The Flood - Christian Only Thread

Zombrex · 14-01-2009 10:42pm #1

In the spirit of listening to Christians for once (:pac:) rather than simply assuming I know what they believe, I've a question

What is being described by the Flood story in Genesis?

This comes some what on the heel of the Biblical interpretation discussion taking place on A&A, about how the Bible stories are interpreted and what the authors themselves meant and believed.

What do you guys believe the Flood story is referencing, a real event described literally in the Bible, a myth or metaphor describing God's justice but not referencing something that actually took place, or some where in the middle such as a local flooding that is used as an example but given the Hollywood treatment as it where.

Or something else entirely.

And for the Biblical scholars out there, what did the authors mean/believe?

If they believed it was a literal event is this a mistake in the Bible? Is there an explanation that means it wasn't. Does that matter, does it effect other historic events and how we should interpret them.

Christian only thread please, this is a genuine attempt at understanding what you guys believe.

I'm sure us atheists will beat you over the head with that later, but not in this thread please

BrianCalgary · 14-01-2009 11:00pm

I'll try and answer.

Complete flood over all the Earth.
The lesson is that God is serious about letting us choose His way or the highway.

Also that He is all about giving second chances.

PDN · 15-01-2009 12:19am

I believe that the flood was a literal event and that Noah and his family were literal individuals. I think that it is clear that the author(s) intended the account to be understood as history.

I am open to the possibility that the flood was a localised event rather than the entire planet. Phrases such as 'the whole earth' may refer to the known world of that time or to that part of the world that was inhabited by the descendants of Seth.

Fanny Cradock · 15-01-2009 12:27am

Yeah, I would subscribe to the localised event myself. Is there any evidence for a world wide flood?

Anyway, I would have much more trouble with the "2 of each kind" story and the logistics involved in creating a vessel to carry them all.

BrianCalgary · 15-01-2009 12:33am

Here's a link to a guy in Holland who built a scale replica.

http://www.pbase.com/paulthedane/noahs_ark

studiorat · 15-01-2009 12:42am

If I may. The story of Noahs Ark isn't an exclusively Christian story. It's in lots of religions. The Mandaeans regard Noah as a prophet, while rejecting Abraham (and Jesus) as false prophets. There's even a story in Irish Mythology about Noahs son who came to Ireland!!

Of course I've no opinion on the matter.

15-01-2009 1:25am

(Sorry for dragging this thread slightly off topic Wicknight; by all means answer Wicknights question first, then get around to mine!)

The story of Jonah and the great fish.

What do you guys believe (again, just Christians)?

Do you believe it to be literal fact? Or is it a metaphor for something else? I know the story in the Bible, but, I haven't read anything else into it. I just want to hear honest opinions about it. Thanks.

(And this isn't a trap, I'm not going to retaliate like I would in a typical atheist thread!)

PDN · 15-01-2009 10:27am

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

(Sorry for dragging this thread slightly off topic Wicknight; by all means answer Wicknights question first, then get around to mine!)

The story of Jonah and the great fish.

What do you guys believe (again, just Christians)?

Do you believe it to be literal fact? Or is it a metaphor for something else? I know the story in the Bible, but, I haven't read anything else into it. I just want to hear honest opinions about it. Thanks.

(And this isn't a trap, I'm not going to retaliate like I would in a typical atheist thread!)

I believe that the Book of Jonah is a literal account of what happened to a literal prophet named Jonah who was swallowed by either a great fish or a whale. It is indeed quoted in the New Testament as a metaphor for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but the language and type of literature, in my opinion, also make it certain that the account was intended to be taken as historical fact by its first readers.

I also believe that Jonah may not have survived alive in the belly of the whale for three days, but may well have died and then been miraculously raised from the dead.

There is an urban legend which used to be repeated by credulous preachers, and listened to by even more credulous hearers, about a sailor called Josiah Bartlett who was swallowed by a sperm whale off the Falklands (Malvinas?

) and survived, thereby supposedly confirming the story of Jonah. Total bunk, of course, but I always wondered why any preacher would think that such an event would affect the credibility of Jonah's miraculous experiences.

studiorat · 15-01-2009 11:37am

Josiah Bartlett was one of the "founding fathers" AFAIK.

James Bartley was supposedly an apprentice on a whaling ship in 1891. The story was merely a sailor’s yarn that got published as a true story so many times, it was accepted as fact.

He's buried in Gloucester where he lived until his death in 1909. His tombstone allegedly reads: “James Bartley – 1870-1909 … A modern Jonah.”

While you are looking at the Jonah story though it would be wise to look at how far Nineveh is from the coast.

PDN · 15-01-2009 11:40am

studiorat wrote: »

Josiah Bartlett was one of the "founding fathers" AFAIK.

Ooops! That's where quoting stuff from memory without checking the facts gets you.

studiorat · 15-01-2009 11:44am

PDN wrote: »

Ooops! That's where quoting stuff from memory without checking the facts gets you.

nevermind
could happen to a bishop.;)

Fanny Cradock · 15-01-2009 11:54am

PDN wrote: »

There is an urban legend which used to be repeated by credulous preachers, and listened to by even more credulous hearers, about a sailor called Josiah Bartlett who was swallowed by a sperm whale off the Falklands (Malvinas? ) and survived, thereby supposedly confirming the story of Jonah. Total bunk, of course, but I always wondered why any preacher would think that such an event would affect the credibility of Jonah's miraculous experiences.

Is this the same chap (whatever his name) Melville talks of in the tedious Moby Dick?

studiorat · 15-01-2009 12:00pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Is this the same chap Melville talks of in the tedious Moby Dick?

Blasphemer!!!!

Moby Dick was written in 1851 I think. I believe Melville did work as a whaler out of Nantucket so he would probably have heard such a story along the way. Can't remember if it's mentioned in Moby Dick.

However there is an interesting story of "Sag Harbour" an old sea dog type with his ancient bible trying to reconcile his religion with his knowledge of whales concerning the Johana story. Page 83. I have it beside me as we speak.

Fanny Cradock · 15-01-2009 12:02pm

studiorat wrote: »

Blasphemer!!!!

Moby Dick was written in 1851 I think. I believe Melville did work as a whaler out of Nantucket so he would probably have heard such a story along the way. Can't remember if it's mentioned in Moby Dick.

However there is an interesting story of "Sag Harbour" an old sea dog type with his ancient bible trying to reconcile his religion with his knowledge of whales concerning the Johana story. Page 83. I have it beside me as we speak.

A horrible, horrible book. I'm usually a fairly fast reader, but that literally took me months to read.

studiorat · 15-01-2009 12:22pm

It's pretty dense and he tends to go off on one every now and again, but I think it's worth the effort. It wasn't particularly popular when it came out either. Because it does go off on tangents it is something you can pick up and just open and read though.

homer911 · 15-01-2009 2:01pm

to get this back on track: Literal flood, whole earth. Dont ask me how - thats where faith comes in -Whats that quote about all things being explained in the end - we will all have lots of questions!

Zombrex · 15-01-2009 2:02pm

I'm telling you you can't start a thread on this forum without it being dragged off topic ... :pac::D

15-01-2009 5:10pm

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm telling you you can't start a thread on this forum without it being dragged off topic ... :pac::D

Sorry, that's my fault it was dragged off! I wanted to ask Christians about Jonah, but thought starting a new thread was pointless when there was a similar one here. I apologise!:pac:

JimiTime · 15-01-2009 5:26pm

Literal flood. Whether it was localised or worldwide, I don't know.

Jonah, Literal too.

Húrin · 17-01-2009 6:26pm

Wicknight wrote: »

What is being described by the Flood story in Genesis?

I think it's psycho-history. Essentially a moral fable.

God sees that “the earth has become filled with violence” through the acts of humans, and that the solution is to eliminate this virus, by a deluge. His one faithful follower, Noah, is saved. In contrast to the pride and violence flooding his society, he obeys God’s instructions. It teaches the moral value of humility instead of pride.

It also has an eschatological parallel with Jesus' claim that those who believe in him will be saved while those who do not will be destroyed.

However I do not have the expertise to rule out more literal interpretations, except those who claim it was a worldwide flood.

Zombrex · 20-01-2009 9:04pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Literal flood. Whether it was localised or worldwide, I don't know.

Just a quick question for clarification

Do those who entertain that the flood may have been a local flood, rather than a world wide flooding of the entire Earth's surface, still believe that all human life (bar Noah) was wiped out by the flood?

PDN · 21-01-2009 12:34am

Wicknight wrote: »

Just a quick question for clarification

Do those who entertain that the flood may have been a local flood, rather than a world wide flooding of the entire Earth's surface, still believe that all human life (bar Noah) was wiped out by the flood?

Yes, I would think it was probably all humanity, bar Noah and his family.

Galvasean · 21-01-2009 3:09am

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Here's a link to a guy in Holland who built a scale replica.

http://www.pbase.com/paulthedane/noahs_ark

Half the lenght and one third the width. Has no on built a more accurate one?

MatthewVII · 21-01-2009 8:17am

PDN wrote: »

Yes, I would think it was probably all humanity, bar Noah and his family.

Does that not raise all sorts of questions about the diversity of modern human genetics?

PDN · 21-01-2009 10:19am

MatthewVII wrote: »

Does that not raise all sorts of questions about the diversity of modern human genetics?

In the spirit of the OP I would suggest a separate thread if you want to discuss that further. This thread is specifically to clarify what different Christians actually believe, not trying to pick holes in those beliefs.

I don't pretend to know much about genetics, and what questions that might raise. My understanding is that genetics indicate we are all descended from Mitochondrial Eve who is estimated to have lived about 140,000 years ago, and Y-chromosomal Adam who is estimated to have lived around 60,000 years ago. Diversity among races etc would therefore be superficial and, in terms of the age of the earth, fairly recent. The Scripture does not indicate any date for the Flood, so I don't see that there is necessarily any conflict.

As I said, if you want to discuss genetics further then feel free to start a thread on it.

Zombrex · 21-01-2009 11:10am

PDN wrote: »

As I said, if you want to discuss genetics further then feel free to start a thread on it.

Agreed, I would be interested in that discussion myself, but this thread is simply to find out what Christians believe, without having to justify that belief.

Fanny Cradock · 21-01-2009 1:27pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Just a quick question for clarification

Do those who entertain that the flood may have been a local flood, rather than a world wide flooding of the entire Earth's surface, still believe that all human life (bar Noah) was wiped out by the flood?

I don't know, TBH. I suppose that a localised flood could have been big enough to wipe out most of humanity if it was early enough in our lineage. I seem to remember a catching about 5 minutes of a National Geographic programme that discussed a 'localised' flood that was on staggering scale. Now I'm not saying this was the flood as mentioned in Genesis, but there does seem to be a history of massive flooding.

JimiTime · 21-01-2009 1:44pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Just a quick question for clarification

Do those who entertain that the flood may have been a local flood, rather than a world wide flooding of the entire Earth's surface, still believe that all human life (bar Noah) was wiped out by the flood?

There is no doubt that Genesis says all folk accept those in the ark. If it was a worldwide flood, then I'd wonder why it said all folk were wiped out, if in fact all folk were not wiped out. Though I'm open to question and for correction, I've always believed it was worldwide, and everyone except Noah and co were destroyed.

Húrin · 22-01-2009 2:07am

PDN wrote: »

Yes, I would think it was probably all humanity, bar Noah and his family.

Well, given the sophistication of the shipbuilding, and the large volume of wood needed, it likely occured in an agricultural civilisation. It thus could not have happened more than about 8,000 years ago. If all people save Noah and family were wiped out in a flood of that time, then how did the flood miss the inhabitants of the Americas, who migrated there around 30,000 years ago (via Alaska)?

PDN · 22-01-2009 9:30am

Húrin wrote: »

Well, given the sophistication of the shipbuilding, and the large volume of wood needed, it likely occured in an agricultural civilisation. It thus could not have happened more than about 8,000 years ago. If all people save Noah and family were wiped out in a flood of that time, then how did the flood miss the inhabitants of the Americas, who migrated there around 30,000 years ago (via Alaska)?

I don't agree with you about the 8,000 year thing at all. I would think it was much longer ago than that, long before any humans made it to the Americas.

Húrin · 23-01-2009 1:32am

PDN wrote: »

I don't agree with you about the 8,000 year thing at all. I would think it was much longer ago than that, long before any humans made it to the Americas.

Well, given the sophistication of the shipbuilding, and the large volume of wood needed, it likely occured in an agricultural civilisation. Writing would also be required in order to record the events. Neither agriculture (which happens before Noah in Genesis 2:15 and 3:17) nor writing existed 30,000 years ago.

Of course you think that it happened longer ago than that - your interpretation demands that it happened much longer ago than I am suggesting.

The Flood - Christian Only Thread

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