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full text of lisbon2?

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  • 10-05-2009 5:49pm
    #1
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭


    where, and when, can i get the full text of the ammended text?

    thanks.


    hads any definite word been said on possibly when the vote will be held?


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    #2
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    It's due to be held before the end of October but a specific date has not been confirmed. The text of the treaty hasn't changed and the consolidated treaties can be found here. The government has been promised that declarations and clarifications will be made by the Commission, the ECJ and fellow member states before the referendum but this has not happened yet and is still in the formative stage.


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    #3
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    http://www.lisbon2.ie/

    so that website is talking crap - in law its the exact same treaty?


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    #4
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    You'll probably get better answers to this in the European Union sub forum.


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    #5
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    http://www.lisbon2.ie/

    so that website is talking crap - in law its the exact same treaty?

    The treaty has not changed. Almost all of the issues touted by the no side in the first referendum had very little to do with the treaty. What has been promised is declarations clarifying that these issues are non-issues.


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    #6
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    why vote yes - if nothing has changed

    jesus, talk about misinformation - that site clearly states ''the changes''


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    #7
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Because the reasons most people voted yes last time have been confirmed to be false.


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    #8
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    why vote yes - if nothing has changed

    jesus, talk about misinformation - that site clearly states ''the changes''

    What you're voting on is changing. The Treaty of Lisbon amends the existing EU treaties (TEC and TEU). What we voted on first time was only the changes in Lisbon. This vote is on Lisbon plus some additional amendments.

    What was agreed after the No were that there would be some additional amendments to the EU treaties if we vote Yes. These will be enacted after Lisbon, though, because they won't happen if we vote No. They'll take the form of additional Protocols amending the EU treaties, just as Lisbon does, and will have exactly the same legal standing as Lisbon. The final form of those extra amendments is to be determined at the June Council of Europe, or immediately afterwards at the start of the Swedish Presidency.

    The vote this autumn, then, is a vote on a different package from the last vote - Lisbon Plus, if you like.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #9
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    http://www.lisbon2.ie/

    Just stating the obvious but thats not an official site from the EU and I assume its not from the irish government or any of the major parties.


    personnally I keep expecting it to be some tongue in cheek thing because it looks so badly made.

    Most of the text (in about the treaty) seems to be copied word for word from the lisbon information website from during the first campaign. http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/


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    #10
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    okay

    will anything be published, online or wherever, with..

    a - lisbon
    b - the original two treaties
    c - any excerpts of the irish constitution when refrenced ''blah blah will be whatever in relation to such and such in the constitution''
    d - the changes you mentioned

    basicaly all the voter needs to make a decision - besides vote our way or europe will be mad or vote this way or the bad people in europe will eat your family and friends


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    #11
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    blitzkrieg or anyone


    where can i find valid texts for all a voter would need to make an informed decision on how to vote

    is this even availible?


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    #12
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    okay

    will anything be published, online or wherever, with..

    a - lisbon
    b - the original two treaties
    c - any excerpts of the irish constitution when refrenced ''blah blah will be whatever in relation to such and such in the constitution''
    d - the changes you mentioned

    basicaly all the voter needs to make a decision - besides vote our way or europe will be mad or vote this way or the bad people in europe will eat your family and friends

    Yeah, they'll be released once they're settled. That should be in either late June or early July, so we should have the summer and early autumn to debate them.

    Are you trying to work out how to vote on Lisbon 2 or the Euro elections?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #13
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    well euro elections is seperate - basicaly talk or read up on the candidates

    lisbon2 is a lot more dodgy to get info on - want to read the full text (ammendents etc) and anything added on

    there really should be one place where this is all viewable and explicit refrences to other relevant pieces if/or needed


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    #14
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    if you want to see the treaty in full that was up for referendum last year

    http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/full_text/index_en.htm

    and all the prior treaties

    http://europa.eu/abc/treaties/index_en.htm


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    #15
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    well euro elections is seperate - basicaly talk or read up on the candidates

    lisbon2 is a lot more dodgy to get info on - want to read the full text (ammendents etc) and anything added on

    there really should be one place where this is all viewable and explicit refrences to other relevant pieces if/or needed

    There probably will be, once the texts are settled. Until then, you'll usually find that the bureaucrats won't release anything for fear it might have a comma in the wrong place compared to the final version. The time line is definitely set for June/July - that was decided last year in December.

    We will, as usual, do our best here to find what's published!

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #16
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    thanks all

    right so if i were to read the links posted above of what was up for last year and then read the ammendments released later

    that would be all of what will be up for referendum vote?


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    #17
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    pretty much yes.


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    #18
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    whats the difference between

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ%3AC%3A2007%3A306%3ASOM%3AEN%3AHTML

    and

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:SOM:EN:HTML

    just the later one is the most up to date, beside whats going to be decided on in june to be enacted if we vote yes?

    *spinning head*

    thanks - very much


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    #19
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    whats the difference between

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ%3AC%3A2007%3A306%3ASOM%3AEN%3AHTML

    and

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:SOM:EN:HTML

    just the later one is the most up to date, beside whats going to be decided on in june to be enacted if we vote yes?

    *spinning head*

    thanks - very much

    Ah - that's the actual Lisbon Treaty and the 'consolidated version' respectively, I think. The former is the actual text, but that consists entirely of amendments to the existing treaties. So it's all "the word 'fish' in paragraph 2 subsection 3 of Article 5 (TEC, renumbered 15 TFEU) is replaced by the word 'marine organism'" - to have any idea what that means you need to go look up the existing treaties and work out what they'd look like if 'fish' were replaced by 'marine organism'.

    The 'consolidated version' is the text of the existing treaties as they would be after being amended by Lisbon - ie with 'fish' actually replaced by 'marine organism'. It's a lot more readable (for a small value of readable), but has the disadvantage that people get worked up over stuff that turns out to already be in the treaties, and nothing to do with Lisbon.

    There is also - just to really make your head spin - a consolidated and annotated version...


    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #20
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    the lisbon treaty works by building on top of the prior treaties (something the european constitution was intended to do away with)

    So the lisbon treaty as a legal document refers back to the prior treaties for most of its changes without quoting the prior treaty just providing a reference number (treay of nice article 6 section 4 etc)

    The consoludated version of the lisbon treaty is written as a reference and not a legal document so instead of simply stating the amendement it is referencing it would explain that element.

    So the Lisbon treaty would state that:
    Treaty of Nice article 18 section 4 shall be implemented with a process of rotating commisioners

    The consoludated version:
    As per the Treaty of Nice the number of Commissioners shall be reduced and a process of rotating commisioners will be implemented.

    (both examples are not actual quotes from the treaty btw)

    EDIT: yeah Scafflow explains it better then me :(


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    #21
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    right thanks

    so read the consolidated, (does that state or highlight whats new and what was already in effect?) and then take into considerations what is brought in later in june?

    cheers!


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    #22
    r14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭r14


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    right thanks

    so read the consolidated, (does that state or highlight whats new and what was already in effect?) and then take into considerations what is brought in later in june?

    cheers!

    It doesn't highlight what is new/left out so to figure out he changes you will have to compare the original ones to the new one. Just bear in mind the EC Treaty is being renamed the TFEU. Just so you can actually find the original treaty to compare it to.

    I hadn't seen a consolidated version yet having only read the actual Lisbon Treaty. Having had a look I am horrified to find they're renumbering the Articles yet again. I thought it had been agreed that they weren't going to put people through that again. Now I have to learn all the numbers again. (almost enough to make you vote no!!!:p)


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    #23
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    r14 wrote: »
    It doesn't highlight what is new/left out so to figure out he changes you will have to compare the original ones to the new one. Just bear in mind the EC Treaty is being renamed the TFEU. Just so you can actually find the original treaty to compare it to.

    I hadn't seen a consolidated version yet having only read the actual Lisbon Treaty. Having had a look I am horrified to find they're renumbering the Articles yet again. I thought it had been agreed that they weren't going to put people through that again. Now I have to learn all the numbers again. (almost enough to make you vote no!!!:p)

    This is the annotated version. It shows the (consolidated) text introduced by the Constitution and Lisbon, and the text being replaced. It's a little confusing at first, but if you're in any doubt what came from where, this is what you need.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #24
    Hitman Actual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    There's a handy summary of changes between the original two treaties and Lisbon here. I find that using that with the consolidated version gives you all you really need.


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    #25
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    sink wrote: »
    It's due to be held before the end of October but a specific date has not been confirmed.

    Great, I'll be home from my travels then and I can vote!


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    #26
    Zuiderzee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    The only readable version is here

    You can get a side by side of the official texts here

    Other stuff that I worry about is here
    I will be blogging away at this


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    #27
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    The only readable version is here

    You can get a side by side of the official texts here

    Other stuff that I worry about is here
    I will be blogging away at this

    Just to point out that Zuiderzee's links are to Jens-Peter Bonde and to OpenEurope, neither of whom are even slightly neutral in the debate. Both are involved with Libertas - the latter are the source of much of Libertas' "research".

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #28
    Zuiderzee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Scofflaw, just want to be clear, I found the Bonde link myself, he contacted me.

    The Open Europe one is the only side by side presentation I could find, downloaded a while ago.

    I have nothing to do with Libertas. I was worried about that.

    citizensimon.blogspot.com makes that very, very, very clear


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    #29
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Scofflaw, just want to be clear, I found the Bonde link myself, he contacted me.

    The Open Europe one is the only side by side presentation I could find, downloaded a while ago.

    I have nothing to do with Libertas. I was worried about that.

    citizensimon.blogspot.com makes that very, very, very clear

    I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were involved with Libertas - apologies if it came across that way! No, I'm just making the point that Bonde and OpenEurope are both involved with Libertas - Bonde is one of their 'mentors' and a couple of their UK candidates are actually OpenEurope people.

    The OpenEurope comparative would be more use if it were a comparison of Nice and Lisbon. The question of whether Lisbon is like the Constitution is irrelevant except as a political scoring point.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #30
    Zuiderzee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    S'cool dude, just a little bit concerned about the whole birds of a feather thing.
    Probably too concerned.

    I doing the blog because I am really concerned about this treaty/constitution being rammed through, by just us?
    Does not make sense to me.

    Its just a wierd deja vu feeling, the No to Nice syndrome and the whole Justin Barrett affair back in 2001 feels like its been set up again with Libertas !
    Its just that with the whole pan European thing that Declan Ganley really needs to be very cautious about every single connection he makes.

    But other than the people.ie website is there any other kind of broad base viewpoint opposed to Lisbon that anyone can advise me to take a look at?

    On Facebook, a lot of the groups that were against the Lisbon Treaty seemed to be tied in with UKIP at best, the occasional New World Order Zeitgeist in the middle and pan european BNP/NF types at worst!!!!!!


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    #31
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    S'cool dude, just a little bit concerned about the whole birds of a feather thing.
    Probably too concerned.

    I doing the blog because I am really concerned about this treaty/constitution being rammed through, by just us?
    Does not make sense to me.

    Its just a wierd deja vu feeling, the No to Nice syndrome and the whole Justin Barrett affair back in 2001 feels like its been set up again with Libertas !
    Its just that with the whole pan European thing that Declan Ganley really needs to be very cautious about every single connection he makes.

    But other than the people.ie website is there any other kind of broad base viewpoint opposed to Lisbon that anyone can advise me to take a look at?

    On Facebook, a lot of the groups that were against the Lisbon Treaty seemed to be tied in with UKIP at best, the occasional New World Order Zeitgeist in the middle and pan european BNP/NF types at worst!!!!!!


    There you go again attacking the No side instead of reading the treaty.



    Sign the act of Union no thanks


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