Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

mark renton · 12-02-2009 12:22PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

John, while posting your oppinion is most certainly not trolling, posting your oppinion, getting a load of countering responses, and completely ignoring them, then going off and posting another oppinion is trolling albeit inadvertant.

You're perfectly entitled to your oppinion, you are not however entitles to post it as fact.
This is something that you have been doing constantly.

Everytime that you say something, 4 or 5 voices sound to point out their reasons for why they think you are wrong, usually posting facts.
You ignore them, and instead post more oppinions as facts.
This is trolling, cause it's something you are doing that is causing aggravation on the thread.

If you are capable and willing to post your oppinions, be willing to address those that disagree.
That would cut down on a lot of the attitude you have been recieving.
Also, you constantly acting as if your oppinion is fact, is very aggravating.

This is not in any way any kind of attack, just some advice on how to stop the agro and trolliung accusations.

Because my opinion is against the majority opinion in this thread people have been singling me out. As I dont have time to reply to all of these kind people this could be seen as ignoring and aggrivating - not intended.

I dont mind being accused of trolling - People will always be accused of that when they have a different opinion.

Anyways I do agree that I could have added "IMO" into my posts and will take on board the advice

Boggles · 12-02-2009 12:28PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

You're exactly right, my stats were way off for AF.
Not my area of expertice;)

I'm sure you can see my point though.
Stating that Benitez should be fired if he doesn't win the league after 5 years is farcicle.
Not winning the league and showing no progress and never challenging maybe.
But some of the best managers ever took years to build their dynasty.

What you said applied 20 and 40 years ago, in this day and age Rafa has been given a lifetime to win the league.

See poor Phil after a 100 odd days. I know Chelsea arn't a great example of stability, but the pressure for success does make owners and chairmen at "top clubs" itchy.

eagle eye · 12-02-2009 12:29PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

You're exactly right, my stats were way off for AF.
Not my area of expertice;)

I'm sure you can see my point though.
Stating that Benitez should be fired if he doesn't win the league after 5 years is farcicle.
Not winning the league and showing no progress and never challenging maybe.
But some of the best managers ever took years to build their dynasty.

I'm in full agreement with you that he has improved the Liverpool side. I have problems with Rafa but its all about playing the ten men behind the ball teams and how he approaches that. I do agree that he has been successful but I do feel he has thrown away points this season by not playing aggressive enough in certain games. Totally different thing to saying he should get the sack though. I don't agree with that unless of course you end up finishing a distant fourth this season which is very unlikely.
The Keane thing is another story, but without bringing my own beliefs into it, it seems like a very strange decision mid season by a big club to sell him and not replace him. Who is at fault there is a whole other question. That will only become a problem if you suffer from a major injury crisis though.

Karmafaerie · 12-02-2009 12:33PM

therecklessone wrote: »

Since you've taken the time to explain some of the responses to john47832 I'll overlook your use of the word "trolling" in that post. Just this time though.

For the attention of other users:

If you have a problem with a post report it, and if actionable will be dealt with by a mod. Do not accuse another poster of trolling, it is back-seat modding and as you should know, is mentioned in the forum charter.

Let's all get back on topic, shall we?

Sorry, I simply meant that the way he was posting could be seen as inflamitory.
Trolling is a ridiculously over used term!

el rabitos · 12-02-2009 12:39PM

Boggles wrote: »

What you said applied 20 and 40 years ago, in this day and age Rafa has been given a lifetime to win the league.

See poor Phil after a 100 odd days. I know Chelsea arn't a great example of stability, but the pressure for success does make owners and chairmen at "top clubs" itchy.

its hard to justify NOT winning the league given the amount of resources roman has injected into that club.

when rafa has the same amount of money to spend he can be judged on a similar time-frame.

i wouldve thought you'd have more respect for your own club and what fergie has built to think that someone could come in and over-haul an entire team more or less and return to winning the league after only 5 years.

what fergie has built is a machine in alot of respects that just needs oiling every summer, rafa is still building the machine, needs a couple more parts, but he's getting there. more money would buy the parts quicker and might buy better parts but we dont have those kinda resouces.

Karmafaerie · 12-02-2009 12:47PM

Boggles wrote: »

What you said applied 20 and 40 years ago, in this day and age Rafa has been given a lifetime to win the league.

See poor Phil after a 100 odd days. I know Chelsea arn't a great example of stability, but the pressure for success does make owners and chairmen at "top clubs" itchy.

But Liverpool has constantly being moving forward.
The squad is infinately better, the youth teams are improving, in Europe we're feared by all, he's won trophies, and now he is mounting a league assault, while still maintaing an attack on Europe.
He is not stagnating.

We all know that Phil going at Chelsea is a joke, but technically he did go backwards.
With Roman throwing the hisy fit he does all the time, Phil had no chance.

Rafa has shown an improvement, and so can't be compared to Phil.

Karmafaerie · 12-02-2009 12:50PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm in full agreement with you that he has improved the Liverpool side. I have problems with Rafa but its all about playing the ten men behind the ball teams and how he approaches that. I do agree that he has been successful but I do feel he has thrown away points this season by not playing aggressive enough in certain games. Totally different thing to saying he should get the sack though. I don't agree with that unless of course you end up finishing a distant fourth this season which is very unlikely.
The Keane thing is another story, but without bringing my own beliefs into it, it seems like a very strange decision mid season by a big club to sell him and not replace him. Who is at fault there is a whole other question. That will only become a problem if you suffer from a major injury crisis though.

It's a decision that Rafa could live or die on.
If we challenge till the end, or perhaps even win, he's a genius, if not he's a fool who cracked (in the eyes of the media that is).

I think that he's simply a man doing a very good job, under ridiculous preassure from hungry fans, and an oft times idiotic board.

Boggles · 12-02-2009 12:53PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

But Liverpool has constantly being moving forward.

Thats debatable, he took a couple of steps back too.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

The squad is infinately better,

The Liverpool squad is not actually that strong, the first 11 are as a unit, but it's more of a squad game now than it has ever been.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

the youth teams are improving,

Hard one to judge until you see the youth as a finished product.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

in Europe we're feared by all,

Not entirely true, Ferguson wanted Liverpool in the final last year.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

he's won trophies, and now he is mounting a league assault,

So did Houlier

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Rafa has shown an improvement, and so can't be compared to Phil.

He is more comparable to Phil than your comparison of Ferguson a couple of decades ago and Shankly 4 decades ago.

eagle eye · 12-02-2009 12:55PM

Boggles wrote: »

What you said applied 20 and 40 years ago, in this day and age Rafa has been given a lifetime to win the league.

See poor Phil after a 100 odd days. I know Chelsea arn't a great example of stability, but the pressure for success does make owners and chairmen at "top clubs" itchy.

But the man has been in two Champion's League finals during his tenure, thats a huge achievement in itself.

You see its eerily similar to United, they did not win a League for what was it 26 years and the fans were desperate, so much so that Big Ron got the sack after a bad start to the season. They had blown a big lead the year before iirc and thats the real reason the axe fell.

At Liverpool they got used to dominating the League and of course they were successful in Europe as well during United's lean years. They didn't mind not winning one for a while but the gap has grown past a generation now and that means that you have a whole new breed of Liverpool fans who probably never remember them winning the League. These fans are impatient.

Boggles · 12-02-2009 12:59PM

eagle eye wrote: »

But the man has been in two Champion's League finals during his tenure, thats a huge achievement in itself.

You see its eerily similar to United, they did not win a League for what was it 26 years and the fans were desperate, so much so that Big Ron got the sack after a bad start to the season. They had blown a big lead the year before iirc and thats the real reason the axe fell.

At Liverpool they got used to dominating the League and of course they were successful in Europe as well during United's lean years. They didn't mind not winning one for a while but the gap has grown past a generation now and that means that you have a whole new breed of Liverpool fans who probably never remember them winning the League. These fans are impatient.

I'm not knocking Rafa's achievements, but your comparing a manager now, to decades ago, it's a totally different sport / business.

eagle eye · 12-02-2009 01:08PM

Boggles wrote: »

I'm not knocking Rafa's achievements, but your comparing a manager now, to decades ago, it's a totally different sport / business.

But its not different at the three clubs that have been there all through Arsenal, Liverpool and United.

I mean Liverpool have had what maybe four managers since the Premier League began. Arsenal have had two and United have had only one.

While you see them come and go at other clubs, it has never been like that at those clubs.

Phil Thompson was only caretaker manager when Houllier had his operation btw.

Karmafaerie · 12-02-2009 01:09PM

Boggles wrote: »

Thats debatable, he took a couple of steps back too.

This is the most realistic title challenge in over a decade.
A couple of steps backwards is more than countered by the flying leap forward.

Boggles wrote:

The Liverpool squad is not actually that strong, the first 11 are as a unit, but it's more of a squad game now than it has ever been.

The fact that I say the squad has improved, doesn't mean that I'm saying the squad is top notch.
Our first 11 are better than their counterparts pre Benitez yes.
And our second stringers may not be up to scratch with UTD/Chelsea, but they are completely beter than those we had a few years ago.
Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Warnock, Diomede etc were bad players!

Boggles wrote:

Hard one to judge until you see the youth as a finished product.

I didn't say they were world beaters, I said they were improved.
They are.
Two youth cups and a reserve league title = improvement.
Even if none of them make it, which I highly doubt, they've still improved on 5 years ago.

Boggles wrote:

Not entirely true, Ferguson wanted Liverpool in the final last year.

Of course he did, just like Benitez said he'd want UTD.
Doesn't mean that he didn't fear them.
I didn't say we were actively avoided by all.
I said that we are feared and respected a hell of a lot more than we were before Benitez.
Nobody can doubt that.
1 win, 2 final, 3 semi-finals, and 4 times past the group stages, in 4 years is un-arguable.

Boggles wrote:

So did Houlier

Houllier, whom I had a lot of respect for, only ever challenged once.
We finished 2nd, in 2002 7 points off a coasting Arsenal.
The next year Houllier suffered his heart problems and so failed to build on this.
He wasn't the same afterwards.
Football is full of "what if's".

Boggles wrote:

He is more comparable to Phil than your comparison of Ferguson a couple of decades ago and Shankly 4 decades ago.

I'm sorry, but in no way is Scolari's 8 month tennure in a club that has had no like ever in English football, until now with Citeh, and which has gone through 3 managers in as many years, comparable with Benitez's 4 years at Liverpool.

Different structures, money, board demands, fan demands, preassure, et all.

Completely different.

Ferguson and Shankly taking over sleeping giants and trying to bring them back to the top, not showing proper success for 5-7 years.
Now that is exactly what Benitez is trying.

Ardent · 12-02-2009 01:39PM

BastardPrince wrote: »

and you know this how?

and you know this how?

in the majority of games he played for us the guy couldnt kick snow of a rope in front of goal, why would that change in the second half of the season.

yes second rate players - why does Kuyt make the Dutch team if he is so bad.

caused by Benitez? he is actively trying to get agger a new contract which the club wont give him. and again how o you know that agger will leave "due to the lack of contentment"?

its a new level of BS that post, there is only three reasons a post could have that much BS

1. you're not a liverpool fan and are just trolling
2. you're 12
3. you are in fact dunphy

oh you dont have any mental disabilities do you? coz then i'd feel bad tearing your post apart...

To be honest, your "rebuttals" to John's points are laughable. You're the one who comes across as 12 years of age.

Ardent · 12-02-2009 01:44PM

john47832 wrote: »

Theres is one good note for those here who dont know what a league title looks like - Torres seems to think the sun shines out from Benitez arse, why? I dont know and to be honest if it came down to Benitez leaving and Torres going with him then I'd rather he stayed...

I think that's the wrong attitude. No one player is bigger than the club. If it transpires that Benitez is not the right man for the job - and this should become finally obvious one way or another by the end of this season - then we should not let the threat of Torres leaving prevent the club from doing the right thing.

spockety · 12-02-2009 01:48PM

Ardent wrote: »

If it transpires that Benitez is not the right man for the job - and this should become finally obvious one way or another by the end of this season

End of the season?

To most Liverpool supporters we don't need to wait until the end of the season, we already know the answer. Benitez is the right man for the job.

Only fans with incredibly short term memories, or incredibly short sight would change their opinion on Benitez between February 2009, and May 2009. I mean, seriously, W.T.F.?

Based on where we are NOW, and what Rafa has done in his previous 4 years it would make a mockery of the club if Rafa was shoed out in May.

PiE · 12-02-2009 01:50PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/feb/12/daniel-agger-liverpool

Liverpool's prospects of losing Daniel Agger for a cut-price fee this summer have increased after the defender said he will not sign a new contract unless his first-team chances improve under Rafael Benítez.

The Denmark international is entitled to buy out the final 12 months of his Anfield deal at the end of this season for around £2m. Agger's failure to sign a contract extension has previously been blamed on a lack of communication with the Liverpool hierarchy, a charge levelled by Benítez himself, along with the player's financial demands.

Now the 24-year-old admits limited appearances this season are also a factor in his reluctance to commit his future to the club, and that he is likely to seek pastures new should Benítez persist with his favoured central defensive pairing of Jamie Carragher and Martin Skrtel. "Let me be honest and admit that, if I don't play, then it's untenable and it can't go on like that," said the Dane.

Agger has only enjoyed a consistent run this season after Skrtel suffered a cruciate ligament injury at Manchester City in October. The £5.8m signing from Brondby was restricted to two starts in 12 matches before the City game as he returned from a metatarsal injury, and has started only once – at Portsmouth on Saturday – since Skrtel reclaimed his place against Stoke City on 10 January.

The frustrated defender added: "It's never fun as a footballer when you don't play every time. That's no secret. But that's my situation in the club right now; that he [Benítez] won't let me play. That's not my decision. The question now is whether this is the right thing for me, because I would like to play some football. But for now I have chosen to give it some time and give it a chance and fight for my spot in the team. I feel I'm good enough. For the same reason it's annoying that I don't play.I'll wait for the chance and then I will prove that I'm good enough. I'll show them - no doubt about that."

SWAR · 12-02-2009 02:04PM

It would be an absolute disaster if Agger leaves in the summer...Cara hasn't got too many years left at the top and Skertel and Agger could be a solid defensive partnership for years to come...not looking likely though

mike65 · 12-02-2009 02:07PM

Agger must be told that Carras time as a guarenteed starter is nearly over (thats not herasy btw) and that he needs to be just a bit patient. Hyypia will be almost off the scene as well so he will get chances.

PiE · 12-02-2009 02:11PM

Agreed - Agger needs to be patient and accept that he hasn't done enough to dislodge Skrtel.

~Rebel~ · 12-02-2009 02:15PM

mike65 wrote: »

Agger must be told that Carras time as a guarenteed starter is nearly over (thats not herasy btw) and that he needs to be just a bit patient. Hyypia will be almost off the scene as well so he will get chances.

Indeed, i dont know why he's got such itchy feet, he's still going to be getting at least 30 starts over the year, and he's still young for a CB. The future is quite obviously him and Skrtel, so he should really be happy to just hang in there for the rest of this season and really go for it next year onwards...

Malice · 12-02-2009 02:16PM

I can't understand why the Agger contract situation hasn't been resolved. Could it be that he's looking for far too much money? He's got to realise that Carragher and Skrtel are first choice on merit and it's up to him to displace one or other of them. Carragher won't be at the top level forever (sadly) so if he continues to play as well as he's capable then there's no reason why he can't be a mainstay of the team for years to come.

mark renton · 12-02-2009 02:16PM

I would like to see him moved to a holding midfield role, he has the skill and the pasing range, and is also very useful going forward

kryogen · 12-02-2009 02:24PM

your hardly saying you want him to be picked as the holding midfielder ahead of Mascherano are you?

~Rebel~ · 12-02-2009 02:25PM

john47832 wrote: »

I would like to see him moved to a holding midfield role, he has the skill and the pasing range, and is also very useful going forward

While he does have the tools for the job, Alonso and Mascherano are definately better. Would find it harder to shift them then he would Carra and Skrtel i fear. Though as an occasional option it certainly is a possibility

mark renton · 12-02-2009 02:25PM

kryogen wrote: »

your hardly saying you want him to be picked as the holding midfielder ahead of Mascherano are you?

No - third choice, behing mascherano and Alonso

PiE · 12-02-2009 02:29PM

So instead of being unhappy at being 3rd choice CB, he can be delighted at being 3rd choice DM?

Think.

Karmafaerie · 12-02-2009 02:30PM

agger is making noises so he can put preassure on the owners for his money requests.
He wants more money, he's saying he may leave in order to get it.

(I hope!:()

mike65 · 12-02-2009 02:30PM

You just know an Italian club will make a generous wage offer.

mark renton · 12-02-2009 02:36PM

PiE wrote: »

So instead of being unhappy at being 3rd choice CB, he can be delighted at being 3rd choice DM?

Think.

For the rest of this season, third choice DM would tally up a number of games along with 3rd choice CB... He wants to play football, I say let him play.. He is the most promising player Liverpool have IMO. And who knows, DM could be his thing

MementoMori · 12-02-2009 02:43PM

To lose Agger especially at such a low price would be a disaster especially for the future. Carra is already 31 so it's not like he has a lot of years left. Also surely this is Sami's last season playing such an amount of games given his age. Part of the problem with Agger is that Hyypia has been in such good form this season and has played a lot, which might have caused Agger to feel he has fallen down the pecking order. The other thing is that there is not a lot between the four CBs

Mins played in the league this season

Carragher 2250
Skrtel 1002
Hyypia 906
Agger 900

From that it would look like he is fourth choice which is hardly likely to be the case going forward. Also the timing of his injuries didn't help either. Along with this at the start of the season if you'd asked who out of any of the CBs would be injured you'd probably have said Hyypia, then Carra with Skrtel and Agger least likely, which has turned out to be the opposite of what has happened.

If I were Rafa I would try and increase Agger's game time as much as possible i.e. there's no need for Carra to play every minute of every match so if it's possible a couple of sub appearances might help. Also Carra is on 3 yellows so you'd have to expect him to pick up two more before the end of the season. Surely Agger will be an auto-pick for that game. Also Rafa could explain to him that he expected to play him a lot more this season but it just hasnt worked out but that long-term the plan is to have him and Skrtel as the first-choice pairing.

I don't think the DM role is that much of a runner to be honest. Maybe for the odd game but long-term not really an option.

Also Juventus seem to have been linked to him pretty consistently the last few transfer windows. Maybe they were playing a long-term game?

I'd be hopeful this is part of negotiating a new contract but I'd be wary in case Coco is involved in the handling of this.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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