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A discussion on the rules.

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Comments

  • #242
    sceptre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,607 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    jank wrote: »
    Also whats the deal with Irish, are you not allowed to post it?
    As soon as you teach every other forum user how to read it...
    Cliste wrote: »
    And there is much merit in using Irish - but this will be an issue that takes many locked threads to solve
    Possibly, though the Politics forum isn't the place to start one. We've got a bigass Feedback forum, a Teach na nGealt forum and a Forums forum for that, depending on the discussion required.


  • #243
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    sceptre wrote: »
    As soon as you teach every other forum user how to read it...

    Listen we give everyone how many years of education in the language for free? - what more teaching do you want?!:pac:


  • #244
    dingbat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭dingbat


    Am I ok with my latest version of the Fine Gael website thread?


  • #245
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Not picking on you, dingbat, but this thread was designed for feedback on the Politics charter, not for discussion of moderation. For future reference, if anyone wants clarity on a moderator's actions I'd respectfully ask that they take it up with the moderator by private message.


  • #246
    dingbat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭dingbat


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Not picking on you, dingbat, but this thread was designed for feedback on the Politics charter, not for discussion of moderation. For future reference, if anyone wants clarity on a moderator's actions I'd respectfully ask that they take it up with the moderator by private message.
    No probs. Thank you. I have done so.

    I will also post a message here querying that aspect of the charter.


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  • #247
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    To be honest, I think the personal abuse rule should be applied in situations where posters personally abuse someone not on the forum.

    I may not agree with FF, but they do not deserve to be called pricks.

    Now that were in full pre-election swing Im getting sick of personal abuse directed at politicians. Its sad, and it does not contribute to debate in any meaningful way.

    Just my 2 cents. I read the charter and it didnt seem to be there.


  • #248
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    To be honest, I think the personal abuse rule should be (more lightly) applied in situations where posters personally abuse someone not on the forum.

    I may not agree with FF, but they do not deserve to be called pricks.

    No offence, but that second bit seems to contradict the first. I'm going to presume you mean 'more tightly'.


    'A certain amount of flack is the price of public office' would be my reply, if my guess is correct.


  • #249
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Ooops, grammatical error. Asfaik, abusing someone not on boards is not really banned.


  • #250
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Nodin wrote: »
    No offence, but that second bit seems to contradict the first. I'm going to presume you mean 'more tightly'.


    'A certain amount of flack is the price of public office' would be my reply, if my guess is correct.

    I'd agree with that, but calling people names is nothing more than the little dogs yapping. It's meaningless, particularly when the same epithets are applied indiscriminately to everybody from murderers to Ministers. Once a poster has called FF 'pricks', and then gone on to apply the same term to Hitler, GW Bush, the Gardai, and another poster for disagreeing with one of those uses, all it tells us is that 'pricks' is the posters favourite term for anyone that annoys him. Does it constitute discussion? No. Does it improve discussion? No. Does it even tell us anything about the people thus described? No. The poster might as well have repeatedly described his own testicles.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #251
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    If abuse is the sum total of the contribution eg "Cowan is a gobshite", certainly.

    However "Today Brian Cowan unveiled (yadda da yadda) - this will cause absolute chassis because (etc etc)" Is this man a total gobshite" would strike me as fair comment.


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  • #252
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Nodin wrote: »
    ... However "Today Brian Cowan unveiled (yadda da yadda) - this will cause absolute chassis because (etc etc)" Is this man a total gobshite" would strike me as fair comment.

    I wouldn't suggest that anybody should be in trouble for posting something like that, but I think it would lead to a better quality of discussion if people exercised a little more restraint. When language becomes intemperate, and when people (rather than their actions) are attacked, the issues become obscured.

    Very few people are so overwhelmingly bad that nothing good can be said about them, and very few people are so consistently good that nothing bad can be said about them.


  • #253
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ...all things in moderation, so to speak.


  • #254
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    turgon wrote: »
    Considering that only a small minority speak Irish well enough to converse in it, and that those who do speak Irish can also speak English, I think the use of Irish should be banned with the exception of Irish phrasing.

    The only reason otherwise to use Irish is to intentionally make your self misunderstood which is bad form. I think there is no merit in using it, but ye might disagree.

    Then again, just the way English speakers feel a sense of relief when speaking in their language, Irish speakers feel a similar sense when they express themselves in their language. Are Irish speakers to be denied their freedom on what is supposed to be a discussion forum on Irish politics?


    As per the above logic, I think the use of big English words should be banned because they are intentionally designed to be esoteric and I think there is no merit in people not speaking in simple plain English. What are they hiding? Are they trying to insult us? They all can speak in plain English - every one of them. It's bad form indeed.


  • #255
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    You give me an example of one boardsie who cant speak English, and then maybe I will consider your point.


  • #256
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    turgon wrote: »
    You give me an example of one boardsie who cant speak English, and then maybe I will consider your point.

    There are quite a few who seem to have difficulties in writing it.


  • #257
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    turgon wrote: »
    You give me an example of one boardsie who cant speak English, and then maybe I will consider your point.

    That's a non sequitur. The natural conclusion to your logic is as above. You are trying to institutionalise your own prejudices. There are plenty of posters who contribute here using language which is not simple, straightforward English. What are they trying to hide? Why can't they speak plainly? "Bad form" indeed.

    I shouldn't have to look up a dictionary to understand these people. Everybody should communicate in a way that satisfies my own intellectual limitations. How dare they try to humiliate me on Boards.ie. How dare they.

    And, yes, how dare anybody try to imply that Irish speakers have just as much right on Boards.ie as me. This pernicious development must be stopped or Boards.ie will be destroyed. We must resist these people.


  • #258
    Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    There are plenty of posters who contribute here using language which is not simple, straightforward English. What are they trying to hide? Why can't they speak plainly? "Bad form" indeed.

    I shouldn't have to look up a dictionary to understand these people. Everybody should communicate in a way that satisfies my own intellectual limitations. How dare they try to humiliate me on Boards.ie. How dare they.


    For anyone to look up an individual English word is very straight forward. There are any number of plug-ins for firefox to help with that.

    But for me to try and translate a whole Irish sentence, let alone an entire in-depth and complicated post on politics, I would need an Irish-English dictionary or try to find a decent online translator. Either way, chances are the grammar is going to be all over the place, which would involve a lot of decoding to try and put a bit of context to the post.

    For discussions in Irish then either the Gaeilge or Teach na nGealt forum would suit your needs.


  • #259
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    That's a non sequitur. The natural conclusion to your logic is as above. You are trying to institutionalise your own prejudices. There are plenty of posters who contribute here using language which is not simple, straightforward English. What are they trying to hide? Why can't they speak plainly? "Bad form" indeed.

    They are trying to hide nothing. The fact remains rebelheart that very often it is easier to communicate in "high-brow" English than it is to communicate in "low-brow" English. This might be especially true on the political theory forum, where such terms as the "means of production," and the "dictatorship of the proletariat" can simply not be avoided.

    Finding out the true meaning of an English sentence is quite easy: input the sentence into Google and ate the right had side you will see each word with a link. Click this to get a definition.

    Internet translations are not nearly as accurate. But you seem to insist we be allow speak in Irish, despite the fact most dont speak it.

    So would it also be ok to speak in Deustch? Or I am I right in guessing that your determination to speak as Gaelige is solely from a nationalistic disposition? In meinir Meinong, das ist nicht so gut. Verstein sie?

    And before you hit the German translator, I have intentionally misspelt those words to highlight the falacy that online translators are readily used.


  • #260
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    I don't know if it is worth getting het up about this question. The language dominantly used here is English, and I see no likelihood of that changing. If somebody chooses to post wholly or partly in Irish, or German, or Polish, or Mandarin, then it must be done with the acceptance that it will not be understood by everybody participating in the forum.

    If somebody does it enough to be a major irritant, then the moderators can, well, moderate.

    [Even though I think I don't know German, I understood turgon's post. My German is so limited that the misspellings are not an obstacle.]


  • #261
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    The fundamental problem with people posting in a language that one or more of the moderators don't understand is that it limits the ability of the moderators to manage the forum.

    The wider problem with posting in a language that a substantial percentage of posters don't understand is that it excludes them from the discussion.


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  • #262
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well its nice to know there has been bias here since at least 2007

    so - less bias please?
    as to language - can one post in irish if they provide a translation if one or more ask for it?


  • #263
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    well its nice to know there has been bias here since at least 2007

    so - less bias please?
    I've made it clear to you on several occasions that if you have a complaint about a moderator, or indeed about all the moderators (it's not clear who you're complaining about here) that you should take it to the Help Desk. So far, you've failed to do so.
    as to language - can one post in irish if they provide a translation if one or more ask for it?
    No. There are Irish-language forums on this website; this isn't one of them. Posting in a language that other posters don't understand doesn't facilitate discussion, and this is a discussion forum.


  • #264
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well i didnt mention anyone - but i think they would know who

    again - do you intentionaly misread posts and/or ignore parts of them?


    translation - see above


  • #265
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    well i didnt mention anyone - but i think they would know who

    again - do you intentionaly misread posts and/or ignore parts of them?
    The purpose of this thread is to discuss the rules of the forum. If you have a problem with the moderation of the forum, you can start a Help Desk thread.
    translation - see above
    To expand on my previous point: this is a discussion forum, and anything that inhibits discussion is unwelcome. If a post requires translation before it can be discussed, that inhibits discussion.

    Sure, it's an Irish forum, but there is much discussion of international topics. Should I allow discussion of ישראל or فلسطين in their native languages, as long as someone is willing to offer a translation? Personally, I don't think so.


  • #266
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    is ישראל or فلسطين a native language to ireland?

    if the post has a translation it doesnt inhibit discussion
    like how i translated my posts in the other thread - when you stated you didnt like it.

    i also translated others - altho you were the only one against it (?)

    would that in future be acceptable to you?


  • #267
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    is ישראל or فلسطين a native language to ireland?
    No, and not everyone who reads and posts here is native to Ireland. Further, many people who are native to Ireland do not understand the Irish language.
    if the post has a translation it doesnt inhibit discussion
    If a post has to be translated, it inhibits discussion.

    There are two possible scenarios arising from your translation proposal: either everything posted in Irish has to be translated into English, which defeats the purpose of posting in Irish in the first place; or some Irish posts don't get translated, in which case those who don't understand Irish are excluded from the conversation, and discussion is inhibited.

    The more straightforward approach is to require that people simply post in English. This doesn't in any way inhibit discussion.
    like how i translated my posts in the other thread - when you stated you didnt like it.

    i also translated others - altho you were the only one against it (?)

    would that in future be acceptable to you?
    No, and I think I've made it abundantly clear why not.


  • #268
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    many dont understand english - if they arent irish or from an english speaking country

    if i want to post in irish and english - will the post be deleted, edited or left alone?


  • #269
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    many dont understand english - if they arent irish or from an english speaking country
    People who don't understand English are unlikely in the extreme to be using this website.
    if i want to post in irish and english - will the post be deleted, edited or left alone?
    I'd rather you just posted in English.


  • #270
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    oh i have a fair idea of what you would rather.

    i asked whether you would delete, edit or leave the post alone


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  • #271
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    OB, I think you are being a little too rigid on this.

    I make a distinction between rules and laws. A rule is generally applicable, and a law is always applicable. I suggest that posting in English be treated as a rule, and that using words, phrases, or even whole sentences in other languages be tolerated in appropriate contexts (like threads discussing the use of Irish) so long as the poster uses English as the main vehicle for communication.

    As to any concerns about moderating, we have the facility to report posts. If somebody posted something inappropriate in Irish, there are a number of people around who could report it and explain what the problem was.

    [On the point of inhibiting discussion, I observe that there are posts here in what appears to be English, but which I find incomprehensible.]


This discussion has been closed.
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