Perceived IT skills shortage

Arcee · 24-04-2009 11:26am

Yeah, I'm fed up reading about all the IT jobs out there too. Just because there are jobs advertised in Google, eBay etc doesn't mean they are IT jobs. It seems that customer service, HR and finance jobs in these companies are falling into the category of "IT".

It's intensely annoying to read the (obviously thrown-together with no research) articles about it in the papers and even worse when your mates think it's true and aare wondering why you don't have a job yet if there's so many of them out there :mad:

ixoy · 24-04-2009 11:29am

I can't believe this one either. I know people with multiple years experience in Java for example and they can't get a job at the moment. I also know people with other skillsets and they can't get work. The 5k jobs - I'd love to see it backed up with some serious analysis of their data.

AARRRGH · 24-04-2009 11:30am

You really can't believe anything the media or the 'experts' say anymore. Vested interests control everything these days.

It's ****ed.

Webmonkey · 24-04-2009 11:55am

LoLth wrote: »

Havign said that, i worked in one company where the Network Engineer was employed on the back of a CCNP and a load of experience in a routing heavy environment. Somewhere aroudn the middle of his second week he asked me (who had nothing to do with Cisco kit) to show him how to telnet to a router.....

He must have bs'd or something about having a CCNP, because Cisco are fairly serious with their exams and a pass mark is generally up towards 80%. The CCNA exam is difficult enough not to mind CCNP. With CCNP you can do much more than telnet to a router! :pac:

Mena · 24-04-2009 12:01pm

Webmonkey wrote: »

He must have bs'd or something about having a CCNP, because Cisco are fairly serious with their exams and a pass mark is generally up towards 80%. The CCNA exam is difficult enough not to mind CCNP. With CCNP you can do much more than telnet to a router! :pac:

Ah now these exams are generally easy to pass what with all the "braindumps" on the net. Can't trust them anymore either. I need to see qualifications, years of experience and certifiable, reliable references before I let them through the door these days.

MysticalRain · 24-04-2009 12:04pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

The 'vacancy' figures are taken from the various jobsites; in other words, at least 95% of the vacancies are with agencies, so most likely are duplicates or fake job adverts to attract CVs.

The main problem is most people who study computer science in college really should have picked a different subject. We are churning out people who don't really like computers, can't program, and in general are technically crap.

We have to look abroad for a lot of our employees as it is so hard to get decent, skilled people in Ireland. This isn't because people don't want to study computer science anymore, it's because most of the people we interview clearly have no interest in IT.

For example, someone who's hobby is writing little applications or working on open source projects - they are one in a million. And they're the type of people you want to hire.

Well if you're limiting yourself to those kinds graduates who fall into the "one in a million" category then of course you're always going to be short of people. Employers need to play their part as well. I think most newly minted graduates are not going to be decent programmers right out of the box without some kind of training and mentoring. Those that don't are very rare breed, and are probably more interested in starting their own business than becoming employees themselves. The trouble is most Irish employers want an awful lot in return for giving very little.

doolox · 24-04-2009 12:09pm

I did an Information technology course years ago and got as far as diploma in it.
When I went for degree I couldn't do the programming and fell at the final, failing computer science ( programming a game simulator in LISP.....) twice.
Unfortunately I am unemployed at the moment, just finishing a FAS course in Industrial Automation which will not get me into a job as I do not have the necessary maintenance experience to secure the few jobs available at the moment.
With the recent job losses in SR technics, Dell,Xylinx, and others I am under no illusions how long it will take me to get any job in this present climate.
I have 28 years experience in technical roles in electronics since I started work and none of it counts for anything in the present economic set-up.
Any attempt to break into another career path is difficult as I am 50 yrs old and have only 10-15 years payback if I take up any degree programme, most degrees taking 4 years to do.
Any job out there tends to be minimum wage or a little over and I am under no illusion as to how intensive and difficult they will be, having seen how badly contract cleaners and caterers and the likes are treated in this country by their "superiors".
There was a time when low-paid jobs were at least easy to do and not that demanding but those days are long gone when you are competing with those people with no social welfare net to rely on and working flat out for the next meal........
Every area of work I can think of, taxi, bar work etc is heavily oversubscribed and very few are making a decent living out of it.
Construction, DIY, handyman etc are all dried up.
Pizza delivery hardly pays for the fuel and running costs of the car employed but the people doing it do not realise the true maintenance and running costs of their cars and get out of it when the repair bills and NCT test time comes around.
Also insurance is extra when using your car for business, do they know this and pay the extra? Does the Pizza company know or care?
I am looking at doing an apprenticeship in electrical trades at the moment as all the jobs I am looking at require this rather than diploma but there are very few chances out there for a man of fifty...................
People I have spoken to in the trade say you are lucky if the company you get the apprenticeship with keeps you on for the required 4 years and many have to repeat 1st and 2nd yr with a new company sevaral times and do not get the necessary OTJ training. Also I have heard that the FAS element can vary in quality but find this hard to reconcile with my own experience with FAS so far which has been excellent. My fear is without hearing both sides to the story there may have been contributing factors to the other peoples bad experiences with apprenticeships in not be able to do the job properly or learn effectively and they might be tending to blame the system etc....
At the moment I am in regular contact with fully trained electrician who is a FAS instructor doing the Industrial Automation course with me and he plans to teach it when he completes it soon.
I will have to see what opportunities are out there but I fear it will take a long time.

AARRRGH · 24-04-2009 12:13pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Well if you're limiting yourself to those kinds graduates who fall into the "one in a million" category then of course you're always going to be short of people. Employers need to play their part as well. I think most newly minted graduates are not going to be decent programmers right out of the box without some kind of training and mentoring. Those that don't are very rare breed, and are probably more interested in starting their own business than becoming employees themselves. The trouble is most Irish employers want an awful lot in return for giving very little.

No, my point is those people shouldn't be one in a million. If you had a genuine interest in IT you would - at least every now and then - write a program for fun.

The fact of the matter is nearly every IT graduate has a passable interest in IT. They are not the type of people you want to hire. Do you know what I mean?

Regarding your comment that employers should 'mentor' or 'train' graduates. I totally disagree. Employers are businesses. It is not their place to help you get some skills you could probably teach yourself.

Also, IT employees are well paid. It's not as if new graduates start on pennies.

Webmonkey · 24-04-2009 12:18pm

Mena wrote: »

Ah now these exams are generally easy to pass what with all the "braindumps" on the net. Can't trust them anymore either. I need to see qualifications, years of experience and certifiable, reliable references before I let them through the door these days.

I don't know. The exam is full of lab simulations that require you to know what you doing. It isn't just questions. I wouldn't think it be the easiest exam to pass anyways.

hobochris · 24-04-2009 12:24pm

I think there needs to be a closer relationship between companies and colleges.. where companies can let the colleges know whats in demand more, get companies to suggest project idea's and see the results from students etc.. that way good grads Don't get tied down by this flawed system as companies will be able to see who is good etc.. and hire accordingly rather then assume every graduate knows nothing and wont hire without experience.

Boskowski · 24-04-2009 12:31pm

pwd wrote: »

The number of them who come out with high honours thanks to good memories devalues the degrees as a whole.

That seems to be a problem all round. Correct me if I'm wrong but by talking to the young people in the family (I'm not Irish myself so no first hand experience) I get the impression you can get a top notch leaving cert if you're very good at learning off or else if you're not you put in the hours and do the same. Same seems to be valid for some college/university courses. Thats not exactly a skill based education system.

Milkey Bar Kid · 24-04-2009 12:36pm

Its not about the I.T shortage. Its about IT people not having a second language . All the I.T support jobs are the jobs supporting other countries. I work in I.T and the company I work for are looking for people who Speak German. French . Dutch .Italian.

ucdperson · 24-04-2009 12:43pm

I think there needs to be a closer relationship between companies and colleges.. where companies can let the colleges know whats in demand more, get companies to suggest project idea's and see the results from students etc.. that way good grads

I fully agree. But as someone on the university end we don't find it easy to get companies to engage. The industry complains about a lack of IT skills and seems to expect that the education sector will sort it out. But there is a limited understanding among students of the exact structure of the vacancies and the skill set needed to fill them and the type of careers that would result. As you say each employer is a business and does their own thing to try and earn a crust, but there needs to be some overall picture of what is happening if universities are to provide courses that address skill needs and for students to understand why they should choose these courses.

Shzm · 24-04-2009 12:43pm

It's absolutely bollocks trying to find a job in IT at the moment, half the jobs seem to be fake as the same ones are being posted every day endlessly (even the ones marked as URGENT!!.. ), or as the poster above mentions, require another language just to do support work.

MysticalRain · 24-04-2009 12:50pm

No, my point is those people shouldn't be one in a million. If you had a genuine interest in IT you would - at least every now and then - write a program for fun.

The fact of the matter is nearly every IT graduate has a passable interest in IT. They are not the type of people you want to hire. Do you know what I mean?

Oh I definitely know the kind of people you're referring to. I think programming is more of a vocation than "just a job". If you don't have a genuine love of it, then you're not going to be good at it. But like I said, those people are always going to be a rare breed. It's like asking for a civil engineer who enjoys building bridges or tunnels in his spare time. Or a teacher who enjoys teaching kids for free in his spare time.

Of course there is more to IT than programming. You don't have to be a genius to fix desktop PCs or servers. I can't really understand why employers are bleating about not being able to find enough people to do those jobs.

Regarding your comment that employers should 'mentor' or 'train' graduates. I totally disagree. Employers are businesses. It is not their place to help you get some skills you could probably teach yourself.

Also, IT employees are well paid. It's not as if new graduates start on pennies.

Well you get what you pay for. If you don't invest much resources in an employee, then you're not going to get as much out of them.

I knew plenty of people who started on pennies. I think IT used to be well-paid up until the dotcom bubble. But salaries have been dropping since then, and job security is precarious to say the least in a climate where your high-tech programming job can easily be outsourced to India. It's no wonder school leavers abandoned IT as a career choice. Although supposedly "safe" careers like architecture and the legal profession proved to be equally insecure.

Sea08 · 24-04-2009 3:12pm

I have worked in Microsoft and passed the interview technique "admittedly it was only for a intern role" but I found it pretty eye opening compared to other interviews I've been too. They asked my to solve algorithms and tried different ways of determining if I was suitable to the role, it was pretty in depth and they then had a second HR type interview which was way harder.

I find most listing for jobs to be ridiculous in the requirements listed, they consistently list 3 to 4 programming languages and 3+ years of experience, and then have some new fashionable software development process and if you don't meet them all they don't even give you a call. Like I have your main programming language and have the experience, I'm sure I can pick up bloody Agile development as I go.

Webmonkey · 24-04-2009 3:17pm

Sea08 wrote: »

I have worked in Microsoft and passed the interview technique "admittedly it was only for a intern role" but I found it pretty eye opening compared to other interviews I've been too. They asked my to solve algorithms and tried different ways of determining if I was suitable to the role, it was pretty in depth and they then had a second HR type interview which was way harder.

I find most listing for jobs to be ridiculous in the requirements listed, they consistently list 3 to 4 programming languages and 3+ years of experience, and then have some new fashionable software development process and if you don't meet them all they don't even give you a call. Like I have your main programming language and have the experience, I'm sure I can pick up bloody Agile development as I go.

Yeah these agile process's should be learned manually in experience. Useful to know what they all about first before going in but most computer courses cover this.

I had a friend that applied for a job, then they replied back with a nasty comment saying "Please read the experience section in future".

Disgrace

Sea08 · 24-04-2009 3:17pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

No, my point is those people shouldn't be one in a million. If you had a genuine interest in IT you would - at least every now and then - write a program for fun.

The fact of the matter is nearly every IT graduate has a passable interest in IT. They are not the type of people you want to hire. Do you know what I mean?

Regarding your comment that employers should 'mentor' or 'train' graduates. I totally disagree. Employers are businesses. It is not their place to help you get some skills you could probably teach yourself.

Also, IT employees are well paid. It's not as if new graduates start on pennies.

I would rather instead say if you have a genuine interest in programming you should write a program or two in your spare time.

IT is more than just programming, but I do agree with your point.

gnxx · 24-04-2009 8:24pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

No, my point is those people shouldn't be one in a million. If you had a genuine interest in IT you would - at least every now and then - write a program for fun.

The fact of the matter is nearly every IT graduate has a passable interest in IT. They are not the type of people you want to hire. Do you know what I mean?

Regarding your comment that employers should 'mentor' or 'train' graduates. I totally disagree. Employers are businesses. It is not their place to help you get some skills you could probably teach yourself.

Also, IT employees are well paid. It's not as if new graduates start on pennies.

You are spot on here.

From a small company perspective, I like to hire these people. The people that you need to throw out of the office at 9:00PM because they are trying to get something complex to work and have lost all track of time. The people that given a screwdriver will build their own machine. The people that can figure out a firewall that has chinese set as the default language. Very very rare these days. I think that you start learning this stuff from childhood rather than at college.

On the downside, trying to get these people to work in a structured environment can be a nightmare.

Qualifications are meaningful for large companies. Personally, I have no idea what any of our employees are qualified in.

I disagree with you though on training employees. Certainly the low-level details can be found on the Internet or in a book. However, acting as a mentor to a young employee allows them to see the bigger picture. How else will they learn the company song

Webmonkey · 24-04-2009 9:18pm

gnxx wrote: »

You are spot on here.

From a small company perspective, I like to hire these people. The people that you need to throw out of the office at 9:00PM because they are trying to get something complex to work and have lost all track of time. The people that given a screwdriver will build their own machine. The people that can figure out a firewall that has chinese set as the default language. Very very rare these days. I think that you start learning this stuff from childhood rather than at college.

On the downside, trying to get these people to work in a structured environment can be a nightmare.

Qualifications are meaningful for large companies. Personally, I have no idea what any of our employees are qualified in.

I disagree with you though on training employees. Certainly the low-level details can be found on the Internet or in a book. However, acting as a mentor to a young employee allows them to see the bigger picture. How else will they learn the company song

I'm one of those people, employ me! :pac:

Stheno · 24-04-2009 11:47pm

gnxx wrote: »

You are spot on here.

From a small company perspective, I like to hire these people. The people that you need to throw out of the office at 9:00PM because they are trying to get something complex to work and have lost all track of time. The people that given a screwdriver will build their own machine. The people that can figure out a firewall that has chinese set as the default language. Very very rare these days. I think that you start learning this stuff from childhood rather than at college.

I know a few of those people

all of them currently employed, and often sent home early on a day after they've worked half the night on just such an issue. Great people to work with.

And if you are one of those people, then work is simply great great fun, you get to deal with some dross, but then you essentially get paid for a hobby you love, i.e. figuring stuff out, albeit in a formal environment which usually has deadlines!

On the downside, trying to get these people to work in a structured environment can be a nightmare.

I'd disagree there to be honest, good structure, clear communication, and no micro management usually gets the best out of that type. Unless they are the pretty rare ones who like to jump up and down screaming out their frustration in the middle of a large work area.

Qualifications are meaningful for large companies. Personally, I have no idea what any of our employees are qualified in.

Agreed, experience in most cases in IT is what defines people's ability.

I disagree with you though on training employees. Certainly the low-level details can be found on the Internet or in a book. However, acting as a mentor to a young employee allows them to see the bigger picture. How else will they learn the company song

+1

As for jobs in IT, the company I work for are currently hiring level 2 and 3 (3 being architect/design level) MS/VM engineers, we've had 30 c.v.'s of which two are level 3. Same with SQL. There are plenty of candidates out there, who due to the boom years, think they are better qualified/capable than they are, and contract rates have plummeted by up to 30% in some cases. On the flip side I know plenty of IT managers trying to manage budgets that have shrunk by up to 20% overall on OPEX and increase the size of their support teams by up to 40%, either way it's a tough call. Good Project Managers are also thin on the ground imo.

For those at entry level, it must be truly awful.

Webmonkey wrote: »

I'm one of those people, employ me! :pac:

Good luck searching

Peanut · 25-04-2009 2:40am

hobochris wrote: »

I think there needs to be a closer relationship between companies and colleges..

I think there is a danger in this, and I've seen it happening over the past 10 years where large universities have made pledges to get into bed with business.

The risk is that we lose sight of innovation and research... Let's face it, Ireland was never a real contender to compete with west coast US.
Sure, some large tech companies here do real research and product development, but a majority do not.

Now, if most of the business needs of these companies, in Ireland, involve peripheral IT activities, i.e. support, localisation etc., but the core development of the products is being done in California, what happens?

We feed more graduates into the system with these non-core skills. Great, they're now qualified for the current business needs, but we shut ourselves off from developing more high-quality, indigenous startups which would probably be useful to have.

T.G Catter · 25-04-2009 4:19pm

Milkey Bar Kid wrote: »

Its not about the I.T shortage. Its about IT people not having a second language . All the I.T support jobs are the jobs supporting other countries. I work in I.T and the company I work for are looking for people who Speak German. French . Dutch .Italian.

This was my initial reaction when I heard this "5000 IT jobs to fill" rubbish.
Many of these jobs are tech support + language. I see these jobs all over the recruitment sites.
As for Google they could at least make an effort in hiring some Irish grads, what with the tax breaks they get for being here. Nothing but non-nationals and a few Dublin people working there - joke. Joke of a recruitment process also.

I went into an empty FAS centre this week about getting possible funding to do a ICT skills course to become a trainer in web dev and design, to give back to the smart economy and maybe train people to fill these "5000 jobs", now that I have some career "downtime".
After discussing what I do for a career, my skill s etc. (I have a degree in multimedia and 4 years commercial experience.)
I was asked "do I have a computer at home and that I should enroll in their e-college web design course".

I spoke to an absolute dinosaur of a woman(Mary, 50+), who is so out of touch with young people, uninspiring and to be honest a bit dumb.
She repeated to me 3 times "everyone is in the same boat". Not once did she pull up the FAS local jobs section to see if there were any jobs around or suggest maybe going out on my own.
It just seems you are rewarded for not working, I can't see why anyone would be bothered working with being able to pick up the dole, rent relief and getting to do FAS courses.

So it's the stupid leading the stupid I think in a lot of these FAS offices. Dail Eireann and these Govt bodies are just like Jurassic Park.
I'm trying to do a bit of freelance and nixers to tie me over.
I've never been more qualified and for the first time in job applications I've yet to hear back about any of them.

dave-higgz · 26-04-2009 10:52pm

I'm 16 and I'm currently in Transition year. I have a keen interest in computers and I'm usually the guy who solves most of our school's computer cock-ups!
I am considering studying computer science in college and the supposed list of vacancies is an overwhelming argument for me to become a programmer or engineer in IT.
However in 10 years things could be very different. What is the likely-hood that there'll be big lists of jobs in the future. Could this recession crush computer science related jobs?

Webmonkey · 27-04-2009 12:01am

I doubt it will. Computer jobs will always be around, the problem is getting in the door and getting experience. Go do computers if you've an interest.

jmayo · 27-04-2009 1:04pm

Just few comments on topic.
Half the times the stats quoted are probably gathered lazily by researcher who trawls a few websites, adds a bunch of numbers and comes back with an arbitary figure.
Then they find a few instacnes to supposedly back up this value and hey presto.

IMHO Cisco would have been seen as one of the better industry's certifications since it wasn't memorised tests like some others.

As stated by few posters they are looking for employees who are basically what the unwashed would describe as "nerds", who are willing to work long hours just to solve issues.
It is fine looking for that and that mentality may be rewarded in multinationals, but I often found Irish employers often take the mickey and you are as well rewarded as the ones who bluff and ass lick their way.
Also after 2001 Irish employers were often looking for employees that had experience in everything from basic OS, basic programming right across to knowing the programming of the telemetry system used by Ferrari F1 cars, yet they were offering 30k.

Added to this the quality of IT recruitment firms in this country has been absolutely scandalous and there lack of professionalism added to them not having a clue about the industry often only made matters worse in the hiring of staff.

Regarding quality of graduates, IMHO quality was sacrificed in the early-mid 90s when huge numbers of courses were created to meet the needs of the burgeoning celtic tiger. People who had no appitude ended up doing some computer related course or other and then often through some miracle or other they qualified and entered industry.

Owen101 · 27-04-2009 3:28pm

dave-higgz wrote: »

I'm 16 and I'm currently in Transition year. I have a keen interest in computers and I'm usually the guy who solves most of our school's computer cock-ups!
I am considering studying computer science in college and the supposed list of vacancies is an overwhelming argument for me to become a programmer or engineer in IT.
However in 10 years things could be very different. What is the likely-hood that there'll be big lists of jobs in the future. Could this recession crush computer science related jobs?

Yes there's, or there will be, jobs (in this case 5000+). But you wont be able to get any of them!

Thats the point being made here.

MysticalRain · 27-04-2009 4:19pm

dave-higgz wrote: »

I'm 16 and I'm currently in Transition year. I have a keen interest in computers and I'm usually the guy who solves most of our school's computer cock-ups!
I am considering studying computer science in college and the supposed list of vacancies is an overwhelming argument for me to become a programmer or engineer in IT.
However in 10 years things could be very different. What is the likely-hood that there'll be big lists of jobs in the future. Could this recession crush computer science related jobs?

Personally, I would advise you to steer clear of the industry. At least not unless you happen to have an overwhelming love of computers. Job security is virtually nonexistent, the hours are long, salaries have been declining, and it's extremely difficult for graduates to get their foot in the door. There will always be jobs, but the quality and quantity is not as good as it used to be back in the boom times. The IT industry has matured to the point where computers are basically a low cost commodity and IT in many companies is viewed more as a cost center than a strategic asset. You'll never be rich unless you plan on starting your own business.

If you do plan on going down the IT route, make sure to explore as many different areas of IT as possible to figure out what you want to do. Try your hand at web design, a bit of programming, and tinkering with networks etc. You'll find out very quickly if you have an aptitude for web design or programming. Also try to focus on developing language skills. Jobs in call centers that require language skills are one of the few easy routes into the profession for graduates.

DublinWriter · 27-04-2009 8:00pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Personally, I would advise you to steer clear of the industry.

+1

As someone with 20 years experience, the whole sector has been going down the pan since 2002.

Basically, these scaremongering stories about shortage of IT people are put around by the big Universities in the face of dwindling applicants for IT courses.

Webmonkey · 27-04-2009 8:03pm

If you have a great interest and passion in computers, I would still do it. If you are good enough, you'll get places alright but the problem is the majority want to just pass courses and see it as a job.Then again I'm quite young and a lot to learn but I'm determined to make my qualification worth while.

Perceived IT skills shortage

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