Investigating to start my own "picobrewery"

oblivious · 05-02-2009 06:20PM

guildofevil wrote: »

4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)

Yep, 3kg is around 9.50

noby · 06-02-2009 09:48AM

guildofevil wrote: »

1 Pack of dry yeast: €2.
50g - 60g Hops: About €4.
4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)
10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity: €1.60

Sitting back with a pint of your own beer: Priceless!

Wallacebiy · 06-02-2009 09:06PM

guildofevil wrote: »

The grain is actually the most expensive ingredient and I am including energy costs.

An average brew making 23 litres of 4.x% Vol. beer on my system breaks down as follows:

1 Pack of dry yeast: €2.
50g - 60g Hops: About €4.
4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)
10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity: €1.60
(Assumes my 2.4Kw element running for 4 hours, which is longer than I have ever actually used it).

2 things

1 ) I'll be buying whole malted grain for about 1 eur a kilo ( I live near a Maltings )
2) I get cheap electricity .

( Now I need to get a mill too !!)

I've looked into Palmers online version of the book . there's some great chemistry in there and explanations of Water and how it interacts with the grain during mashing and how different enzymes interact at different Ph levels and temperatures to break off sugars .

My gut feeling from this is that if I wanted to produce anything like pils or possibly ales or bitters I would need to sparge , but for the stout I want to make it'll be more important to get the mix of roast and unroasted malt right.

If you think about it simply sugars are soluble and the type of water you are using should dissolve as much of them as it can chemically dissolve for a given volume , at the temp you mash . it shouldn't matter whether the full volume is present at the beginning of the mash or added afterwards. Efficiency is then gained more from controlling the conditions for converting the starches into different types of sugar . this has to be balanced with flavouring from insoluble bits that remain suspended in the wort.

Having looked at it in more detail now , I reckon that for my stout , given what I know of water conditions in Cork , I won't need to sparge . I may need to recirculate the wort , to filter it through the grain bed and create a clearer wort. I will need to

A) use a stepped temperature in the Mash ( possibly around 60C for 15 mins 68.5 for the remainder )

figure out the optimum amount of Black roasted Malt to get the Ph right in the total wort ( I'm thinking around 15 % )

If I want to brew any other types of beer ( which I probably will ) I will need to Sparge , to get the right flavours into the beer . I'll have to mull alot over that to get it right and probably do a whole pile of maths , but there it is , c'est la vie.

Wallacebiy · 06-02-2009 09:17PM

oblivious wrote: »

Was that Beamish?, the red ale would use same malt bill I believe, but with lower % of roasted malt and I think there is some where around 15% glucose syrup added in the boil

I had a good think about this , and while I didn't pay as much attention to the explanation of the red ale as I did to everything else I think I remember the same percentage of roasted malt being mentioned , but instead of all full roast , it was mostly a lighter roast .

If I remember right the figures may have been 85% unroasted , 10% light roast and 5% dark roast . I'm guessing here though .

I might actually have a print out somewhere, I vaguely remember getting one , but TBH the 6-8 pints in the brewery Bar afterwards wiped some of the memory.

I might post up the write up I did after I got the tour . might be of interest.

marceldesailly · 06-02-2009 09:25PM

Not really sure why you don't want to sparge but sure i like burning my money, so each to their own.
Also how much malt will you be buying to get it for €1 a kilo?a few tonnes? If you do manage to get it this cheap pass on info please.
Why do you want a clearer wort for a stout?It will be black and soluble proteins wont be seen. Surely you would recirculate for all your beers fopr clarity whther or not you sparge

oblivious · 06-02-2009 09:30PM

Wallacebiy wrote: »

2 things

1 ) I'll be buying whole malted grain for about 1 eur a kilo ( I live near a Maltings ).

If its Greencore, I thought they only supplied by the ton?

Wallacebiy wrote: »

I've looked into Palmers online version of the book . there's some great chemistry in there and explanations of Water and how it interacts with the grain during mashing and how different enzymes interact at different Ph levels and temperatures to break off sugars .

My gut feeling from this is that if I wanted to produce anything like pils or possibly ales or bitters I would need to sparge , but for the stout I want to make it'll be more important to get the mix of roast and unroasted malt right.

Two different thing, sparging is just washing the converted sugar from the grain. Getting the recipe right is important for every beer, Here is a good clone of Guinness 70% pale malt 20% flaked barely (the stuff you see in healt food shops) and 10-9% roasted barley, yeast Irish ale yeast (HERE)

I do have one for beamish but I will have to dig it out

Wallacebiy wrote: »

If you think about it simply sugars are soluble and the type of water you are using should dissolve as much of them as it can chemically dissolve for a given volume , at the temp you mash . it shouldn't matter whether the full volume is present at the beginning of the mash or added afterwards.

It does matter on the volume, but you over come this by increase the malt bill to compensate. The best efficiency is obtained for mashing and sparing each with 50% of your water

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Efficiency is then gained more from controlling the conditions for converting the starches into different types of sugar . this has to be balanced with flavouring from insoluble bits that remain suspended in the wort.

Not really, thats the relative fermenability , while a hotter mash will increase the efficiency a bit, it will effect the over all fermentiblity of the mash

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Having looked at it in more detail now , I reckon that for my stout , given what I know of water conditions in Cork , I won't need to sparge . I may need to recirculate the wort , to filter it through the grain bed and create a clearer wort. I will need to

There is no really correlation of worth clearness and final produce as long as you don't have grain husk in the runnings. The hot break and copper finnings are much mire important

Wallacebiy wrote: »

A) use a stepped temperature in the Mash ( possibly around 60C for 15 mins 68.5 for the remainder )

figure out the optimum amount of Black roasted Malt to get the Ph right in the total wort ( I'm thinking around 15 % )

you can do a step mash if you want but single infusion works fine with modern malts, 15% of black patent is a massive amount, around 10-9% of roasted barely will get you in the area

Wallacebiy wrote: »

If I want to brew any other types of beer ( which I probably will ) I will need to Sparge , to get the right flavours into the beer . I'll have to mull alot over that to get it right and probably do a whole pile of maths , but there it is , c'est la vie.

Get you self a copy of Promash a brewing calculating software, it has a free demo version but worth buying

http://www.promash.com/

Wallacebiy · 06-02-2009 09:36PM

marceldesailly wrote: »

Not really sure why you don't want to sparge but sure i like burning my money, so each to their own.
Also how much malt will you be buying to get it for €1 a kilo?a few tonnes? If you do manage to get it this cheap pass on info please.
Why do you want a clearer wort for a stout?It will be black and soluble proteins wont be seen. Surely you would recirculate for all your beers for clarity whther or not you sparge

Bags of 10 Kgs as I said I live near the Maltings , and I'll have to crush it myself ( may buy prepacked roasted malt though )
Recirculate , to take out bigger lumps of things that would make the beer cloudy and brownish. May still have to use finings though .

On the sparging , as I said above . It looks like I'll have to sparge if I want to make ales or pils or weis beers, but it seems to me like an unecessary step in the stout I want to brew. the only advantage I can see is a smaller Tun, but that's offset by the need for another Boiler .

I may reconsider my design and allow for sparging , but as I'm looking at starting form scratch , I'm thinking a large Tun can be installed , and I'd rather have the extra capacity and be looking at it , than not have it and be looking for it .

Wallacebiy · 06-02-2009 09:58PM

Oblivious : - ( not qouting for ease here )

Cheers for that link for the yeast. I was thinking I'd have to go begging at the University for some decent yeast, that looks just the job !!

I'll PM You the Malting Co. if you like ( not sure whether they'd like it all over here or not , but I looked in the phone book and phoned the local malting co and that's what they quoted me ).

I think you're missing the point I made about the solubility of sugars in water .
Yes sparging washes the sugars out of the grain . But only because there wasn't enough Volume in the original amount to absorb those sugars ( the enzymes convert what they convert for the conditions no matter what the initial volume)
If the original Volume was sufficient to absorb those sugars than they wouldn't be left in the grain . the problem though is that the Total Volume is limited in ist's absorbtion by the pre-existing Bicarbonates, salts , minerals and Ions already contained in the water. Different water conditions will have different characteristics in their ability to absorb. they will also affect the enzymes ability to process ( leading to more or less malty tastes and fermentability in the Wort) Sparging is a way to have more control over this .
It also probably has an energy benefit, it probably uses less energy to keep X amount of water at Y degrees for an hour then add 2X at that temperature at the end than keep 3X of water at Y degrees for an hour .

oblivious · 06-02-2009 10:51PM

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Oblivious : - ( not qouting for ease here )

Cheers for that link for the yeast. I was thinking I'd have to go begging at the University for some decent yeast, that looks just the job !!

I'll PM You the Malting Co. if you like ( not sure whether they'd like it all over here or not , but I looked in the phone book and phoned the local malting co and that's what they quoted me ).

I think you're missing the point I made about the solubility of sugars in water .
Yes sparging washes the sugars out of the grain . But only because there wasn't enough Volume in the original amount to absorb those sugars ( the enzymes convert what they convert for the conditions no matter what the initial volume)

If the original Volume was sufficient to absorb those sugars than they wouldn't be left in the grain . the problem though is that the Total Volume is limited in ist's absorbtion by the pre-existing Bicarbonates, salts , minerals and Ions already contained in the water. Different water conditions will have different characteristics in their ability to absorb.

they will also affect the enzymes ability to process ( leading to more or less malty tastes and fermentability in the Wort) Sparging is a way to have more control over this .

Sorry but no, to get the same gravity as a sparge you will have to increase you malt bill to compicate. If add all you water at the startthis will work but at the cost of the % extraction no matter what the water profile or strike temp

As for dissolved salts these will form ions these ion will effect the ph with in turn will ultimately effect the rate of active of the amylases and thus the fermentibility. Roasted malt or barley will drop the ph of water, water with high bicarbonates suite stout/porter brewing as the Roasted material will bring down the ph of the water to around 5.2

Sparing is not going to change your fermentibilty, that will be decide by your mash temp

oblivious · 06-02-2009 10:54PM

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Cheers for that link for the yeast. I was thinking I'd have to go begging at the University for some decent yeast, that looks just the job !!

The http://thehomebrewcompany.ie usually stock it along with other yeast.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

I think you're missing the point I made about the solubility of sugars in water .
Yes sparging washes the sugars out of the grain . But only because there wasn't enough Volume in the original amount to absorb those sugars ( the enzymes convert what they convert for the conditions no matter what the initial volume)

If the original Volume was sufficient to absorb those sugars than they wouldn't be left in the grain . the problem though is that the Total Volume is limited in ist's absorbtion by the pre-existing Bicarbonates, salts , minerals and Ions already contained in the water. Different water conditions will have different characteristics in their ability to absorb.

they will also affect the enzymes ability to process ( leading to more or less malty tastes and fermentability in the Wort) Sparging is a way to have more control over this .

Sorry, but to get the same gravity as a sparge you will have to increase you malt bill to adjust. If add all you water at the start this will work but at the cost of the % extraction no matter what the water profile or strike temp.

As for dissolved salts these will form ions these ion will effect the ph with in turn will ultimately effect the rate of active of the amylases and thus the fermentibility. Roasted malt or barley will drop the ph of water, water with high bicarbonates suite stout/porter brewing as the Roasted material will bring down the ph of the water to around 5.2. Sparing is not going to change your fermentibilty, that will be decide by your mash temp

Wallacebiy · 07-02-2009 10:40AM

Really lads , what you are trying to say is that 2 small cups of sugar is more than one big cup of sugar . You do realise that .

The volume of water in the initial mash does affect the conversion of sugars , because it affects the PH of the mash

If the temperature is the same in the two set ups , and the grain amount is the same in the 2 set ups and the total volume of water is the same in the 2 set ups it's the Ph that is different during the mash if you are Sparging or not sparging . That affects the conversion in the mash.

Now I'm not saying I won't have to increase the grain bill , I probably will, to get the ideal ph in the water volume I'm using . I reckon that adjustment will come in the form of the Roast malt %

This may be why I'll be using about 15% roast Barley instead of the 9-10 % as suggested above ,
With a sparge the higher % roast barley would overly affect the Ph , without
it should make conditions ideal

I realise of course until I brew this is all hypothetical discussion . I'm not opposed to sparging in any way . I just don't think it's the right thing for me to do given the stout I want . As I've said , the water I have is going to need help if I want to brew pils style beer or pale ales , so I'll most likely have to sparge for that ,

Brewing . probably the best thing in the world .

oblivious · 07-02-2009 12:28PM

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Really lads , what you are trying to say is that 2 small cups of sugar is more than one big cup of sugar . You do realise that .

Its not quite the same, the sugar need to be wash from the grain. You do just dissolved table table sugar in a pot. An its not just made up of one simple sugar, its contains both simple, complex lipids, tannins and protein all of which are going to extract a slightly different rates

Wallacebiy wrote: »

The volume of water in the initial mash does affect the conversion of sugars , because it affects the PH of the mash

But its does have an effect, a thick mash favors protein degeneration and a thin mash carbohydrate as in the starch chains. Not massive I will give yuo but an a very low mash temp and thick mash can effect head retention as some of the poplypeptides are degraded to much.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

If the temperature is the same in the two set ups , and the grain amount is the same in the 2 set ups and the total volume of water is the same in the 2 set ups it's the Ph that is different during the mash if you are Sparging or not sparging . That affects the conversion in the mash.

The only time that sparing has effect on ph is with fly or continous, as the grain is washed its the ph will rise extracting tannins, which can give a harsh tea like taste. Batch or no sparge does not allow leeching from the grain and thus one your ph is set you dont have to worries about it again. you can also do a quick litmus test to check ph or invest in a ph probe. But the first is as good as any.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

This may be why I'll be using about 15% roast Barley instead of the 9-10 % as suggested above ,
With a sparge the higher % roast barley would overly affect the Ph , without
it should make conditions ideal .

If your are really worried about the ph, you can use some Five Star 5.2 pH Stabilizer:

One tablespoon of 5.2 per 5 gallon batch and your water is instantly adjusted to the perfect ph of 5.2, no matter what your starting ph was. It will not add any flavors to your mash water whatsoever. 5.2 optimizes the enzymatic activity of your malt, helps to clarify the wort, and may even help to raise your starting gravities. Also, using 5.2 in the boil will give you more consistent hop usage, and will also keep hard water salts in solution, which will result in less scaling in your heat exchangers, fermenters, and kegs.

http://thehomebrewcompany.ie sell it

You can certainty do as I have said before a No sparge brew, but you have to change certain parameters either the final volume or the grist size. One method that may suite you would running of a much higher gravity that you need in a smaller volume and then add water to hit the pre boil gravity you want and this is all done before you boil.

Wallacebiy · 07-02-2009 08:57PM

Gents
I just have to say that this is the most enjoyable , and decent discussion I've had in a long time on any subject whatsoever . I really can't wait to start brewing . I will be taking heed of everything in here , as it will all help my brewing , even if I want to do my stout in a no sparge mash to try and make it as beautiful as I can , I do realise that for any other brewing I might do at all
sparging is probably the best way to go.

I just have to sort about a million things ( kettles , heaters , pipes , coolers , fermentors, yeast grain/ conditioning tanks , kegs and bottles, sanitisers )

It'll be busy , and it's likely I won't be posting my success ( or failure ) in here for about 6months or more ,

But I will keep it updated.

oblivious · 08-02-2009 03:32PM

Best of luck with the hobby, there are few home brewers down cork that might let you tag along of a brew to help get you up and running faster

Wallacebiy · 12-02-2009 03:32PM

I've sourced a free standard Beer keg , that I'm considering converting for use in my plant .

Anyone experienced in converting Keggs to kettles ?

Or is there some better use I could put it to ( conditioning tank for instance )

oblivious · 12-02-2009 03:35PM

Here is a run through and a few videos, and its called a keggle (keg and kettle:P)

Video
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=14856

Some more video

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-keggle-conversion-video-28979/

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=31646

Wallacebiy · 13-02-2009 01:26AM

oblivious wrote: »

Here is a run through and a few videos, and its called a keggle (keg and kettle:P)

Video
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=14856

Some more video

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-keggle-conversion-video-28979/

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=31646

Those links are great , I'm gonna make this the mashing tun

cavedave · 13-02-2009 12:20PM

Wallacebiy
Investigating to start my own "picobrewery"

When I were a lad , de brother and I were into kit brewing ( in plastic buckets and such ) we had good successes. But that was a long time ago .

With the imminent closing of my favourite commercial brewery ( Beamish ) I've decided to build my own mini brewing plant at home ( I now own a house , I think it'll be a good addition )

Building a brewery is the dream of many. You can make great beer with some buckets and a pot. So while its fun to look at putting together all this kit it might be worth just making up some simple brews with basic kit and then deciding a bit later whether you want (and how you want) to build a brewery.

Wallacebiy · 13-02-2009 12:50PM

cavedave wrote: »

Building a brewery is the dream of many. You can make great beer with some buckets and a pot. So while its fun to look at putting together all this kit it might be worth just making up some simple brews with basic kit and then deciding a bit later whether you want (and how you want) to build a brewery.

I reckon I'm just going to skip the pot and bucket brewing , grand and all as it is . I just think it'll be easier in the long run ( on both me and the wife ) if I just set up the kit I need in the wasted shedspace I have down the back .
I really want to just make myself self sufficient really . And in Partnership with the brother that translates to about 60L brew every 2 months or so . It just makes more sense to do that as economically and repeatable as possible .

I'm reckoning now in the order of :
Keg - Free ( use this for a mashing tun with aabout 100 euros conversion cost )
Hop Boiler - willing to spend about 250 on this
Fermenter - Willing to spend the same on that ( maybe stretch to 300 )
Sundries ( piping filtering cooling thermometers hydrometers etc , 100)

Kegging / bottling kit about 200

total spend on kit less than 1000 euro . Equivalent to about a years entertainment between us .

Ongoing costs of about 50 euros a brew . ( 300 per year )

total for first years brewing 1300 euros . 300 per year after .
over 5 years allowing for a little inflation and maintenence that's maybe 3000 total

That's 1500 each over 5 years , meaning 300 euros each a year.

I reckon that makes good sense , even if I underestimated by 20% that's still pretty cheap .

Now I'm not sure , but I think most 23l kit brews in decent buckets etc work out about 1.50 a litre . For two guys , brewing the same amount via the pot and bucket method would work out at €540 per year.

Now there is a good advantage to smaller scale brewing , and that's variety . variety is a a great thing and not to be knocked at all , and is probably great fun .
I'm really interested in doing this though under the terms I've laid out above .

That said I am considering doing a scaled batch to test my recipe ( for no sparge stout ) so I'm considering mashing that in a ten litre pot .
that might be fun , but I got to get some of my sundries for that ( thermometers hydrometer , etc )

cavedave · 13-02-2009 01:29PM

That said I am considering doing a scaled batch to test my recipe ( for no sparge stout ) so I'm considering mashing that in a ten litre pot .
that might be fun , but I got to get some of my sundries for that ( thermometers hydrometer , etc )

That does sound like a good idea just to make sure your intended workflow (or drinkflow) makes sense.

There are a few guys on this thread who brew great beer (ive tasted it) so Ill leave it to them to advise on setups and recipes.

Wallacebiy · 13-02-2009 01:35PM

cavedave wrote: »

That does sound like a good idea just to make sure your intended workflow (or drinkflow) makes sense.

There are a few guys on this thread who brew great beer (ive tasted it) so Ill leave it to them to advise on setups and recipes.

Cheers.

I'm a serious head though , If I do something I generally do it well.And I generally trust my gut instinct as it's usually right . I've gotten great advice and info from the guys in here , and I'm looking forward to getting a batch , to really be able to compare notes properly .

bionic.laura · 13-02-2009 02:51PM

Brew your own magazine is definitely worth subscribing to if you're planning on building a brewery in the shed. They had a recent article on converting a keg to a kettle.
They also had all the plans for a brutus 10 system (sorry if it was mentioned before) which sounds like the kind of thing you want.

Don't dismiss 'pot and bucket' brewing a lot of us do it with great results!

I'd be interested in what technique Beamish use. They don't use a lauter tun at all? Seems odd to me, most breweries I've been in do. I made a Beamish style stout there a while ago, it was lovely.

Wallacebiy · 13-02-2009 03:19PM

bionic.laura wrote: »

Brew your own magazine is definitely worth subscribing to if you're planning on building a brewery in the shed. They had a recent article on converting a keg to a kettle.
They also had all the plans for a brutus 10 system (sorry if it was mentioned before) which sounds like the kind of thing you want.

Don't dismiss 'pot and bucket' brewing a lot of us do it with great results!

I'd be interested in what technique Beamish use. They don't use a lauter tun at all? Seems odd to me, most breweries I've been in do. I made a Beamish style stout there a while ago, it was lovely.

I don't dismiss pot and Bucket brewing . I really enjoyed it when the brother and I did it, and I'd say for most the fun is in being able to experiment with different brews more frequently . I just really want to do things this time with
a bit more of an eye on a repeatable cost effective low labour solution . ( I'm a man of plain tastes in reality lol )

The Tun in B&C is a combined mash and lauter tun , and is capable of sparging , but as far as I can remember they either don't sparge their stout or they only sparge a little if necessary to adjust pH when recirculating . they would likely sparge the lagers ( Miller, Carling and Fosters.) The Day I toured there they were in the middle of a mash for Beamish ( they were recirculating it when I passed the Tun ) but hadn't reached the hopping Kettle.

The Tun Plate basically compartmented the Tun into a top and bottom and a batch of wort from the top could fit into the bottom. the top was about twice the size of the bottom , You could see the difference between the wort on top and the Bottom where it had filtered through the grainbed

bionic.laura · 13-02-2009 03:46PM

That's interesting, most places have a separate lauter tun. Pity it's all going to be gone soon. Ireland has too few breweries and losing Beamish as well is a blow.

Wallacebiy · 13-02-2009 03:52PM

bionic.laura wrote: »

That's interesting, most places have a separate lauter tun. Pity it's all going to be gone soon. Ireland has too few breweries and losing Beamish as well is a blow.

Being honest and from looking at the tun plate from 1792 that's set in the floor
of the lobby I think they might have always done things that way . They actually have a lot of stuff in there preserved from the original brewery including the old brew floor and kit . Hope Heineken don't dump it all into a shed somewhere.

BeerNut · 13-02-2009 03:57PM

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Hope Heineken don't dump it all into a shed somewhere.

The metal's probably worth too much.

guildofevil · 13-02-2009 05:02PM

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Being honest and from looking at the tun plate from 1792 that's set in the floor
of the lobby I think they might have always done things that way . They actually have a lot of stuff in there preserved from the original brewery including the old brew floor and kit . Hope Heineken don't dump it all into a shed somewhere.

They probably have. The separate lauter tun is a German brewing thing, while English brewing techniques traditionally relied on a combined mash/lauter tun.

Wallacebiy · 21-02-2009 11:00AM

Took possession yesterday of two kegs .

Must now souce heating elements, fittings, piping and tun plate . And start building !!

Wallacebiy · 26-02-2009 03:07PM

Tried evals of Promash and Beersmith brewing software ,
I like Beersmith a bit better.

Attached is the recipe I intend to try .

BeerNut · 26-02-2009 03:38PM

I'd have thought you'd want some roast barley in there too, for an Irish stout.

Investigating to start my own "picobrewery"

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