously i have thought about doing something almost exactly like this
its just simply..........MONEY

Without a big financial backer or 10-20 very successful shows under your belt to have a good cash supply should something go wrong ya can't do it.

GerrySoul · 21-06-2009 10:33PM

leggo wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmYeebWumVY

Right, I think I'm done here for a couple weeks. No doubt I'll have something to debate/argue about with you guys in the future!

Oh and just priceless. brilliant.

do do do dodo dodododo

CMpunked · 21-06-2009 10:56PM

Gerard.C wrote: »

What is Eamon D'Arcy up to there days? Is he still dancing around like a stark mad lunatic?

Met the guy out once, (you know, him being from drogheda and all) and man was he pissed, 100 times friendlier than what he ever was with IwW, and that seemed impossible.

Hear he's off doing some arts degree or something.

Also heard a rumour he wants to run the country.

Well i know for one that I'd vote for him.

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 11:01PM

There would be an element of risk early going but if you don't sleep you should turn out alright :P

The first tour would be all about getting as close to break even as possible, most likely running at a loss. Keeping everything within a tight projected budget and not exceeding it, possibly with a smallish, carefully selected roster initially that would be expanded if everything goes to plan. It would need a LOT of leg work promoting with the conventional methods in conjunction with the never exploited online movement. Make it easy for people to find you. I'd call the first tour the fact finding tour because you'd want to absorb every single morsel and detail about those who attend your shows and use it to bring them back for the second tour. Find out their prefered methods of contact, sign them up to mailing lists. Get to know them and include them. Give them the impression that you are playing for keeps.

It would be on the second tour you would be hoping to make money, if only a small amount on show expenses at least and not the extras. That's where you'd see if the story theory really does pay off with the pay off. At this stage your online show would have been running, you've hopefully expanded your community around you and on your shows you'd be pumping those dates as well as through all the contacts you've absorbed from the first tour. You should be making it easier for yourself with every tour. There should be weeks of promotion put into this show at this rate and the big show in this theory should hopefully carry you over from the red into the black, with the other shows contributing to your total and hopefully with attendences on the rise if only a little.

It'd be the third tour that I'd really expect the full picture to come together. You've gotten past the introduction phase and the shackles are off and you can be a bit more creative with how the show is presented. If nothing is working right at this stage, then it is probably fecked.

So, in short I think you can build a succesful model and the beginnings of a comitted community within 3 tours as long as the appropriate leg work on the ground and commitment to update things online is put into it, there'd be no room for slacking or error. It'd pretty much be full time work. It'd be very sink or swim but I think it could swim with the right crew and minds. All things of an ambitious nature always flirt with disaster but that is the nature of the beast.

Some might think me over ambitious to the point of flaw like Leggo does, but I wouldn't be so opinionated if I honestly didn't think it could be achieved whether on this optimistic timescale I've put or a longer one.

Rawm2008 · 21-06-2009 11:19PM

It'd pretty much be full time work.

This is why it wouldnt work, youve given yourself 3 tours with possible 3 shows on each thats 9 shows to try and get everything togther and it wouldnt even be till after your second tour would that anything would be noticed. That not succeful long term plans thats flash in the pan stuff.

Back to the full time work thing, WWE etc can get away with it as thats what they employ people to do, they pay people to run there website constantly and update it, they pay video editors etc

Chikara etc look good cause they got an OUTSIDE production company , smartmark video, doing all the leg work with there dvds, i know my self that to do a DVD to proffesional stanard that isnt editied LIVE at the event is an expensive and long process,

most wrestling shows have 3 cameras, hard cam and two floor cams, you gotta pay those guys and depite what people wana hear the 3 camera men on there own would cost prob HALF what any wrestling show in ireland is spending on just one event, thats just for filming a show never mind editing.packaging and mass procudeing dvds etc.

Doing live wrestling events with a story built into that show is all people care about, if even its the wrestling thats gets them into the seats a little story on the night is the iceing on the cake. for anyone to argue against that have delsuions of granduer.

and for someone who posted on here that u need to know before going into a show before hand whos face and heel thats a load of crock, if a wreslter cant make people know on the 30 second to the minute on his entrance alone if hes a good guy or bad guy better just quit there and then.

The Cannibal · 21-06-2009 11:41PM

It would be 12 shows actually in that scenario. 4 shows per tour. 1 would be a supershow, the other 3 would be the building shows that would be cut up and edited into the one hour programs. I would probably even chance getting a "name" on tour one to get some more spotlight on it even if it does run at a loss.

I've worked on short film projects that have had next to no budget at all and in post production in home studios were made to look like a million bucks. Photoshop, Adobe Premier and a commentary track and you're good to go. Any other things you can get over time and gradually up your production.

Camera men you wouldn't pay. You'd get 3 decent quality camera's and get helpers out for those roles. Maybe hook them up with something if you feel like it but they wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

The website, editing shows, doing the leg work etc is where it'd verge into full time because you'd have to do it yourself with maybe some volunteers if you're lucky. Much like ECW was pretty much run out of Paul Heyman's mother's basement. It's just a fact. If you want to do a promotion with that level of ambition, you need to do it full time, probably in conjunction with a full time job that you already have so you're looking at 80 hour weeks. It was never claimed to be easy. If you have a job where you can do all your updates and stuff from there, all the better. You'd have to be a madman who really loves it to get into wrestling promoting. That is never denied. My argument is that a solid home grown promotion is achievable over time and won't lose you an arm and a leg once the community is built. The promotion aspect of it would get a little bit easier once the infrastucture was in place.

Things like websites can even make you money instead of costing you money if done right, and there are other elements you can bring into your promotion to help offset initial costs but I'll go into those another time maybe.

Rawm2008 · 22-06-2009 12:16AM

Camera men you wouldn't pay.

Yea thats smart,cut corners where it matters most if you want an onlive or dvd to help sell the product,camera men who know how to get the shot use cameras etc fck that ill get a mate and tell him to press record that will do me,

like i said chickara etc outside company, Len davies who runs or ran RQW (which is dead is it not) is a prodcution company first and foremost, hell he not films nearly ALL uk shows like WZW etc or at least used to.

ECW had proper TV equipment, it was run out his mother basement as it was a place for him to cut a corner so he didnt have to pay for a studio, promos done in the baement a park from the venue etc, in the venue etc.

But every one still got paid, way better than anyone here could hope for from the indysnot like ECW was run on a shoestring budget like irish shows are, it had the money to pay guys decnt pay trought out u only got to watch enough shoot interviews and youd know this.

like everything it all takes time, just this is the MTV generation nd people expect everything there and then, ROH has a great model for there shows, film skipts and promos backstage before dureing and after shows, edit and place them in DVDs in the write order, thats the DVD taken care off, then do the youtube ten minute advertisen video where u have guys plug upcoming shows recap the MAIN storyline /fued that will be the focus of the show, plug the dvd the schol etc

its all doable but it all takes time and the big one, everyone getten this one MONEY, and im not talken 5k or something hell 5k will help you get a decent ring made and shiped, new promotion with all those ideas you wana becomfrtabel and secure try 50k other wise start with 10k and slowly build yourself up from there.

Do the booyaa shows get the money, work for that smoke machine, that extra camera, the light rig etc.

like jake roberts said you wana make a $1 million in wrestling start with $2 million.

The Cannibal · 22-06-2009 12:38AM

I don't pay for what I can get for free. There is no way I'd even consider paying a camera man as much or more than a wrestler working the show especially when the margins are as tight as they are. If the shows were making substantial money I would, otherwise the money would be saved for the actual talent. The hard camera is what it is and the floating cameras follow wherever the action goes, and for promos someone hops up on the apron. It's not rocket science. Between all the various cameras you'll get a shot you can use whether it's a pro or an amateur wielding the camera.

I see the sense in what you say production wise but if you start with the booyay, you'll likely be stuck doing booyay as you succumb to the problems that I have listed about those shows. You need to punch above your weight or you won't punch at all.

Of course I'm not even sure if I'll even be in this country in 2 years time so it is all just theory and debate until put into practice. A fun debate none the less.

At the end of the day it is a business and you are likely right about the 50k forecast. When you think about it, that is actually cheap for a starting amount. Most businesses will take you for 200k a year between leases and staff and to my mind you are under more pressure to hit the ground running with those because you usually involve the banks. 50k is almost manageable even if it did go tits up if it is a goal of yours, a good deal of that is even one off expenses and your investments would go down. I personally wouldn't do it until I had a place that I fully owned, a steady job and am stable otherwise. I have the money to do it but not the other factors and you need everything lined up in order to do it right.

Never the less I still believe my ideas have merit and can still be employed to great success with the right people behind them. Anyone who even attempted it would get my full support, not that I expect them to given the "Now hold on a seconds" I've gotten in response

leggo · 22-06-2009 01:27AM

I actually like the direction this thread has taken. "Here's what I would do..." is a much more proactive discussion than "Here's what such and such SHOULD do..." And respect to Cannibal for putting his neck on the line too.

Cannibal, you say that E50k would be a reasonable starting cost. First and foremost...where would you get that E50k? Right now, I'll tell you, do NOT spend it out of your own cash! (unless you become a millionaire entrepeneur between now and then...even then I wouldn't recommend it...) That's asking for personal ruin...along with professional one...should things go wrong for unforeseen circumstances. Imagine what happened to IwW in Cork happened to you. Only you've invested E50k in the show. People have topped themselves over less. It's devastating.

Here's a rule of thumb I learned along the way: if you can't convince someone rich to invest the money for you...then it's not worth investing in. They'll spot the positives and negatives of your idea much quicker than you...plus won't have the personal bias that'll sometimes blind good-willing promoters.

So you've got to think about sponsorship...right down to how you'd pitch differently to the likes of IwW. Then you've got to think...who's got E50k lying around to invest in this...and how can I give them a good return on that money? Then you've got to factor in that IwW have probably tried to get sponsorship money off them, and have had the added benefit of tons of national media coverage etc behind them, so why will they invest in you when they've probably said no to more established brands? What can you offer them?

As far as production goes...how can you get your hands on some free camera equipment? Can you name for me, off the top of your head right now, people who you can get to volunteer to tape and edit the show for free? Because if you're left editing it yourself, your 80-hour week just became a 100-hour week. And why would they do it for free? I mean, you've a better chance of getting a guy to wrestle for you for free...because you are giving him a wrestling booking where he mightn't have one otherwise...but as far as production goes you've really nothing to offer those people for their time. They'd be doing it for a favour. So can you call on a team who'll put in those hours for you out of friendship alone? Keep in mind, that calling in these kinda favours can also tell you who your REAL friends are and just how loyal exactly they are to you. So it's not nice from a personal standpoint.

I'm not asking these questions to have a go. But these are the kinda specifics that need to be thought fully through when starting a promotion as ambitious as you're suggesting. One link goes missing in the chain and you've just lost a few thousand quid...or you'll have no choice but to drop an idea that you once held as fundamental to your business plan. A couple of delayed flights due to bad weather and your Supershow can turn to **** just like that.

It's that tough lads. This is why I'll constantly add a balance to the side...because I've seen this stuff happen firsthand. And, again, it's very different to stand back and criticise but a WHOLE other thing to step into someone's shoes and attempt to do it. One simple idea written in one small sentence without a moment's thought, no matter how sensible it may sound, may take six months of full-time admin work to get from paper to practise.

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