The Problem with Rafa Benitez...

deisedevil · 22-01-2009 01:55PM

Reganio 2 wrote: »

If Fergie hadn't won the Premiership however many times and the Champions League however many times would he still be manager?

Silly question

Fergie is manager for as long as he is because of the success he has brought to the club. My point was that without the CL what has Benitez brought, an FA cup. I think that without that CL win he would have been let go before now.
Not silly at all!

Ardent · 22-01-2009 01:56PM

Chessplayer: I agree with pretty much everything you say, you make some good points. Unfortunately, you will be - and already have been - attacked by the virulent Rafa-Can-Do-No-Wrong brigade. These are people who have nothing better to do in their jobs all day than to sit on this forum and attack anyone criticises the setup at LFC. Ignore them, they don't even provide a decent counter-argument so you shouldn't waste your time with them.

Back to your original post. I agree with you that Benitez may need to be replaced, I too have run out of patience with the guy, but I think we should wait until the end of the season before judging him. He's still in with a shot of winning the title.

The problems I see with the man are as follows:

- Has not shown a capacity to adapt to the English league after almost 5 seasons in charge
- Is too cautious, i.e., he likes to construct teams he thinks will nullify the opposition first and foremost; this is fine for Europe but does not work over 38 games in the Premiership
- Has a stubborn streak when it comes to tactics, substitutions, team selections etc. For example, how Dirk Kuyt is an ever-present in the team despite being routinely poor is inexplicable (it's also unfair on other members of the squad)
- Has a penchant for falling out with players which sees their form and confidence suffer immensely or sees them sold again in the next transfer window
- His performance in the transfer market is more miss than hit, e.g., £31M for Babel and Keane and they struglle to get a game (Dirk Kuyt for £11M!).
- They used to call Claudio Ranieri "Tinkerman" - I think that title should now belong to Benitez, his rotation policy has often been bemoaned in the press in recent years.
- His routine use of the press to air the club's dirty laundry is very much against the Liverpool Way

As I said, we should wait until the end of the season. Benitez started this season saying that it was the first season where he had a squad resembling what he required. Unfortunately, we have been largely poor this season and, only for some fortuitous comebacks in the first quarter of the season, we would be out of the race already. If we do now continue in the same vein and fall away badly from the title race (which I predict we will) then the club should really call time.

As for prospective replacement managers, I would be happy with anyone from: Hiddink, Mourinho, O'Neill. You feel with O'Neill in particular - if he had our players at his disposal - that he would canter to the title. You just have to see how Villa are flying right now and how their players are loving their football. The same players start every week and there's an understanding between them that's sorely lacking at Liverpool. Not sure how he would do in Europe but I think he'd be fine.

Headshot · 22-01-2009 01:56PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Anyways I'm not contributing to this anymore. I'm just reporting it and hope it gets locked. I've more respect for the real Liverpool fans than to be a part of this troll thread.

eagle eye wrote: »

Bah, I have to answer this though.

Alex Ferguson was seven years at United before he won a League. And he was almost gone but for an FA Cup win in 1990, four years after he joined the club. Thats all he won in his first six years, one FA Cup.

lmfao

Mr Alan · 22-01-2009 01:57PM

Is this thread for ****ing real?

whoever spouted the ****e about Utd being blighted by injuries are oblivious to the fact that Torres has missed most of the season, Skrtel has missed a lot of the season, Gerrard was out for a few weeks after an operation.....seriously this thread should be ****ing locked. Retarded thread.

If i'm not mistaken this thread has been put here cause Liverpool, who came 4th last season, are not running away with the PL title......****ing retarded.

eagle eye · 22-01-2009 01:57PM

{(-_-)}HeadShoT** wrote: »

lmfao

made an error there, first five years.

PiE · 22-01-2009 01:58PM

deisedevil wrote: »

Now he publicly brings up his contract negotiations, is any of his recent ventures into the media really to the benefit of Pool or is it to the benefit of Rafa?

Or maybe, just maybe you can get your head around the idea that it was for the benefit of our club captain who went and got himself arrested? How many news stories have there been about that incident since Rafa opened up?

He put himself in the firing line to protect the captain and the squad knowing full well that he'd be ridiculed and targeted but I doubt he expected our own supporters to be as idiotic. If he left now I would have no complaints, he deserves better than this sort of utter rubbish.

Boggles · 22-01-2009 02:03PM

PiE wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe you can get your head around the idea that it was for the benefit of our club captain who went and got himself arrested? How many news stories have there been about that incident since Rafa opened up?

He put himself in the firing line to protect the captain and the squad knowing full well that he'd be ridiculed and targeted but I doubt he expected our own supporters to be as idiotic.

Do you actually believe that?

deisedevil · 22-01-2009 02:06PM

PiE wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe you can get your head around the idea that it was for the benefit of our club captain who went and got himself arrested? How many news stories have there been about that incident since Rafa opened up?

He put himself in the firing line to protect the captain and the squad knowing full well that he'd be ridiculed and targeted but I doubt he expected our own supporters to be as idiotic. If he left now I would have no complaints, he deserves better than this sort of utter rubbish.

HAHAHAHA! Other Pool fans reading this must be groaning with embarrassment. STFU!

Melion · 22-01-2009 02:06PM

Why are proper Liverpool fans even replying to this utter bóllox?

Edit: Referring to the thread, not the OP

Ardent · 22-01-2009 02:08PM

PiE wrote: »

Or maybe, just maybe you can get your head around the idea that it was for the benefit of our club captain who went and got himself arrested? How many news stories have there been about that incident since Rafa opened up?

He put himself in the firing line to protect the captain and the squad knowing full well that he'd be ridiculed and targeted but I doubt he expected our own supporters to be as idiotic.

Are you for real? That's probably the stupidest thing I have ever read in my life. Seriously, how long did it take you to make that up?

Mr Alan · 22-01-2009 02:13PM

Ardent wrote: »

I too have run out of patience with the guy, but I think we should wait until the end of the season before judging him. He's still in with a shot of winning the title.

yet you have run out of patience? presumably because we are not clear leaders? you are an embarrasment to Liverpool fans.

Ardent wrote: »

- Has not shown a capacity to adapt to the English league after almost 5 seasons in charge

despite improving points tallys every year, undoubtedly stronger teams & record PL points tallys for our club.

Ardent wrote: »

Is too cautious, i.e., he likes to construct teams he thinks will nullify the opposition first and foremost; this is fine for Europe but does not work over 38 games in the Premiership

ya might wanna tell Jose Mourinho that who won two PL titles with a similar approach. Or perhaps Barca & Real who lost out on two league titles to Rafas Valencia team.

Ardent wrote: »

- Has a stubborn streak when it comes to tactics, substitutions, team selections etc. For example, how Dirk Kuyt is an ever-present in the team despite being routinely poor is inexplicable (it's also unfair on other members of the squad)

Like who? Jermaine Pennant? :rolleyes:
Kuyt was excellent for the start of the season, about our best player along with Alonso & he is a major reason we're in with a shout this year.

Ardent wrote: »

- Has a penchant for falling out with players which sees their form and confidence suffer immensely or sees them sold again in the next transfer window

Like who Torres,Arbeloa,Carragher,Gerrard,Reina,Mascherano? players who virtually idolise the man? or are you refering to the jack daniels swigging pennant again?

Ardent wrote: »

His performance in the transfer market is more miss than hit, e.g., £31M for Babel and Keane and they struglle to get a game (Dirk Kuyt for £11M!).

Alonso,Torres, Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa, Reina, Riera, Mascherano-exciting young players like Pachecho & Nemeth....you're talking hoop.

Ardent wrote: »

- They used to call Claudio Ranieri "Tinkerman" - I think that title should now belong to Benitez, his rotation policy has often been bemoaned in the press in recent years.

i'm not even gonna justify this steaming pile of ****e with a response tbh.

Ardent wrote: »

- His routine use of the press to air the club's dirty laundry is very much against the Liverpool Way

It was Rafa who informed the clubs fans of the war that was going on behind the scenes with the owners & parry, personally i think we should be grateful

Ardent wrote: »

As for prospective replacement managers, I would be happy with anyone from: Hiddink, Mourinho, O'Neill.

lets get this straight, you say Rafa is against the Liverpool way, then ask for Mourinho to replace him? go & ****e.

Ardent wrote: »

You feel with O'Neill in particular - if he had our players at his disposal - that he would canter to the title. You just have to see how Villa are flying right now and how their players are loving their football. The same players start every week and there's an understanding between them that's sorely lacking at Liverpool. Not sure how he would do in Europe but I think he'd be fine.

If he had our players at his disposal? the players rafa bought like? the players Rafa is mounting a league challenge with? so i was correct in saying you want Rafa gone because he is not running away with the league.

Villa will fall away a bit, they are an excellent team & MON is a very good manager, but all the things you bemoan Rafa about above are true of him too. his public handling of the Barry affair is against the "liverpool way", he has carte blanche when it comes to transfers, yet still regularly picks up duds...they start every weak cause their squad is not strong enough, which is the fault of MON, they will fall away as there players start to pick up injuries and suffer from exhaustion toward the seasons end. (plus, we're still ahead of them & comfortably better than them! despite MON working with the perfect owner & Rafa working with a clown & a pair of baffoons!)

PiE · 22-01-2009 02:15PM

Boggles wrote: »

Do you actually believe that?

Yes I do. His outburst about Fergie was completely out of character. He had never done anything like that before, all of his press conferences were always "we must focus on the next game" standard stuff. He's a methodical man, often critisized for overthinking things, he doesn't say or do things in public without considering the consequences - yet he "just happens" to snap right after Gerrard gets arrested for assault? I don't buy it.

The contract negotiations were more smoke but also brought up to highlight much, much deeper problems at the club. Namely: Rick Parry.

The Chessplayer · 22-01-2009 02:15PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Is this thread for ****ing real?

whoever spouted the ****e about Utd being blighted by injuries are oblivious to the fact that Torres has missed most of the season, Skrtel has missed a lot of the season, Gerrard was out for a few weeks after an operation.....seriously this thread should be ****ing locked. Retarded thread.

If i'm not mistaken this thread has been put here cause Liverpool, who came 4th last season, are not running away with the PL title......****ing retarded.

The point is that the way things have gone for us (other top 4's results), we have not taken advantage, and we won't get a better chance.

Skrtel injury was not a problem as we had Agger in cover, unlike last season when Agger got injured and Hyppia had to fill in. Torres was a huge loss, but pushing Gerrard up front made up for this.

I wouldn't usually reply to a sad post like yours, but it raises an interesting point: Liverpool's league positions under Benitez.

It is a fact that Rafa came out this season admitting that his policy of rotation was a failure. Took him long enough!

Also, before the Chelsea game he was talking about defending deep etc., only for Gerrard to rightly undermine him by saying that other teams have put all their men behind the ball against Chelsea and it hasn't worked, and that it was time to take the game to them. Also, there was the comedy of playing Gerrard in all those different positions and expecting him to be the best left or right winger in the world. We're lucky that Gerrard wields such a strong influence.

We haven't challenged for the league under Rafa because of his misguided tactics. Now that we have been lucky enough to get in pole position, he is messing it up. Plonker!!!

Stoke. Lucas. Kuyt.

ntlbell · 22-01-2009 02:17PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Is this thread for ****ing real?

whoever spouted the ****e about Utd being blighted by injuries are oblivious to the fact that Torres has missed most of the season, Skrtel has missed a lot of the season, Gerrard was out for a few weeks after an operation.....seriously this thread should be ****ing locked. Retarded thread.

If i'm not mistaken this thread has been put here cause Liverpool, who came 4th last season, are not running away with the PL title......****ing retarded.

ronaldo.scholes,owen,rooney,brown,rio. to name but a few

comparing this to torres and skertel is just stupid.

Headshot · 22-01-2009 02:17PM

Melion · 22-01-2009 02:19PM

Can we lock this shít?

deisedevil · 22-01-2009 02:21PM

It makes me laugh when I hear Pool fans say every year that that have a shot at the league and that they are good enough, yet when you question the fact that their manager still hasn't won it and doesn't seem to be bringing them closer to it they back him up and defend him to the last. I wouldn't be defending Benitez tooth and nail like some are. It's pathetic!

deadhead13 · 22-01-2009 02:24PM

The Chessplayer for someone "not trying to agitate people" your failing miserably.

eagle eye · 22-01-2009 02:24PM

deisedevil wrote: »

It makes me laugh when I hear Pool fans say every year that that have a shot at the league and that they are good enough, yet when you question the fact that their manager still hasn't won it and doesn't seem to be bringing them closer to it they back him up and defend him to the last. I wouldn't be defending Benitez tooth and nail like some are. It's pathetic!

Did you read the thread. I refer you to my post earlier. And I'm not a Liverpool fan but what you say is making me laugh, because a lot of you supposed United fans don't know the histroy of your present manager.

eagle eye wrote: »

Alex Ferguson was seven years at United before he won a League. And he was almost gone but for an FA Cup win in 1990, four years after he joined the club. Thats all he won in his first five years, one FA Cup.

Savman · 22-01-2009 02:25PM

Villa for the PL. Lock this mofo.

whatawaster · 22-01-2009 02:28PM

The Chessplayer wrote: »

It is a fact that Rafa came out this season admitting that his policy of rotation was a failure. Took him long enough!

Give me the quote where he says his rotation policy was a failure.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

We haven't challenged for the league under Rafa because of his misguided tactics.

Right. It has nothing to do with the fact that Rafa inherited a squad full of useless, overpaid and injury-prone players and he has had to slowly build the squad without huge money to spend. He's made mistakes in the transfer market, who doesn't, but he is quick to get rid of his duds, often at a profit.
Only an idiot would claim Liverpool are not closer to Chelsea and United than they were 4 years ago when Rafa took over. And in those 4 years Chelsea have way outspent us. United i believe have spent comparable amounts, but have been able to focus it on high profile signings. So Rafa has done brilliantly to slowly build us into a team capable of challenging for the title, and he's done it the right way, laying great foundations for the future in the process with his young signings.
Martin O'Neill spent the second or third highest in Europe in transfer fees this summer, but it's rarely mentioned. He's a good manager, but Rafa has proven himself to be one of the best in Europe. That's why he'd be a contender for every big job in Europe were they to be available.

Melion · 22-01-2009 02:28PM

deisedevil wrote: »

It makes me laugh when I hear Pool fans say every year that that have a shot at the league and that they are good enough, yet when you question the fact that their manager still hasn't won it and doesn't seem to be bringing them closer to it they back him up and defend him to the last. I wouldn't be defending Benitez tooth and nail like some are. It's pathetic!

We're not getting closer to the title?

There's the door, get the fúck out.

Paparazzo · 22-01-2009 02:29PM

Rafa is seriously cracking mentally. Liverpool have thrown away their lead, they're seriously off form and even when they were miles ahead almost every fan and pundid still predicted man-u to win the league because they were expecting this woeful run.

LuckyLloyd · 22-01-2009 02:29PM

The Chessplayer wrote: »

MO'N is a great manager. No football person would ever say otherwise, and he's a cut about Benitez.

lol. 'Football people'.

Winning the Spanish league > Winning the Scottish League.
Winning the FA Cup / Spanish Cup > Winning the Carling Cup / Scottish Cup
Winning the UEFA Cup / Champions League > Not winning in Europe

Benitez is 48. O' Neill is 56.

Conclusion? O' Neill still aspires to be in Rafa Benitez's bracket.

deisedevil wrote: »

If Rafa had not won the CL would he still be manager now?

If he doesn't bring Liverpool to the PL title or a CL title this season do you think he should stay?

Just wondering.

Maybe no to the first part. The only way he isn't there next season is if he voluntarily walks.

ntlbell wrote: »

why do people keep saying things like this

jose two prem titles back to back two cl semi's - gone.

grant cl final second in the leage - gone.

And look how well Chelsea appear this season for that lack of stability. Just because Abramovich has no patience doesn't mean that his personnel decisions should be mimicked.

Paparazzo · 22-01-2009 02:30PM

Melion wrote: »

We're not getting closer to the title?

There's the door, get the fúck out.

The only reason liverpool are getting "closer" to the title is because of arsenal and chelsea's poor form. Nothing to do with rafa's managerial genius

Melion · 22-01-2009 02:32PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

Rafa is seriously cracking mentally. Liverpool have thrown away their lead, they're seriously off form and even when they were miles ahead almost every fan and pundid still predicted man-u to win the league because they were expecting this woeful run.

When were we ever miles ahead?

deisedevil · 22-01-2009 02:32PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Did you read the thread. I refer you to my post earlier. And I'm not a Liverpool fan but what you say is making me laugh, because a lot of you supposed United fans don't know the histroy of your present manager.

When Fergie came we had nearly been relegated the year before, his first season we finished 11th, in the next season we finished 2nd. The club were in an awful state when Fergie came in. Were Liverpool in that kind of position when Benitez came in? What has he done that Houlier didn't do? He won the CL.

I know my history, especially on the Fergie era and what he did. He had a lot less to work with than Benitez did. Benitez hasn't made any considerable improvement in terms of PL in my opinion and I have huge respect for Pool fans who admit that.

Boggles · 22-01-2009 02:32PM

Melion wrote: »

We're not getting closer to the title?

That's a question that can't be answered til May.

Melion · 22-01-2009 02:33PM

Paparazzo wrote: »

The only reason liverpool are getting "closer" to the title is because of arsenal and chelsea's poor form. Nothing to do with rafa's managerial genius

Yep, thats the reason. Is that why United are now top? If Arsenal and Chelsea were playing well, would they be the top 2?

No, so you can join the other clueless poster out the door.

ntlbell · 22-01-2009 02:33PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Give me the quote where he says his rotation policy was a failure.

Right. It has nothing to do with the fact that Rafa inherited a squad full of useless, overpaid and injury-prone players and he has had to slowly build the squad without huge money to spend. He's made mistakes in the transfer market, who doesn't, but he is quick to get rid of his duds, often at a profit.
Only an idiot would claim Liverpool are not closer to Chelsea and United than they were 4 years ago when Rafa took over. And in those 4 years Chelsea have way outspent us. .

can someone explain how coming 4th 11 points behind the league leaders is challenging for the title?

the year before 3rd and 21 points behind this is not challening my friend.

if you end up 2/3rd this year 9/10/11 points behind where's the progress?

The Problem with Rafa Benitez...

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