Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

redout · 08-02-2009 08:49PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

We dont know what? We Do know that Rijkaard's team had none of the fighting spirit that Peps does. We do know they didn't have the same work ethic of getting the ball back as soon as possible after losing it. We do know he wasn't the most adept at changing the system to cope with the unexpected.

We do also know what the system he did use as successful most of the time and produced beautiful footbal. But when that beautiful football didnt work, we know that he never really produced a workable plan B.

We dont know how he would manage Liverpool.

redout · 08-02-2009 08:50PM

Keane to avoid 'slagging match'

Sunday, 8 February 2009 13:00
Robbie Keane will retain his 'pride' with a dignified silence on his thoughts about Rafael Benitez, as he seeks to put his Liverpool debacle behind him.

The Republic of Ireland striker admits he found being left out of the Liverpool squad 'difficult to take' - but is refusing to respond to Reds boss Benitez's claim that he was unable to cope with the pressure of being an Anfield player.

Keane told BBC Radio 5 Live's Sportsweek: 'I'm one of those respectful persons - and I'm not getting into a slagging match.

'I've got more pride and dignity. I'll let people say what they want. I don't have to prove myself to anyone.'

Keane returned to Tottenham on the final day of the transfer window following six unhappy months on Merseyside.

'The most disappointing thing was getting left out of squad (at Liverpool),' he said.

'I found it difficult to take, because it's the first time it's happened.

'Since I've been playing from the age of 17, I've never been left out.

'But that's gone now. The good thing is I'm at a fantastic club with a fantastic manager who respects his players - if you are doing well he tells you. That's something I'm looking forward to.'

Keane, who scored just five goals in 19 Barclays Premier League appearances for the Reds before rejoining Spurs, added: 'I believe things happen for a reason.

'Things didn't work out. But I'm a Tottenham player now - and I'm looking forward to the challenge of keeping them in the Premiership.

'At the end of the day, I love playing football. I'm not one of these players who are happy to pick up the wages and sit in the stand.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0208/keaner.html

Is the high-lighted part true. Did Rafa say that ? First I heard of it.

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 08:52PM

redout wrote: »

We dont know how he would manage Liverpool.

no we dont but do you really see him going there and doing something completely different to what he did at Barca? Cause if he did, thats even worse! What he's proven to be good at IS creating a free flowing attacking team and thats what he should get Kudos for. If he came and then did something completely different to what he's built his managerial career on then whats the bloody point of hiring him?! Why hire a guy to do something he's never in his career proven good at in the hopes that maybe he'll be able to. You hire a guy to impose his strengths on your team.

jesus_thats_gre · 08-02-2009 08:53PM

Not sure, haven't seen the quote anywhere.

Saying that, it wouldn't surprise me if he did say something like that. I very much doubt he meant it that way that the article is inferring. I would liken it to the apparent small club jibe at Everton.

redout · 08-02-2009 08:55PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

no we dont but do you really see him going there and doing something completely different to what he did at Barca? Cause if he did, thats even worse! ?!

Well I would imagine he would have to do something different as Liverpool dont possess players of Barca's quality who can do the whole free-flowing thing.

jesus_thats_gre · 08-02-2009 08:58PM

redout wrote: »

Well I would imagine he would have to do something different as Liverpool dont possess players of Barca's quality who can do the whole free-flowing thing.

Where is this series of posts going? I have tried following your posts and the respective replies but I haven't got a clue what point you are trying to make? You just seem to have made up a hypothetical scenario and starting bull****ting..

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 09:00PM

redout wrote: »

Is the high-lighted part true. Did Rafa say that ? First I heard of it.

papers are largely just picking up on anythign they can so they can question the other party on it and build a little battle. What Rafa actually said was that at Liverpool there was massive expectation on him to perform to his highest level from the very start and this pressure may have been one of the factors in him not playing to his potential

"Sometimes, even with good players, they don't settle in at a new club or they have problems with systems or developing an understanding with other players.

"Another factor is that Liverpool are a different club from most. Expectations are really high, people are asking questions every week and the pressure is on all the time. Maybe that was why he found it so difficult.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11669_4892605,00.html

redout · 08-02-2009 09:03PM

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Where is this series of posts going? I have tried following your posts and the respective replies but I haven't got a clue what point you are trying to make? You just seem to have made up a hypothetical scenario and starting bull****ting..

Well excuse me I didnt start going on about the managers. I brought up the names when someone asked but did not mean to go on about but others kept mentioning it. Go read the thread.

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 09:03PM

redout wrote: »

Well I would imagine he would have to do something different as Liverpool dont possess players of Barca's quality who can do the whole free-flowing thing.

but then why would anyone want him in that job?! You've really lost me. Why would anyone want a guy at the club who wont have the tools at his disposal to do what he's proven to be a success at? Its like hiring a carpenter to do some plumbing because we have some wrenchs around the place...

redout wrote: »

Well excuse me I didnt start going on about the managers. I brought up the names when someone asked but did not mean to go on about but others kept mentioning it. Go read the thread.

you put in a snide little remark on someone else's post, so i answered saying i wasn't too sure where it was wrong, and you havent really answered..

redout · 08-02-2009 09:08PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

but then why would anyone want him in that job?! You've really lost me. Why would anyone want a guy at the club who wont have the tools at his disposal to do what he's proven to be a success at? Its like hiring a carpenter to do some plumbing because we have some wrenchs around the place...

Thats bollox in fairness. The man can only play one way so says you. He could take over another team and adopt a whole different approach for all you know .

you put in a snide little remark on someone else's post, so i asked you to explain where it was exactly that they were wrong...you still haven't...

Thats because he just did a quick lookup on wiki and slapped it together. Why did he not mention it a couple of hours earlier we we were first talking about it ?

,,,,

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 09:12PM

redout wrote: »

Thats bollox in fairness. The man can only play one way so says you. He could take over another team and adopt a whole different approach for all you know .

He MAY be able to do amazing other things, but thus far in his career he hasn't done it. You've already agreed that what he HAD done successfully at other clubs wouldn't work at Liverpool, so why in gods name should that risk be taken? His team NEEDED another approach when they were struggling, particularly last year, and he was unable to provide one. Not the man i'd particularly want in charge of the team i follow unless we can give him the tools to do what he's good at. He MAY be able to do amazing things, in the same way that Rafa MAY be able to create an amazing free flowing attacking slick machine, but i wouldn't go betting my house on it.

Thats because he just did a quick lookup on wiki and slapped it together. Why did he not mention it a couple of hours earlier we we were first talking about it ?

then you should be applauding him. He took the time to educate himself on an argument and came back with his new points. You haven't given me any situations to back up yours.

redout · 08-02-2009 10:10PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

You haven't given me any situations to back up yours.

I dont get it. What are you on about ?

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 10:14PM

redout wrote: »

I dont get it. What are you on about ?

Well, you suggested a manager, another person and myself said why that person may not be suited for it, you just slated the other persons opinion rather then actually arguing back where you disagreed with them. As a rule on a message board, users back up their opinions with something, like examples of a time he made a change in formation that made them harder to break down or something. Something like that could convince someone like me that maybe he would be suited to the job. I provided my opinion that i've never seen him do such a thing, often when needed like last season, or against pool in the champions league.

redout · 08-02-2009 10:39PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Well, you suggested a manager, another person and myself said why that person may not be suited for it, you just slated the other persons opinion rather then actually arguing back where you disagreed with them. As a rule on a message board, users back up their opinions with something, like examples of a time he made a change in formation that made them harder to break down or something. Something like that could convince someone like me that maybe he would be suited to the job. I provided my opinion that i've never seen him do such a thing, often when needed like last season, or against pool in the champions league.

He didnt give an opinion to start with. All he done was give a "LoL". Then he came back about three and a half hours later and said Barca were succeeding and it had nothing to do with the manager ! I dont even get that to be honest and its bull. Another thing about Barca is that Ronaldinho, Deco were dropped because of off the field antics which eventully led to them being sold.

Now for example if Pool lost Torres and Gerrard two of their best because of similar would you expect them to perform the same ? The dropping of them two was not the sole cause of Barca's performance last season but it most certainly made things worse. Ronaldinho was becoming a big disruption to the dressing room. Them two players cant be replaced by players of the same calibre in fairness. If you expect Rijkaard to work miracles after losing them two plus Messi not being fully fit all of the time and not being at the level he is this season then you are not being reasonable. I wouldnt expect Rafa to be able to do the any better if the above two were out.

I really dont know why I am wasting my time talking about this except for the fact that the other poster just used a "LoL" to dismiss both Rijkaard and Mancini and backed it up with nothing and that kind of pissed me off.

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 10:46PM

redout wrote: »

He didnt give an opinion to start with. All he done was give a "LoL". Then he came back about three and a half hours later and said Barca were succeeding and it had nothing to do with the manager ! I dont even get that to be honest and its bull. Another thing about Barca is that Ronaldinho, Deco were dropped because of off the field antics which eventully led to them being sold.

Now for example if Pool lost Torres and Gerrard two of their best because of similar would you expect them to perform the same ? The dropping of them two was not the sole cause of Barca's performance last season but it most certainly made things worse. Ronaldinho was becoming a big disruption to the dressing room. Them two players cant be replaced by players of the same calibre in fairness. If you expect Rijkaard to work miracles after losing them two plus Messi not being fully fit all of the time and not being at the level he is this season then you are not being reasonable. I wouldnt expect Rafa to be able to do the any better if the above two were out.

My major criticism of the man is that when this happened, he seemed to just plow on with the same system rather then changing it around to suit the strengths of who he had. This is also why id worry about him at liverpool, just trying to do the same thing without the players for that system. Barca still had a savage team without the troublemakers, but imo he didn't get the best out of them as he just stuck with what he knew.

I really dont know why I am wasting my time talking about this except for the fact that the other poster just used a "LoL" to dismiss both Rijkaard and Mancini and backed it up with nothing and that kind of pissed me off.

This is exactly what annoyed me about your response to him, and then again about your reply to me. Especially the ":rolleyes:" despite not answering the points i'd raised.

K-9 · 08-02-2009 10:49PM

Was looking for the Liverpool thread there. Sorry, must be lost.

redout · 08-02-2009 10:52PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

This is exactly what annoyed me about your response to him, and then again about your reply to me. Especially the ":rolleyes:" despite not answering the points i'd raised.

I gave the chap plenty of responses before you even became involved in the conversation in fairness. Go back about four or five pages and you will see these.

redout wrote: »

Are you for real ?

Mancini has won 3 Serie A titles and 4 Coppa Italia in his seven years as a manager.

Rijkaard won 2 la liga's and the Champions league at Barca.

The fact you LoL at this means you are clueless brother !

redout wrote: »

Ok so then every manager who wins does so because they have great players ! Didnt Greece win Euro 2004 ? A team can only beat those who are put in front of them brother.

redout wrote: »

How could you possibly know that ? Simple you cant. All you can do is offer what you consider to be what would be the situation. One of those guys could just as easily have Pool top of the league. We dont know and can only speculate.

Chardee MacDennis · 08-02-2009 10:58PM

so Real Madrid game coming up in just over two weeks, not looking forward to it for a couple of reasons. firstly its a distraction from our domestic campaign, coming in between the Man City and Boro games. secondly Madrid are in a rich vein of form - winning the last 7 games (while only conceding 1) and with two winnable games coming up in Sporting Gijon away and Betis at home. unlike when we drew them in December they are a Ramos has got them playing some good organised football.

i am definitely not as conifdent about the game as I was when we drew them, we'll have to step up our recent performance to ensure a victory. How do people think we'll do?

redout · 08-02-2009 11:02PM

BastardPrince wrote: »

so Real Madrid game coming up in just over two weeks, not looking forward to it for a couple of reasons. firstly its a distraction from our domestic campaign, coming in between the Man City and Boro games. secondly Madrid are in a rich vein of form - winning the last 7 games (while only conceding 1) and with two winnable games coming up in Sporting Gijon away and Betis at home. unlike when we drew them in December they are a Ramos has got them playing some good organised football.

i am definitely not as conifdent about the game as I was when we drew them, we'll have to step up our recent performance to ensure a victory. How do people think we'll do?

I watch Real every week. I was at the Deportivo game two weeks back and yes they have seven victories but they are not playing football that will worry Liverpool. They have been pretty poor to be honest and the press here are now labelling them boring. From what I have seen I would not be too worried at all and I dont think Rafa will be either.

~Rebel~ · 08-02-2009 11:09PM

redout wrote: »

I gave the chap plenty of responses before you even became involved in the conversation in fairness. Go back about four or five pages and you will see these.

thats fine, but it still doesnt really make it any better for you to then come back with the same quick snipe that so annoyed you first. Also no need for the ":rolleyes:" in response to me either. Thats the type of thing that continuously ruins this thread. What we all want surely are reasoned debates.

Anywho we've probably discussed this one as far as its gonna go, im still of the belief that Rijkaard has yet to show he has what it takes to adapt to managing a team like liverpool. I take your point that he lost the use of some of his best players, but imo he didn't adapt to this loss well enough. He's far from a bad manager, just not in Rafa's class imo.

On the madrid games, yeah they'll be tough alright, things have changed in madrid since we drew them, but I am lookin forward to them too. Should be a great clash of styles, and i still fancy pool's to prevail

coco06 · 08-02-2009 11:18PM

just watching MOTD2 and realized Babel seems to be told to take over from Keane and miss sitters! Not good for his confidence.

redout · 08-02-2009 11:19PM

Fair point. Lets put this thing to rest as I am tired of it and never meant for it to go as so.

K-9 · 08-02-2009 11:20PM

coco06 wrote: »

just watching MOTD2 and realized Babel seems to be told to take over from Keane and miss sitters! Not good for his confidence.

Jaysus, it was bad. Adams gone in the morning. Madness.

rosboy · 08-02-2009 11:51PM

I looked back over the last 5 pages and didn't see this posted, so have a read of the below excerpt from Paul Tomkins latest article. It relates to the Liverpool's dependence on Torres and Gerrard, as opposed to Man U's dependence on Rooney and Ronaldo.

United rely on Ronaldo and Rooney more than Reds rely on Gerrard and Torres

(Excerpt taken from article submitted to www.liverpoolfc.tv –– thought the stats were so incredible it was worth sharing with those who don't read the official site. PT Feb 8th 2009)

...Again, I ask people to go check Manchester United’s results without Ronaldo and Rooney. And again, I ask people to see how many games Liverpool have won without Torres and Gerrard this season.

If you can’t check, let me do it for you: United lost five league games last season. Rooney missed four of them, Ronaldo missed three, and they did not play together in any of those defeats. Of these opponents, only Chelsea were a team in the top eight, so it’s not skewed by difficult games.

In the 12 league matches Rooney did not start, United’s accrued a 69-point average when extrapolated over 38 games, as opposed to the 87 they actually racked up. In the seven games Ronaldo did not start, the average would have made an even worse total: 65 points. Or the tally that saw Everton finish 5th.

Shockingly, in the four games in which neither started –– against Manchester City, Bolton, Sunderland and Spurs (again, no giants, but admittedly one derby) –– they dropped half of the available points: meaning an average of 57 if extrapolated over 38 games. Or equivalent to finishing 8th, like Portsmouth.

(Also, of the three league games Ronaldo missed at the start of this season, United dropped five points, which is the form of a mid-table side.)

Yes, United have other good players all over the pitch, but do these facts not suggest that they are overly reliant on their best two attacking players?

While United have coped well in the last few games without Rooney, without either him and/or Ronaldo on a regular basis, the form book suggests that they are not a title-winning side. Indeed, far from it.

(Of course, if United did not have these players on a very regular basis, or indeed at all, they’d try to buy similar replacements; just as Liverpool obviously would in the case of Torres and Gerrard.)

Now look at Liverpool without Torres and Gerrard this season.

Gerrard has failed to start four league games –– Villa, United, Fulham and Portsmouth. Two of those are clearly very tough fixtures, against top-three sides. Two were at home, two away. And yet Liverpool’s record is won two, drawn two. Over 38 league games, that is worth an impressive 76 points.

Due to injury, Torres has failed to start no fewer than 15 league games. These resulted in ten wins, four draws and just one defeat. Over a 38 game season, that ratio would earn an incredible 86 points. That is a title-winning tally; last year United got 87, but needed only 86.

Perhaps due to Torres playing at least half a dozen games when lacking sharpness, Liverpool have actually fared better without him; with him starting, the Reds have won five and drawn five, which is 76 points in terms of form over 38 games. (Though he did win the weekend’s game from the bench.)

It gets even more amazing. In each of the two league games Liverpool started without both Torres and Gerrard, the Reds won: against United and Pompey. It’s only two games, of course, but it’s a 100% record. Or 114 points over the course of a season! (Silly, I know, when based on such a small sample, but a 100% record is a 100% record.)

Yes, these are statistics – but then league tables are formed from similar statistics relating to win, lose or draw, which are the most important kind. And yes, United’s figures are based on last season (when they won the title) and Liverpool’s this season (as they challenge for it). Even so, it’s valid.

But even I was shocked at how remarkably disparate the win/lose/draw statistics were. I’m no genius; I just sat down and bothered to check some team sheets and calculate some figures, rather than just make ignorant assumptions like the McPundits.

So why are Liverpool the team perceived to rely on just two players? Why does someone like Tim Sherwood say that United don’t rely on their key men and Liverpool do?

Why isn’t the truth –– that United cannot seem to cope very well without Ronaldo, and certainly not well at all without both him and Rooney –– more well known?

Why isn’t Rafa praised for getting so many great results without his key men this season, rather than just constantly criticised?

Why isn’t Ferguson accused of being lucky or relying on Rooney and Ronaldo to get him out of trouble?

I’ll leave you (and anyone in the media who reads this) to draw your own conclusions. But based on these figures, if I were Alex Ferguson and United lost Rooney and Ronaldo to serious injury,

http://tomkins-blogs.typepad.com/paul_tomkins_blog/

LuckyLloyd · 09-02-2009 01:13AM

That exchange was painful to read. Everyone, please remember to be civil when posting - even if you are debating someone you disagree with.

And redout, going to wiki (or anywhere) to check up on some facts to support a particular post or argument is something that should be encouraged - not dismissed.

Rijkaard was in charge when we beat them over two legs in the Champions league in 2007, right? And they had Ronaldinhio et al in the team at that point also, correct?

redout · 09-02-2009 01:53AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And redout, going to wiki (or anywhere) to check up on some facts to support a particular post or argument is something that should be encouraged - not dismissed.

Rijkaard was in charge when we beat them over two legs in the Champions league in 2007, right? And they had Ronaldinhio et al in the team at that point also, correct?

Yes thats correct. That would be the tie you lot won on away goals and were beaten at anfield after a fortunate win in Barcelona helped by an OG by Barca keeper Valdes. Didnt Deco smack the post at the death with a free-kick. Lucky boys. Everyone knows Pool know how to shut teams out in Europe.

As regards using wiki I dont have a problem. My gripe was more to do with fact it came three and a half hours after his "LoL" which gave no reasons. The guy was online after so I was a bit miffed as to the delay.

el rabitos · 09-02-2009 02:04AM

redout wrote: »

That would be the tie you lot won on away goals and were beaten at anfield after a fortunate win in Barcelona helped by an OG by Barca keeper Valdes. Didnt Deco smack the post at the death with a free-kick. Lucky boys.

everyone knows liverpool are just lucky. even says so on wikipedia somewhere

LuckyLloyd · 09-02-2009 02:08AM

redout wrote: »

Yes thats correct. That would be the tie you lot won on away goals and were beaten at anfield after a fortunate win in Barcelona helped by an OG by Barca keeper Valdes. Didnt Deco smack the post at the death with a free-kick. Lucky boys. Everyone knows Pool know how to shut teams out in Europe.

Barca did indeed hit the post towards the end of that game, and Ronaldinhio missed a sitter at another point aswell. However, if we're results orientated, it was just another example of Benitez advancing over two legs despite working with a lessor squad on paper. Capello, Rijkaard and Mourinho are some of the scalps Benitez has under his belt in that format.

And then you are left asking the question about whether Benitez winning La Liga twice and a Uefa Cup while at Valencia is a more notable accomplishment than what Rijkaard managed at Barcelona? If you conclude that it is, then you are able to make an argument that Benitez has an edge tactically in once off encounters and has a better league pedigree. Which ultimately may mean that he is > Rijkaard.

We could analyze and compare a lot of managers to him in such a fashion. And my belief is that, if we were to, aside from Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho and possibly Hiddink replacing Benitez would equate to a downgrade in the managerial position at the club.

If you don't agree with that last sentence, then you may agree with the following:

Aside from Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger and (possibly) Hiddink there is no current managers working in the game today who are clearly and unquestionably better than Benitez.

eagle eye · 09-02-2009 02:12AM

I think Livepool under Rafa Benitez thrive in big games. They have beaten the all the best sides and not through luck but by outplaying them.

I keep saying the same thing, when Benitez decides to have a go every week against defensive sides, Liverpool will be in serious contention for a League title. This siting back and hoping to get the goal just does not work and its about time Rafa got that through his thick skull.

As far as someone replacing him, I don't think its near the time to be asking that question, but to say he is irreplaceable is just plain wrong also. And the same applies to all managers.

redout · 09-02-2009 02:18AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Barca did indeed hit the post towards the end of that game, and Ronaldinhio missed a sitter at another point aswell. However, if we're results orientated, it was just another example of Benitez advancing over two legs despite working with a lessor squad on paper. Capello, Rijkaard and Mourinho are some of the scalps Benitez has under his belt in that format.

And then you are left asking the question about whether Benitez winning La Liga twice and a Uefa Cup while at Valencia is a more notable accomplishment than what Rijkaard managed at Barcelona? If you conclude that it is, then you are able to make an argument that Benitez has an edge tactically in once off encounters and has a better league pedigree. Which ultimately may mean that he is > Rijkaard.

We could analyze and compare a lot of managers to him in such a fashion. And my belief is that, if we were to, aside from Wenger, Ferguson, Mourinho and possibly Hiddink replacing Benitez would equate to a downgrade in the managerial position at the club.

If you don't agree with that last sentence, then you may agree with the following:

Aside from Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger and (possibly) Hiddink there is no current managers working in the game today who are clearly and unquestionably better than Benitez.

I think that Benitez is a knock-out king to be honest. Very good in cup competitions. As for the manager accusations I think there are a few others who could be added to that list of yours notably Lippi, Ancelotti, Hitzfeld and Del Bosque. All won at least two champions leagues except Lippi even though he was in four finals ! But he won a world cup so.......

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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