Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

micks · 01-03-2009 04:48PM

PHB wrote: »

In all fairness, Fabio and Rafael were bought like a year and a half ago, as was Possebon. Welbeck and Evans were coming through the youth team that is true though.

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The net spend isn't naive. It's just not entirely encompassing. It's just pointing out that the stupid argument we hear like 'but Benetiz has had to work on a budget', is, as anyone who actually listens to other posters, stupid.

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RE: Ruud and net spend. Some players were sold for Liverpool, some were sold from United. Owen, Murphy, baros and Cisse would have brought in close to 25 million. Liverpools total spend has been higher than United's, as has their total income in sales [obviously].

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Are any of these points not valid?

1. United and Liverpool have spent nearly the same amount of money in terms of net spend in the last 5 years...

Agreed but IMO different scale of task was required

PHB wrote: »

2. In those five years, United have, on average, bought less players for more money, while Liverpool have bought more players, and then sold them on, for less money.

Agreed but again because of the scale of replacements required by both

PHB wrote: »

3. At the point of takeover, United were in better shape than United in terms of squad. Ferdinand, Giggs, Scholes, Ronaldo, Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea are still around.
Liverpool just have Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard. Most would agree the 3 talents there are fairly similar, the difference there was simply the three squad players of Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea, and then Ronaldo.

Ferdinand - Carragher
Ronaldo - Gerrard
Neville - Hyypia

These would be comparable in term of value to team over last few years. But UTD have 5 squad players that each will play more than 10 games at least this season.
By comparing them with the like of lucas,babel,pennant,agger,Benayoun, who have had similar involvement in Liverpool's team to Utd's 5 but at a cost of 30-40 Million? That alone is a big deficit.

PHB wrote: »

4. The league positions however didn't massively reflect this difference, with United and Liverpool both failing to compete with Arsenal that year. The following two years, United couldn't compete in the league.

5. Both managers had to entirely rebuild the squad.

6. The two managers took difference approaches.

I think everyone agrees with those 6 points.
After that imo the transfer record speaks for itself..

You make it sound like Rafa simply chose the wrong way to go or bought badly?

PHB wrote: »

GK - Both had to buy a new keeper and both did, and both are fairly happy with it.
LB - Both had to get a new LB to replace the old one. Fergie bought Evra for 6.5 million. Benetiz has bought Dossena, Inusa, Aurélio. None of them has been as good.
CB - Both had to get a CB to partner their current one (Ferdinand/Carragher). United bought Vidic for 7.5 million. Liverpool have bought Agger and Sretkle. Vidic is better, but the other two are decent.
RB - United had Neville. Liverpool had Finnan. Both were very good. When their time came, United had Brown in waiting, and have since gotten Rafael for like 1 million. Liverpool have bought a few in this area, most notably Arbeleo, who is quality.
CM - United replaced all but Scholes. Liverpool replaced all but Gerrard. Both managers have done pretty well in this area.
RM - United already had Ronaldo. Liverpool had nobody decent.
LM - United had an aging Giggs, but nobody else. Liverpool had nobody decent.
United bought Nani, Park and now Tosic. Liverpool have bought so many wingers so less money and it hasn't worked out. [Although Reira is showing good signs]
Strikers - United bought 3 top quality strikers. Rooney, Berbatov and Saha. Liverpool bought a load of them for less money and it didnt work out. Both have spent similar net spends in this area. .

The First choice 11 is similar in quaility but for me the big difference is that Fergie is spending 18million (approx) on squad/fringe players Hargreaves(first team i know but lack of availability means not on team),Anderson,Nani while Raf has only been able to approach that figure with Torres and Keane.

PHB wrote: »

In nearly all areas, bar maybe CM, United shade it. With similar net spends. And similar enough starting positions. United defo had a better starting position, no doubt about it. But ultimately, and this is the real nuts and bolts of it, Benetiz's transfer policies haven't been as good as they should be. Whatever the reason, he's had 5 years to mould a squad and he has made just too many mistakes. Let's list them in terms of attackers and list Fergie's mistakes.

Rafa's certain mistakes: [Didn't include Babel or Lucas who the jury is still out on]
Keane
Crouch
Bellamy
Gonzalez
Pennant
Morientes

Fergie's mistakes:
Saha [although he did play a big role in one title win]

Personally, I think Benetiz's transfer record speaks for itself. There are lots of things that meant that he had a harder starting position, most if not all would accept that. But after that starting position, he had the same amount of money, and he has used it poorly.

Winners write history as the saying goes Utd will prob 3rd title in a row so it doesn't matter how they got there. But Anderson,Nani and Hargreaves for their fees could be counted as mistakes. Tevez was a masterstroke got a 30 million striker for 2 years for peanuts. The squad players already in place and the loan signing of Tevez is at least 50 million worth of players tha Fergie has had over Rafa in the last few years. But IMO Rafa will (if still at Liverpool) take a similar route to Fergie form this summer on. signing one or two 20 mill + players and hopefully the likes of Insua, Nemeth etc coming through instead of buying a player for 7 mill. Time will tell.

Boggles · 01-03-2009 04:59PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...

4 or 5, could you name them????

I can think of 2 mistakes which led to goals, I would take that every season from a keeper, all players make mistakes.

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 08:37AM

fish fingers wrote: »

Thats why Man utd won feck all with him

I think the arrival of Vidic and Evra made a huge difference to United. Imo letting Howard go to Everton was a mistake. While VDS is a solid goalkeeper, he is not as good as Howard imo, and also he does not have long left in his career.

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 09:24AM

On the subject of Rafa's transfers, its unfair to compare him to Ferguson at this point in time. The United youth system brings through players and those players are good enough to be used as squad players with the odd one from time to time breaking through. They did have that gifted youth team in the early nineties which provided a base for much of the success they have enjoyed over the last decade, the Nevilles, Beckham, Butt and Scholes all becoming big players at United.

But if you go back to when Ferguson first arrived at United and what went on at that time, there are a lot of similarities. United had a huge squad when Ferguson arrived and he still signed all the following before he won a League title. Now in this day and age that is not a huge amount of signings but back then it was considered ridiculous.

Viv Anderson
Brian McClair
Steve Bruce
Jim Leighton
Lee Sharpe
Mark Hughes
Mal Donaghy
Ralph Milne
Giuliano Miarana
Mike Phelan
Neill Webb
Brian Carey
Gary Pallister
Danny Wallace
Paul Ince
Les Sealey
Denis Irwin
Neil Whitworth
Andrei Kanchelskis
Peter Schmeichel
Paul Parker
Dion Dublin
Pat McGibbon
Eric Cantona

When you look at that list, the most important thing to note is the defensive players he signed who would go on to be the backbone of the team for quite some time. Bruce, Pallister, Irwin and Schmeichel all came along over that six year period. Paul Ince was another who was crucial to their first title but there are a lot of players on that list who did not work out for one reason or another. Towards the end of that list you see he signed two attacking players who did make a difference in Kanchelskis and Cantona and that to me was the key in them winning that first Premier League title.
Now compare that to Rafa Benitez. He certainly has a defense and has added Alonso and Mascherano in midfield and Torres up front. Basically he is pretty close to where United were at the start of the '90s.

I think its interesting that they both suffer from a lack of patience in one particular part of the pitch. Ferguson has a terrible record with goalkeepers with Schmeichel being a godsend to United after the disasters of Jim Leighton and Les Sealey, he sold Mark Bosnich too. I think Benitez is the same with forwards and its just a matter of him finding the missing pieces of the jigsaw to put Liverpool back on top.

kida · 02-03-2009 09:58AM

What trophies has Rafa one since the squad has been Rafatized. The CL and FA cup were both won with players he predominately inherited.

slingerz · 02-03-2009 11:23AM

Compare the matchday squads:

1. Reina v VDS
2. Arbeloa V Neville
3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick
7. Mascherano v Scholes
8. Riera v Giggs
9. Torres v Berbatov
10. Gerrard v Ronaldo
11. Kuyt V Rooney

12. Cavalieri V Foster
13. Dossena v Rafeal
14. Agger V Evans
15. Benyaoun V Nani
16. Lucas V Hargreaves
17. Babel V Anderson
18. N'Gog V Tevez

Hyypia V Brown
El Zhar V Tosic

United have O'Shea, Fabio, Welbeck, Gibson, Kuzachak all in reserve.

While the first 11's are pretty comparable until you get to the attacking talent and thats where only Gerrard and Torres can compare. On the bench players like Nani, Hargreaves, Anderson and Tevez all cost more than most Liverpool players.

Headshot · 02-03-2009 11:31AM

slingerz wrote: »

Compare the matchday squads:

1. Reina v VDS
2. Arbeloa V Neville
3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick
7. Mascherano v Scholes
8. Riera v Giggs
9. Torres v Berbatov
10. Gerrard v Ronaldo
11. Kuyt V Rooney

12. Cavalieri V Foster
13. Dossena v Rafeal
14. Agger V Evans
15. Benyaoun V Nani
16. Lucas V Hargreaves
17. Babel V Anderson
18. N'Gog V Tevez

Hyypia V Brown
El Zhar V Tosic

United have O'Shea, Fabio, Welbeck, Gibson, Kuzachak all in reserve.

While the first 11's are pretty comparable until you get to the attacking talent and thats where only Gerrard and Torres can compare. On the bench players like Nani, Hargreaves, Anderson and Tevez all cost more than most Liverpool players.

how can you compare Gerrard v Ronaldo both play totally different positions

and pretty comparable

3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick

utd wins there

and i had a laugh when i saw this Kuyt V Rooney
kuyt isnt a striker anymore tbh
when liverpool have this full strength team,kuyt would be on the right

7. Mascherano v Scholes

again totally different players

8. Riera v Giggs

should be Riera v park

tbh i could write more a your comparables but I dont have the patience

but thanks for the laugh

zing · 02-03-2009 11:35AM

PHB wrote: »

[ ... ]
5. Both managers had to entirely rebuild the squad.

6. The two managers took difference approaches.

I think everyone agrees with those 6 points.

[ ... ]
United defo had a better starting position, no doubt about it. But ultimately, and this is the real nuts and bolts of it, Benetiz's transfer policies haven't been as good as they should be. Whatever the reason, he's had 5 years to mould a squad and he has made just too many mistakes. Let's list them in terms of attackers and list Fergie's mistakes.

[ ... ]

Personally, I think Benetiz's transfer record speaks for itself. There are lots of things that meant that he had a harder starting position, most if not all would accept that. But after that starting position, he had the same amount of money, and he has used it poorly.

You're at least acknowledging the different starting positions but at the same time almost dismiss it but either way - you're not taking other factors into account.

Yes they both have overhauled their squads over the years and as you say they took different approaches to it but you also say it like there was a choice

Fergie started with a squad he was relatively comfortable with - or at the very least a squad he'd built up over the years which were playing his kind of football and knew what he wanted of them - and has had the luxury of being able to essentially tweak it a bit every year while having the full support of his board. He's literally been able to go - I need a new player for this position - go buy me X and it's happened. He's identified his main targets, his board have backed him and he's also been able to pick up some decent up & coming talents each year while he's at it.

Rafa on the other hand inherited a squad which pretty much most of us agree with - had way less quality through out, was aging in some cases or was largely just crap in others. That squad didn't afford him the luxury of being able to tweak here & there - it needed wholesale changes and I reckon most new managers coming into Liverpool at the time would have done the same (including Fergie/Mourinho/Wenger/etc..). Just about all new managers coming into a team do the same thing.

You've also must remember that Rafa was consistently told that there was big investment just around the corner and he'd be getting a decent budget then so for now just go sign a few interim players. People forget this but I think it is what has (very foolishly) largely dictated the clubs approach - not just the managers approach - to transfers pre takeover. Unfortunately though there was no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (wasn't even a bloody rainbow) and I can only see his hands being further tied until there is fresh investment in the club.

I fully agree that some of his buys have been poor but I also expect any other manager walking into that position would taken a fairly similar approach and made a bunch of mistakes too. We've all seen the type of players Rafa has tried but not been able to sign for whatever reason (the likes of Alves, Maluoda, Smiao, Aguero, etc..). There's even reportedly been deals where he's agreed pretty much everything with the selling club & player only for Liverpool/Parry & co. to have then come along and f#cked those deals up. Torres was one such deal where he'd arranged everything right down to having spoken to the player directly but thankfully the club weren't able to mess that one up. Things could have been so much different but that's all a case of whatifs. In fact I suspect things would have been very different if Owen hadn't left when he did but that's another whatif..

From the other thread and I've replied to it there but ..

PHB wrote:

Is there any doubt that Liverpool would be in a much better position if instead of buying Dossena, Keane and Riera, they bought Ashley Young for 35 million?

PHB While you make some valid points I can't help but read your posts on this matter and think that they've been written by either a utd or a chelsea fan - and over the next few years you'll be able to add city fans in there as well. A fan of a club who these days can always afford to get their main targets and it's almost unheard of for them to miss out on a player over a few quid. A fan of a club who's already got enough talent in the squad that they have had the luxury of being able to prioritise one position over another in a given xfer window. Apart from those most other clubs live in a different financial world and have to spread their money around that bit more.

But I really don't see why we constantly have the Rafa's V Fergie's spending arguement as no matter which way you look at it - it's simply not a like for like comparison and never will be. Chalk and Cheese

Mitch Connor · 02-03-2009 11:44AM

People compare them because Rafa lies about the situation, saying he has spent less than he has received, which annoys people.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 11:46AM

Headshot wrote: »

how can you compare Gerrard v Ronaldo both play totally different positions

and pretty comparable

3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick

utd wins there

and i had a laugh when i saw this Kuyt V Rooney
kuyt isnt a striker anymore tbh
when liverpool have this full strength team,kuyt would be on the right

7. Mascherano v Scholes

again totally different players

8. Riera v Giggs

should be Riera v park

I would say

Reina v Van Der Saar - Reina
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, but not by as much as people think
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Alonso
Gerrard v Rooney - Gerrard
Kuyt v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

United have so many more attacking options that it's hard to compare them, but obviously Rooney and Tevez would own Benayoun, Babel etc.
For comparisons sake i just put both down for a 4231 formation.

kida · 02-03-2009 11:49AM

whatawaster wrote: »

I would say

Reina v Van Der Saar - Reina
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, but not by as much as people think
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Alonso
Gerrard v Rooney - Gerrard
Kuyt v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

United have so many more attacking options that it's hard to compare them, but obviously Rooney and Tevez would own Benayoun, Babel etc.
For comparisons sake i just put both down for a 4231 formation.

sorry but ROFL
all 3 of Pools midfielders better

Reina v Van Der Saar - Current VDS
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Brown - not close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, by a mile
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Scholes
Gerrard v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Kuyt v Rooney - Rooney
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

in a 4-4-2

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 11:55AM

kida wrote: »

sorry but ROFL
all 3 of Pools midfielders better

Reina v Van Der Saar - Current VDS
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Brown - not close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, by a mile
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Scholes
Gerrard v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Kuyt v Rooney - Rooney
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

in a 4-4-2

but Gerrard doesn't play in Ronaldo's position. That's why i compared him to Rooney, and i would take him over Wayne any day of the week. They both play off a striker. Ronaldo plays in the same position as Kuyt.
Scholes is a legend, but he is not the player he used to be, Alonso is at his peak and is imo a better player.

Headshot · 02-03-2009 11:58AM

whatawaster wrote: »

I would say

Reina v Van Der Saar - Reina
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, but not by as much as people think
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Alonso
Gerrard v Rooney - Gerrard
Kuyt v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

United have so many more attacking options that it's hard to compare them, but obviously Rooney and Tevez would own Benayoun, Babel etc.
For comparisons sake i just put both down for a 4231 formation.

I can agree with some of them(only some)

masch is a brilliant DM but he cant pass the ball unlike carrick.
carrick is a brilliant player,eye for a goal,good intercepter ,brilliant passer,
so i would vote carrick

Alonso v Scholes

edit: yesterdays game really showed how good scholes is still

Boggles · 02-03-2009 11:58AM

whatawaster wrote: »

Alonso is at his peak

Alonso at his Peak?? He hasn't had a good game this calender year. He was good in 8-10 matches at the start of the season, excellent in a couple, but over the last 3 years he has been very very average, comparing him to Scholes is both unfair and a joke TBH.

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 12:01PM

Headshot wrote: »

I can agree with some of them(only some)

masch is a brilliant DM but he cant pass the ball unlike carrick.
carrick is a brilliant player,eye for a goal,good intercepter ,brilliant passer,
so i would vote carrick

Alonso v Scholes
I would say this is even

i completely admit Vidic is better than Skrtel.

completely disagree about Scholes. He's not the player he once was.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Mascherano and Carrick, they play different roles anyway. I think he'd walk into United's team to be honest, alongside Carrick, he'd give your midfield better balance.

PiE · 02-03-2009 12:02PM

I'm so glad this rubbish isn't in the Liverpool thread. Thanks mods.

Boggles · 02-03-2009 12:02PM

PiE wrote: »

I'm so glad this rubbish isn't in the Liverpool thread. Thanks mods.

Great input as usual Pie, well done lad. :rolleyes:

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 12:05PM

Boggles wrote: »

Alonso at his Peak?? He hasn't had a good game this calender year. He was good in 8-10 matches at the start of the season, excellent in a couple, but over the last 3 years he has been very very average, comparing him to Scholes is both unfair and a joke TBH.

8-10 matches. P*ss off, he's been our best player this season apart from Gerrard. We must be fighting off relegation if our second best player has been good in barely half a dozen games. Give us all a break please.

Boggles · 02-03-2009 12:06PM

whatawaster wrote: »

8-10 matches. P*ss off, he's been our best player this season apart from Gerrard. We must be fighting off relegation if our second best player has been good in barely half a dozen games. Give us all a break please.

What match this calender year was he at his peak?

whatawaster · 02-03-2009 12:15PM

Boggles wrote: »

What match this calender year was he at his peak?

don't know about his peak, but he was outstanding against Real Madrid, not going forward, but he defended brilliantly.
He was excellent against Chelsea, and although his form has dipped slightly since the start of the season, he's certainly not going through some sort of crisis as you are seemingly suggesting.

slingerz · 02-03-2009 02:03PM

You cant choose betweent the defences with the exception of Left Back where United are a lot stronger. In the centre of midfield Alonso and Mascherano compare against Carrick and Scholes. Gerrard can compare against Rooney off the striker. Torres is better than Berbatov but Berbatov is still a quality player. Ronaldo is way ahead of Kuyt and Park and Riera are pretty comparable really.

On the bench though having Anderson, Carrick, Nani, Tevez, Fletcher, Evans, O'Shea etc is where United are way over Liverpool

kida · 02-03-2009 02:26PM

slingerz wrote: »

You cant choose betweent the defences with the exception of Left Back where United are a lot stronger. /QUOTE]

Very true except for Centre Backs and Right Back :pac:

ziggy · 02-03-2009 02:55PM

This post has been deleted.

Mitch Connor · 02-03-2009 02:57PM

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As a solid DM, Mascherano is better, Carrick is more like Alonso, and as a CM, Carrick is a lot better than Mascherano. I don't think it is fair to say one is better than the other, they are both brilliant at what they are asked to do, which suits the way their manager wants them and their team to play. I don't think United would be as good with Mascherano in for Carrick, or at least they'd be very different, and the same would have to be said for Liverpool.

MementoMori · 02-03-2009 03:15PM

Liverpool Current Squad

Fernando Torres £26m
Javier Mascherano £18.6m
Ryan Babel £11.5m
Xabi Alonso £10.7m
Dirk Kuyt £9m
Albert Riera £8m
Pepe Reina £6m
Martin Škrtel £6m
Andrea Dossena £6m
Lucas £6m
Daniel Agger £5.8m
Yossi Benayoun £5m
Diego Cavalieri £3m
Sami Hyypiä £2.6m
Álvaro Arbeloa £2.6m
David N'Gog £1.5m
Emiliano Insúa £1m
Steven Gerrard Youth Player
Jamie Carragher Youth Player
Jay Spearing Youth Player
Stephen Darby Youth Player
Martin Kelly Youth Player
Fábio Aurélio Free
Nabil El Zhar Free
Damien Plessis Free
Philipp Degen Free
Charles Itandje Undisclosed (£2m max - most likely around £1m)

Grand Total £131.3m

What about Robbie Keane I hear the cry?

He has been omitted but even if you want to include him I think you’re looking at a maximum net cost of £7m and I’m actually pretty confident it’s somewhat closer to a net fee of £3m.

For the sake of it I will add a “loan fee” of £5m

Grand Total £136.3m

This also includes Charles Itandje:mad::mad:, who given he wasn’t even named as sub for the Carling Cup has to be considered 5th choice keeper at the club.

It also includes Fernando at £26m even though personally I believe the £20m is likely but there has been a lot of confusion about this and I reckon there will be enough dispute about figures anyway.

Rio Ferdinand £33m
Dimitar Berbatov £30.75m
Wayne Rooney £25.6m
Anderson £20.4m
Owen Hargreaves £17m
Michael Carrick £14m
Nani £14m
Cristiano Ronaldo £12.24m
Nemanja Vidic £7.2m
Patrice Evra £5.5m
Park Ji-Sung £4m
Edwin van der Sar £2m
Fábio £2.6m
Rafael £2.6m
Tomasz Kuszczak £2.125m
Ben Foster £1m
Ryan Giggs Youth Player
Paul Scholes Youth Player
Gary Neville (captain) Youth Player
Wes Brown Youth Player
John O'Shea Youth Player
Darren Fletcher Youth Player
Danny Welbeck Youth Player
Jonny Evans Youth Player
Frazier Campbell Youth Player
Danny Simpson Youth Player
Darron Gibson Youth Player
Richard Eckersley Youth Player

Grand Total of £194 million excluding Tevez

The loan deal of Carlos Tévez proves difficult. According to everything I‘ve read it‘s a case of a £10m loan fee which was to be set against a transfer fee of £30m if Utd bought him. However this deal has reportedly expired. The fact remains that Utd have paid a £10m loan fee to date, so if I you include Tevez at a minimum of £10m and that pushes things up to £204m mark

There is also the case of Zoran Tošic and Ljajic who were bought for a combined £16.3m, for the future :eek: - I could just imagine what the response Rafa would have got if he had gone looking for £16m for two players "for the future” :eek::o

Also regarding Rodrigo Possebon and Manucho I’m pretty sure that fees were paid but couldn’t find anything in the way of figures.

I’ve included Campbell and Simpson because although they are on loan they’re relevant in terms of players coming through the youth system on loan at Premier League clubs. No product of the LFC youth academy is on loan at any PL team.

:(

Taken this all into account would push things up over the £220m level.

A number of things jump out when you compare and contrast the two squads - Rafa has been hampered by the fact that not only did he inherit a squad that needed to be rebuilt he also inherited a shambles of a youth system. Given his track record and experience as youth coach for Real Madrid you can clearly see why he had difficulties with Rick Parry over the youth system at Liverpool. The good news for Liverpool supporters is that things seem to have improved as regards the whole youths side of things, with a reports of a number of potentials for the future. Another problem is that you’re dealing with a much longer time frame with youths especially when you compare it to to transfers.

Looking at Liverpool’s squad the utter abysmal failure of the youth system up until recently is clearly evident. The Liverpool squad have Gerrard and Carra as the two players who have come through the youth system and have gone on to play a significant part and become integral members of the squad. After that it’s Spearing, Darby, and Kelly who have come through the youths and they have not really come anywhere near making an impact as regards the first team, apart from utter cameo appearances. Insua has been developed on through the youth system a fair bit but a fee of £1m had to be paid for him initially. On the United side of things this was similar enough to the Silva twins, although in their case the fee was reported as £5.2m for the two of them.

When you compare the youth side of things for Utd players who have come through from the youths you have Giggs, Scholes, and Neville, who have performed at a similar integral level for Utd. After that you have the squad players Brown, O'Shea and Fletcher who have clocked up significant playing time and made vital contributions to the team, while Liverpool have nothing remotely similar to in terms of coming through the youth system. Even the next rung down the ladder looks to be advantage United with Evans, Welbeck, Gibson, Simpson, Campbell all very likely to have decent careers. Clearly the Man Utd youth system has out performed Liverpool’s in the last decade.:(

One advantage of having a better youth system is that you can always sell on those who don’t turn out to be “top top players” It also means that even if you only end up with a decent squad player - sample example John O’Shea that means at least you don’t have to go to the hassle of going out and buying a squad player in. This can make a big difference on the other side of things as rather than say having to buy one striker and one defender for £30m, you have your defender and can afford to spend the whole £30m on a striker. Also having a productive youth system is handy it that it can turn into a nice little earner. I’m sure a comparison of youth players sold on over the last decade of so would show it to be major advantage Utd once again.

Overall the striking thing is that even though Utd have five (arguably six) first-team squad members, as well as another five or six fringe/squad players who look up to Premier League standard compared to the miserable Liverpool’s two players who have come through the youth system, Utd’s squad cost an utter minimum of £75m and possibly pushing up in the region of £100m more to assemble than Liverpool’s. By rights there shouldn’t really have been any sort of title race whatsoever.

Mitch Connor · 02-03-2009 03:24PM

Excellent post.

eagle eye · 02-03-2009 03:50PM

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

Boggles · 02-03-2009 03:55PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

No one could agree with that.

slingerz · 02-03-2009 03:56PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

Benitiez @ chelsea??

kida · 02-03-2009 03:58PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

assume you meant at pool.

Different times, you don't get as much time nowadays. Fergie also was playing a style of football symonymous with the history if the club.

Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

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