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god?

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  • #152
    challengemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Non belief causes recessions. There you have it folks.

    KILL THE ATHIESTS. CRUCIFY THEM ALL.....wait, shi.... I'm a.....

    *shuts up*


  • #153
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    That post made as much sense as if the poster had head rolled the keyboard tbh!


  • #154
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    I hate these kindof debates... they piss me of fsr


  • #155
    alegrabaroque
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭alegrabaroque


    lol sorry your right not very clear when I read it back lol People have changed obviously and their more materialistic and greedy because they have nothing else. Maybe the decline of faith has had an economic impact.They made money their god.


  • #156
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,062 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    alegrabaroque wrote: »
    lol sorry your right not very clear when I read it back lol People have changed obviously and their more materialistic and greedy because they have nothing else. Maybe the decline of faith has had an economic impact.They made money their god.

    Point #1: you're (not your), they're (not their), etc

    Point #2: being an atheist does not automatically make somebody greedy or materialistic, while being a practicing Catholic does not preclude an individual from displaying these traits.

    Point #3: do you honestly believe this "decline of faith" is the cause of a world-wide financial crisis, of which the root causes appear far more likely to have grown from poor lending practices and false valuations by banking executives?

    Cop on, TBH.


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  • #157
    Jesus Juice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Jesus Juice


    alegrabaroque wrote: »
    lol sorry your right not very clear when I read it back lol People have changed obviously and their more materialistic and greedy because they have nothing else. Maybe the decline of faith has had an economic impact.They made money their god.
    I dont need anything else just because I dont believe in what you do.Very holier than thou attitude dont ya think?:rolleyes:

    How is an economy collapsing have to do with believing in any way shape or form??


  • #158
    challengemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Or....you know...maybe people just don't believe in things that have no factual evidence to back them up?

    Decline in faith has nothing to do with the recession, and to even think so is....more stupid than I consider christians to be already. Decline in faith has to do with education. People stop believing in fairy tales when they've got a bit of common sense and education. Even the definition of the word should tell you that.

    Faith (n): Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

    It's not logical. It's not factual... Neither are the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. And to be honest, your arguement also lacks logic and facts.


  • #159
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    challengemaster wrote: »
    Or....you know...maybe people just don't believe in things that have no factual evidence to back them up?

    There is evidence to indicate that God is likely to exist. If you get some books of Christian apologetics there is actually a very good case for it. You can choose to remain closed minded either, I'm merely informing you that what you are saying isn't exactly sure.

    There isn't absolute proof but there is evidence.

    Evidence is different from proof. If I see a dead body with an item of clothing beside it, can I conclude that the owner of said item of clothing may have murdered the individual? Yes, I can, and it would be pretty good evidence. However does this prove it? No. Of course not.

    Just want to wish you all a happy Easter. Christ is risen, and we can have new life in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17) :)


  • #160
    alegrabaroque
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭alegrabaroque


    Not actually catholic guys at all!lol! Isn`t excessive lending becuase people are greedy and materialistic? If I just thought this was it - what I see what I feel and then nothing - I`m just thinking how I would behave. All that would be important would be what I have, here and now, so damn right I`d be greedy and materialistic because there is nothing else.


  • #161
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Friends? Love? Happiness?


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  • #162
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Jakkass wrote: »
    There is evidence to indicate that God is likely to exist. If you get some books of Christian apologetics there is actually a very good case for it. You can choose to remain closed minded either, I'm merely informing you that what you are saying isn't exactly sure.

    No, there is not. There is a 15,000 post + thread pointing out the insanity, ad nausium, that is Christian apologetics and creationism. This has been pointed out so many times yet ye continue to ignore it.
    Evidence is different from proof. If I see a dead body with an item of clothing beside it, can I conclude that the owner of said item of clothing may have murdered the individual? Yes, I can, and it would be pretty good evidence. However does this prove it? No. Of course not.

    Just want to wish you all a happy Easter. Christ is risen, and we can have new life in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17) :)

    Once again this has been pointed out to you so many times I wonder if you read anybodies posts? Nothing in science can ever be proven. There is only failure to fit a hypothesis to the evidence. Mathematics is the only field where there is an actual requirement for proof.

    Back on Topic, when I was in school I remember the class being asked if they believed in God in RE class. Very few didn't but I was absolutely shocked by a few of those who did believe. These were some of the most horrible, cruel, selfish people I have ever come across. People who went out of their way to make the lives of others around them a misery on a daily basis.

    I've since concluded that it's likely that they believed without thought or question. They simply do as their parents did. I'd say that can be applied to many young atheists too.


  • #163
    alegrabaroque
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭alegrabaroque


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Friends? Love? Happiness?[/quote

    Biological Chemical reactions...what difference does it make? Without something else there is only science? Don`t these miracles prove there is something else...People are a wonderful, multifacited miracle so is love and happiness. Do people who don`t believe in anything not see the miracle in these things? If I thought it was all about me, there was nothing outside myself, everything else would be a reflexion of that - who I picked as friends, the people I love and what I derived happiness from.


  • #164
    cocoa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    the desire for material goods can be lumped into the same category. You seemed to think that people without faith would be empty, have nothing but materialism in their lives, but this is so very far from the truth... If anything it means they have more, because they can concentrate on the actual, on the people around them and what's important to them, rather than worrying about the fanciful, some demon looking over their shoulder.


  • #165
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Ok, you're going to have to explain what you mean more clearly, read over your posts before you hit submit and make sure they make sense.

    Every emotion we feel is a chemical reaction, yes. That is a miracle in itself, it's just not the product of anything supernatural.

    Why not believing that we are the product of something supernatural makes us greedy and materialistic I don't know....


  • #166
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    5uspect wrote: »
    that is Christian apologetics and creationism.

    They aren't the same. Thanks for proving that you haven't read any.


  • #167
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Its no different to creationism. Its just less tacky.
    It is an a priori attempt to prove a presupposed and unfounded position by cherry picking or misrepresenting evidence that suits the conclusion that Christianity is correct. It cannot move beyond the idea that god exists and therefore is pure rubbish.

    You should never go into rational, objective questioning with your conclusion already written.


  • #168
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    You're showing me that you actually haven't read any now. Theres different types, and yes there are some apologists for creationism, however most apologetics surrounds Christianity in general. That's what I am interested in. For example, I don't think C.S Lewis at any point in his Mere Christianity pointed to a 7 day creation. As such it leaves it open to all Christians to find inspiration from it. Likewise with Miracles or as far as I have read.

    You've basically declared that you don't care for any Christian explanation and you would prefer to stick your head in the sand, and of course badmouth any Christian explanation that can be offered to you before you read it.

    Why would people "go beyond" defence of God if that is the entire point of what they are trying to do. It's like saying that Dawkins should go beyond his atheism, and see that there is a God there and stop arguing? It's a ridiculous point.


  • #169
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Considering you endorse him so much, I'm actually quite interested in reading some CS Lewis now.

    That said, I suspect I will read him in a similar mindset to how you'd read something like Dawkins, i.e. looking for flaws as opposed to appreciating their general argument.

    I'm coming around to the idea that the Atheist and Christian mindsets are too different for there to be a proper debate between the two.


  • #170
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You're showing me that you actually haven't read any now. Theres different types, and yes there are some apologists for creationism, however most apologetics surrounds Christianity in general. That's what I am interested in. For example, I don't think C.S Lewis at any point in his Mere Christianity pointed to a 7 day creation. As such it leaves it open to all Christians to find inspiration from it. Likewise with Miracles or as far as I have read.

    You've basically declared that you don't care for any Christian explanation and you would prefer to stick your head in the sand, and of course badmouth any Christian explanation that can be offered to you before you read it.

    Why would people "go beyond" defence of God if that is the entire point of what they are trying to do. It's like saying that Dawkins should go beyond his atheism, and see that there is a God there and stop arguing? It's a ridiculous point.

    I'm not sticking my head anywhere, thanks.
    They are starting out with a fully formed conclusion, not a hypothesis.
    "There is a God and this evidence may show how."

    It doesn't matter if they're Christians, creationists, communists, environmentalists, nutritionists, or atheists. If you start with a conclusion then you may as well not bother. Its not an explanation if it doesn't provide any novel information. Simply saying if you consider "so and so, then God (of a certain type) may exist" doesn't answer anything. You're shifting the problem out of the frame.

    Similarly by saying vegetables are healthy because they're natural.
    or
    God doesn't exist because that's just a retarded idea, are equally pointless.

    Dawkins admits that there may well be a god. He has to. No one can say otherwise because of the manner in which the idea of god is framed. But you cannot presuppose your conclusion and then look for evidence to prop it up.

    This is the point I'm making and I'll repeat it again. You cannot make a priori conclusions and then fit the evidence to them. No matter how much you love and cherish your ideas they much be subject to change or discard with all the evidence.


  • #171
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    That said, I suspect I will read him in a similar mindset to how you'd read something like Dawkins, i.e. looking for flaws as opposed to appreciating their general argument.

    I actually read Dawkins, and I found his assessments of the 1 - 7 scale rather interesting. Some stuff in the God Delusion is good, I'm not going to lie to you. I read through it, and I did even agree with him on some issues. The flaws became quite obvious to me though, when he started talking about the Gospels, and extra-canonical scripture, which I have a bit of knowledge on, likewise I found most of his examples weren't concerning moderates but people who distort religion.

    I can even recommend the best edition of the C.S Lewis series:
    http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780061208492/The-Complete-C.-S.-Lewis-Signature-Classics


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  • #172
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Tbh, I haven't read Dawkins myself. I think when making an argument for the non-existence of God, religion itself should not come into it. Debates between Christians and Atheists based on biblical passages are fundamentally flawed.


  • #173
    SteveDon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭SteveDon


    I voted no, because god is bull****

    I cant stand anyone that believes in god, like seriously in this day of age how could you be so retarded to think that there is one.

    People that believe in God are holding this race back from progressing as they are just a remnant of our ill informed past.

    Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Hindus
    They are all a bunch of cocks!


  • #174
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    alegrabaroque wrote: »
    Biological Chemical reactions...what difference does it make? Without something else there is only science? Don`t these miracles prove there is something else...
    Eh....no. I don't believe in miracles, so why would they prove anything?
    People are a wonderful, multifacited miracle so is love and happiness.

    Good grief.
    No offence but that sounds ridiculously cheesy when you say it out loud.

    Unless I'm picking you up incorrectly, you seem to be implying that greed and materialism go hand in hand ith atheism. And that's...well, a pile of crap tbh.

    As I've said before I'm not an atheist - I still do believe that there is something out there, but tbh I'm now so apathetic towards religion in general that I'm not really that interested as to what that higher power might entail. If there's a God, grand. If not, grand.


  • #175
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    SteveDon wrote: »
    Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Hindus
    They are all a bunch of cocks!

    Infracted.

    Everybody read this and keep it mind (borrowed from Atheism/Agnostic forum charter)
    2. Respect those who do not share your beliefs (or lack thereof). Though many here will share certain atheist or agnostic views - it is not acceptable to ridicule the faith or beliefs of others. Something that would be seen as a direct insult in, say, the Christianity or Islam forums will be similarly treated here.

    Now play nicely, children.


  • #176
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    5uspect wrote: »
    This is the point I'm making and I'll repeat it again. You cannot make a priori conclusions and then fit the evidence to them. No matter how much you love and cherish your ideas they much be subject to change or discard with all the evidence.

    This is the issue with your reasoning though. You assume that Christians have a conclusion they want to find, and then just go looking for everything that supports it. However, surely to come to faith in the first place Christians have a reason in doing so? It wasn't just an act of me waking up and saying, "Ah Lord, I've left you to the side for a long time, and I want to give you a shot again. Just feel like it today, don't count on it for tomorrow."


  • #177
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is the issue with your reasoning though. You assume that Christians have a conclusion they want to find, and then just go looking for everything that supports it. However, surely to come to faith in the first place Christians have a reason in doing so?
    Actually, I often hear that I'm supposed to just "accept God" or "give God a chance". The message Christians preach is generally not one based on evidence or argument, but rather urging people to just give Christianity a try, usually accompanied by their own story of how believing in Christianity made them happier.

    The way I see it, people generally become Christians by trying it out and enjoying it. Be it for the nice deluded state (IMO), the sense of community or whatever. Once they're at that stage, their mind is geared towards Christianity being real, and they're going to fit evidence to their already-reached conclusion if they ever go and question it.

    To offer a balanced perspective, it's not all that different to an anti-Christian reading the bible and coming to a negative conclusion that they'd come to before they'd even opened the first page of Genesis.


  • #178
    STBR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭STBR


    This poll is totally reflecting the whole of Ireland's beliefs.

    I can also guarantee that if you explained to all the religious people what they were actually believing in, then the majority of them would stop.

    E.g. A Cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own father who can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood, and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, and will also remove an evil force from your soul that's present because a woman was convinced to eat from a magical tree by a talking snake.

    But going by this poll the majority have! :D

    And I can also say that not ONE person in my class believes there's a 'god'!

    It's gonna be a great generation! :D


  • #179
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    According to An File ive let this argument go on long enough.
    I admit it. I is God :D


  • #180
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Actually, I often hear that I'm supposed to just "accept God" or "give God a chance". The message Christians preach is generally not one based on evidence or argument, but rather urging people to just give Christianity a try, usually accompanied by their own story of how believing in Christianity made them happier.

    You need to have a reason to. It's fair enough if you do not know why when you are reading the Bible for yourself. However, when it comes down to accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that's a big decision, and it's not one that people turn back from if they are serious about it.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    The way I see it, people generally become Christians by trying it out and enjoying it. Be it for the nice deluded state (IMO), the sense of community or whatever. Once they're at that stage, their mind is geared towards Christianity being real, and they're going to fit evidence to their already-reached conclusion if they ever go and question it.

    Enjoying it isn't really what counts though. Sure there is spiritual fulfilment in Christianity, but there are trials and there will be temptations that you will have to deal with in your daily encounters in the world. The view of "enjoying" Christianity, is fair enough as long as you don't take it to extremes. We aren't here merely to enjoy ourselves. A teaching in some US churches has emerged called "The Prosperity Gospel" which is the idea that God will make you prosper in the world, and make you profitable.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    To offer a balanced perspective, it's not all that different to an anti-Christian reading the bible and coming to a negative conclusion that they'd come to before they'd even opened the first page of Genesis.

    Well, I think many people have a stigma against Christianity without knowing what it is. The Christianity I found in the Bible was more than the Church for me.


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  • #181
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is the issue with your reasoning though. You assume that Christians have a conclusion they want to find, and then just go looking for everything that supports it. However, surely to come to faith in the first place Christians have a reason in doing so? It wasn't just an act of me waking up and saying, "Ah Lord, I've left you to the side for a long time, and I want to give you a shot again. Just feel like it today, don't count on it for tomorrow."

    Isn't that conclusion often simply life after death? If you can substantiate any part of your particular faith then you somehow indirectly help prove life after death!

    I'm not certain about you and your fellow Christian posters on Boards. (I regard you as a separate species to your bog standard believer :) in that you take it very very seriously probably for more complex reasons). But in general I think most people believe because they would like to have the dream of heaven. They indulge Pascal's Wager because they have nothing to lose.

    Back to yourself. The reasons that you have become a devout Christian are likely complex. But the belief that there is evidence to support this position more than likely came after your decision to embrace religion. Your brief flirtation with creationism probably shows this search for evidence. Did you adopt your world view (based on some personal revelation etc) and then go in search for evidence or was there initial evidence that convinced you?


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