Words fail me..

applehunter · 06-01-2009 04:38AM

Waterford's support in hurling is sh1te as well.

Bunch of moaning glass blowers. :mad:

At least the soccer team has some history of some sort of success.

Not that youd know it in that kip.

Waterford.....forever in the shadow of Cork.

I would have no issue with you supporting Man Utd. btw.

Daysha · 06-01-2009 10:48AM

applehunter wrote: »

Waterford's support in hurling is sh1te as well.

Bunch of moaning glass blowers. :mad:

At least the soccer team has some history of some sort of success.

Not that youd know it in that kip.

Waterford.....forever in the shadow of Cork.

I would have no issue with you supporting Man Utd. btw.

lol, there's so many things i'd love to say right now based on whats been happening down there recently, but your obviously just trying to get a rise out of me, so i'll leave it there.

We're discussing the state of the LOI, not the state of Waterford GAAs support.

_blank_ · 06-01-2009 10:57AM

that was a hugely honest post deise, fair play to you.

Good insight there.

LuckyLloyd · 06-01-2009 12:05PM

SectionF wrote: »

The example of rugby looks compelling, but it is entirely irrelevant. Rugby appeals to a radically different demographic and has a lot more going for it in terms of aspirational snob value. Lots of people follow rugby for lots of reasons that are not inherent to the game.

Football appeals to mostly young, working class males. In the EPL, it has celebrity power. Here, it's only advantage is the superiority of the game itself.

Hi there 10 years ago. Go to Thomond park for a game and tell me that's true. Rugby is significantly broadening it's appeal - and it's playing base. Not only does it steal potential LOI fans, it is stealing potential future footballers too. Why? Because it's a clever operation.

LuckyLloyd · 06-01-2009 12:07PM

applehunter wrote: »

Waterford's support in hurling is sh1te as well.

Bunch of moaning glass blowers. :mad:

At least the soccer team has some history of some sort of success.

Not that youd know it in that kip.

Waterford.....forever in the shadow of Cork.

I would have no issue with you supporting Man Utd. btw.

Cork people lol.

_blank_ · 06-01-2009 12:13PM

<-- tbh

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Cork people lol.

SectionF · 06-01-2009 12:26PM

Excellent post Deise.

SectionF · 06-01-2009 12:55PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hi there 10 years ago. Go to Thomond park for a game and tell me that's true. Rugby is significantly broadening it's appeal - and it's playing base. Not only does it steal potential LOI fans, it is stealing potential future footballers too. Why? Because it's a clever operation.

Munster, as everyone knows, is a singular exception, and the rest of rugby is still essentially aspirational middle class. I'm not knocking the game, btw. What I'm saying is that it is an ideal vehicle for marketers, which football isn't, so we need to think beyond the simplistic refrain that says rugby is a model for the development of football.
As for development of players, there probably have never been more future footballers in Ireland than now. It would be nice if we had a viable league for them to play in.

stovelid · 06-01-2009 01:03PM

Fair play Deise.

As sad as the post makes me, it's refreshing to hear somebody not placing the entire blame for low attendance at the feet of the LOI 'standard' or the attitude of its fans, and acknowledging that it is a massive struggle to compete with the excitement of the GAA and EPL.

Daysha · 06-01-2009 01:57PM

stovelid wrote: »

As sad as the post makes me, it's refreshing to hear somebody not placing the entire blame for low attendance at the feet of the LOI 'standard' or the attitude of its fans, and acknowledging that it is a massive struggle to compete with the excitement of the GAA and EPL.

Yeah, that's why I was compelled to post all that tbh. I know there are quite a few anti-GAAs but there can be no denying what sort of influence it has on the country.

Benedict XVI · 07-01-2009 02:02AM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Football in Australia refers to Australian Rules Football.

This is not quiet correct,only in certain parts of Australia, Victoria in particular, is Australian Rules Football known as Football.

In other part, NSW in particular, Football is Rugby League Football

I have really enjoyed this thread, except for the soccer v football debate, but the man from Waterford has saved it since, I'll give my own 2c worth later

themont85 · 07-01-2009 05:27AM

SligoBrewer wrote: »

The IRFU run 4 franchises.
1)The idea of franchise football sickens me.
2)There are 20 ish football clubs in this country. Each steeped in history in heritage. Which 4 do you save or more importantly, which 15 do you destroy?

Provencial rugby whilst having a history in Ireland was never that big until a few years ago. There are a huge number of rugby clubs in this country too, the IRFU had to 'kill' of any notion of proffesionalism with these clubs in order to run proper pro rugby in this country. Whilst the club game struggles now to get big gates and its standard is below what it could, it still maintains its traditions, members and a lot of its supporters of old. The LoI clubs could be maintained on an ameteur/semi pro basis much like AIL clubs below a top tier of lesser clubs/franchises. The standard of the league would drop but fair play to you lads you would still support and keep your club.

SectionF wrote: »

Munster, as everyone knows, is a singular exception, and the rest of rugby is still essentially aspirational middle class. I'm not knocking the game, btw. What I'm saying is that it is an ideal vehicle for marketers, which football isn't, so we need to think beyond the simplistic refrain that says rugby is a model for the development of football.
As for development of players, there probably have never been more future footballers in Ireland than now. It would be nice if we had a viable league for them to play in.

Average gates in provincial rugby have grown massively in the last few years. Leinster have 10k season ticket holders and an average of 16.5k at their games. Munster too have a great number of fans. But looking at Leinster, despite the fact that they dissapoint their fans year on year they have managed to build a healthy support base from accross the spectrum-this is because the standard is great and they play in a high quality European club competition-and they have built a passionate support base. Believe me there's plenty of people from different classes at the games.

I don't understand how you can discount rugby as a way of looking at how proffesional sports can be run in this country. GAA has a stronghold in this country and pro rugby has a huge footing in this country and is growing rapidly. Football is being left behind big time in the proffesional stakes which is bad.

I want a pro soccer league in this country as much as you do, but how do you propose a 'viable league' in this country. Do you believe it can be done with the number of current clubs? (please don't say that we should get the barstoolers to stop ignoring the league).

CiaranC · 07-01-2009 09:11AM

themont85 wrote: »

Provencial rugby whilst having a history in Ireland was never that big until a few years ago. There are a huge number of rugby clubs in this country too, the IRFU had to 'kill' of any notion of proffesionalism with these clubs in order to run proper pro rugby in this country. Whilst the club game struggles now to get big gates and its standard is below what it could, it still maintains its traditions, members and a lot of its supporters of old. The LoI clubs could be maintained on an ameteur/semi pro basis much like AIL clubs below a top tier of lesser clubs/franchises. The standard of the league would drop but fair play to you lads you would still support and keep your club.

Forget about franchise football. Its never gonna happen.

You suggest a top tier of franchises over the league we have now? Who is going to attend these matches? I sure as hell wouldnt.

Your idea is basically to alienate the existing football fan in this country on the off chance that Paddy Premiership will somehow be dying to see Leinster vs. Queen Of The South or Connaught vs. Linfield. Laughable.

Pure Cork · 07-01-2009 12:41PM

themont85 wrote: »

Provencial rugby whilst having a history in Ireland was never that big until a few years ago. There are a huge number of rugby clubs in this country too, the IRFU had to 'kill' of any notion of proffesionalism with these clubs in order to run proper pro rugby in this country. Whilst the club game struggles now to get big gates and its standard is below what it could, it still maintains its traditions, members and a lot of its supporters of old. The LoI clubs could be maintained on an ameteur/semi pro basis much like AIL clubs below a top tier of lesser clubs/franchises. The standard of the league would drop but fair play to you lads you would still support and keep your club.

The LOI is the pinnacle of domestic football in Ireland. There are already leagues like the MSL, LSL, etc. which you could equate with AIL clubs. How many teams should be in the top tier of franchises? If there we four franchises for example, it would be a really sh*t league. Having franchises from other countries (except NI) isn't even a remote possibility.

themont85 wrote: »

Do you believe it can be done with the number of current clubs?

Do you think there are too many or too few clubs?

CiaranC wrote: »

Forget about franchise football. Its never gonna happen.

You suggest a top tier of franchises over the league we have now? Who is going to attend these matches? I sure as hell wouldnt.

Your idea is basically to alienate the existing football fan in this country on the off chance that Paddy Premiership will somehow be dying to see Leinster vs. Queen Of The South or Connaught vs. Linfield. Laughable.

Surely Linfield wouldn't be included? There would be an Ulster franchise instead. Or are Linfield better than the LOI clubs? Why would Scottish clubs be included?

CiaranC · 07-01-2009 12:44PM

I assumed we were talking about applying the rugby model to the LOI. Provinces vs. foreign clubs. Its a farcical suggestion.

SectionF · 07-01-2009 12:44PM

themont85 wrote: »

The LoI clubs could be maintained on an ameteur/semi pro basis much like AIL clubs below a top tier of lesser clubs/franchises.

How many franchise clubs do you propose, and what league would they play in? It's all very well citing rugby's success, but for this to be credible you need specifics.

Average gates in provincial rugby have grown massively in the last few years. Leinster have 10k season ticket holders and an average of 16.5k at their games. Munster too have a great number of fans. But looking at Leinster, despite the fact that they dissapoint their fans year on year they have managed to build a healthy support base from accross the spectrum-this is because the standard is great and they play in a high quality European club competition-and they have built a passionate support base. Believe me there's plenty of people from different classes at the games.

Rugby has done well, and deserves its success. I'm not some sniffy purist who eschews all other sports, and I've been to Leinster games. Believe me, passion is not the first quality that I would associate with Leinster support. There are a few brave souls who try to get the crowd behind the team, but on the whole it's a rather polite, respectable affair, and a very different experience to the intensity of football.

Football is being left behind big time in the proffesional stakes which is bad.

We can agree on that much.

I want a pro soccer league in this country as much as you do, but how do you propose a 'viable league' in this country. Do you believe it can be done with the number of current clubs? (please don't say that we should get the barstoolers to stop ignoring the league).

There is something to be said for a cull of clubs at the top level. Certainly the introduction of a new club in Fingal north Dublin was perverse. (Another wheeze driven by a political agenda: is there no end to the stupidity of our elected reps when it comes to football?)

Likewise, the practice of having clubs move around willy-nilly within Dublin has led to a loss of identity, though that may be about to end with the movement of Shamrock Rovers back south of the Liffey. Dublin is a big city, and we are not expecting EPL-scale clubs here.

In the short-term, we need a reality check on the viability of full-time football. If club incomes can support it, well and good, but the days of taking a massive punt hoping that the crowds will follow are over.

Long-term, the only future is for elite clubs in an all-Ireland league, a proposal that had some problems, not least its threat to existing cosy arrangements, but that had far more specifics attached to it than this 'copy rugby' doctrine that is emerging. Needless to say, some of the more marginal clubs will have a problem with this, but hard choices will need to be made.

As for getting barstoolers to stop ignoring Irish football, I'm afraid you'll have to bear with me on that. Football is not going to work under any format in Ireland unless we can get past current monopoly of undying, exclusive identification with British clubs at the expense of the game here. The philistine attitude of Irish football fans to the game here is probably the biggest single issue facing football. This is something rugby doesn't suffer, since it shares a more or less level playing pitch with its British competition.

We need to change the culture. That's a long-term project that won't be helped by waving a Leinster match programme at the problem.

Pure Cork · 07-01-2009 12:45PM

CiaranC wrote: »

I assumed we were talking about applying the rugby model to the LOI. Provinces vs. foreign clubs.

The rugby model is not applicable to football.

CiaranC · 07-01-2009 12:57PM

Pure Cork wrote: »

The rugby model is not applicable to football.

lol, seriously? Thats what Im saying. Do try and keep up. Poster above suggests the rugby style franchise model as a tier above LOI.

Pure Cork · 07-01-2009 01:00PM

CiaranC wrote: »

lol, seriously? Thats what Im saying. Do try and keep up. Poster above suggests the rugby style franchise model as a tier above LOI.

I agreed with your point. Keep up.

CiaranC · 07-01-2009 02:00PM

Zebra3 · 07-01-2009 03:56PM

themont85 wrote: »

Provencial rugby whilst having a history in Ireland was never that big until a few years ago. There are a huge number of rugby clubs in this country too, the IRFU had to 'kill' of any notion of proffesionalism with these clubs in order to run proper pro rugby in this country. Whilst the club game struggles now to get big gates and its standard is below what it could, it still maintains its traditions, members and a lot of its supporters of old. The LoI clubs could be maintained on an ameteur/semi pro basis much like AIL clubs below a top tier of lesser clubs/franchises. The standard of the league would drop but fair play to you lads you would still support and keep your club.

Average gates in provincial rugby have grown massively in the last few years. Leinster have 10k season ticket holders and an average of 16.5k at their games. Munster too have a great number of fans. But looking at Leinster, despite the fact that they dissapoint their fans year on year they have managed to build a healthy support base from accross the spectrum-this is because the standard is great and they play in a high quality European club competition-and they have built a passionate support base. Believe me there's plenty of people from different classes at the games.

I don't understand how you can discount rugby as a way of looking at how proffesional sports can be run in this country. GAA has a stronghold in this country and pro rugby has a huge footing in this country and is growing rapidly. Football is being left behind big time in the proffesional stakes which is bad.

I want a pro soccer league in this country as much as you do, but how do you propose a 'viable league' in this country. Do you believe it can be done with the number of current clubs? (please don't say that we should get the barstoolers to stop ignoring the league).

How many games a year do the provinces play? It seems like sports "fans" in this country are only interested in following sides that don't play a huge amount of games each year, i.e. Ireland rugby and footie teams, GAA counties (most fans don't do winter) and rugby's provincial sides.

Any football franchise here playing in the Barclays League or a pan-European competition will be playing 40 odd games a season. Too much effort for most of their potential customers imho.

themont85 · 07-01-2009 04:25PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

How many games a year do the provinces play? It seems like sports "fans" in this country are only interested in following sides that don't play a huge amount of games each year, i.e. Ireland rugby and footie teams, GAA counties (most fans don't do winter) and rugby's provincial sides.

Any football franchise here playing in the Barclays League or a pan-European competition will be playing 40 odd games a season. Too much effort for most of their potential customers imho.

9 Magners league games and at least 3 HC games at home with the same number away. The 16.5k average gate is for all these games, including a less glamourous fixture against the likes of Glasgow. Rugby is a far more attritional sport, it can't have any more than 1 game a week. This doesn't include the glamour international or knockout stages of the HC. Initally most of Leinster's 10k season ticket holders probably came to games for glamourous HC games but now they'll go to run of the mill league game. BTW Secion F, i've foundmost of Leinster's games to have better atmospheres than any LoI match i have attended in the past. And 10k season ticket holders can be described as fairly 'hardcore' support for a sport like rugby which doesn't have the universal appeal like soccer does.

To answer the above question by another poster, of course there are too many clubs-this country has a population of 4 million and unlike Scotland who have a decent standard has the GAA beast to compete with and a competant proffesional rugby structure. I'm not suggesting a regionalisation of soccer here, but rationalising the number of clubs into franchises perhaps could work.

Pure Cork · 07-01-2009 04:38PM

themont85 wrote: »

To answer the above question by another poster, of course there are too many clubs-this country has a population of 4 million and unlike Scotland who have a decent standard has the GAA beast to compete with and a competant proffesional rugby structure. I'm not suggesting a regionalisation of soccer here, but rationalising the number of clubs into franchises perhaps could work.

What clubs would you get rid of? Last year, there were 22 clubs in the top two tiers of Irish football. 22 clubs isn't a lot, especially when there are two divisions. However, in my opinion, there are two many Dublin clubs.

themont85 · 07-01-2009 04:45PM

Pure Cork wrote: »

What clubs would you get rid of? Last year, there were 22 clubs in the top two tiers of Irish football. 22 clubs isn't a lot, especially when there are two divisions. However, in my opinion, there are two many Dublin clubs.

Don't get rid of these clubs but start afresh new clubs but make all current LoI clubs non proffesional.

Pure Cork · 07-01-2009 04:52PM

themont85 wrote: »

Don't get rid of these clubs but start afresh new clubs but make all current LoI clubs non proffesional.

There's already leagues like the MSL, LSL, etc. The LOI is the pinnacle of Irish football. Why would you get rid of clubs that have fans and history, and replace them with franchises? I could understand if you were suggesting restructuring the league, restructuring clubs, etc. Where would you have the franchises based? How many franchises would there be?

stovelid · 07-01-2009 04:58PM

LOL, we've lost all the casual fans to cross-channel football. Now we're suggesting alienating the minority of remaining fans who have stayed loyal to their clubs by scrapping them to create franchises which will probably be ignored by new fans anyway.

bohsman · 07-01-2009 05:02PM

themont85 wrote: »

Don't get rid of these clubs but start afresh new clubs but make all current LoI clubs non proffesional.

How many new clubs, where would they play, who would they play against?

invincibleirish · 07-01-2009 06:01PM

SectionF wrote: »

As for getting barstoolers to stop ignoring Irish football, I'm afraid you'll have to bear with me on that. Football is not going to work under any format in Ireland unless we can get past current monopoly of undying, exclusive identification with British clubs at the expense of the game here. The philistine attitude of Irish football fans to the game here is probably the biggest single issue facing football. This is something rugby doesn't suffer, since it shares a more or less level playing pitch with its British competition.

No disrespect but this point suggests to me bitterness on your part. 'barstoolers' & philistines are free and able to pick who they can and cannot support. Its not their fault that the LoI clubs are in a cycle of boom and bust. No one is obligated to support a certain club, league or sport.

-barstool supporter.

Zebra3 · 07-01-2009 06:05PM

themont85 wrote: »

9 Magners league games and at least 3 HC games at home with the same number away. The 16.5k average gate is for all these games, including a less glamourous fixture against the likes of Glasgow. Rugby is a far more attritional sport, it can't have any more than 1 game a week. This doesn't include the glamour international or knockout stages of the HC.

So maybe 15 games in a 52 week year. Seems I made a very valid point then.

_blank_ · 07-01-2009 06:08PM

themont85 wrote: »

start afresh new clubs

Who supports these new clubs?

Not me, that's for sure.

What you are proposing is that we scrap teams that already have a following, however small, in favour of teams which NOBODY will support.

History shows that the vast majority of Irish people have zero interest in supporting a national league. By scrapping the teams which already exist, you are then getting rid of the small amount of people who do actively follow the league. How could I support some other club above Shelbourne? WHY would I support Dublin United. You expect me to stand shoulder with Bohs, Rovers and Pats fans? Get a bleedin' grip here.

Where will they play? The same stadiums currently used? Sure people won't go to them. What makes you think this will change by inventing new teams?

Where will they get money? Nobody is investing in the current clubs, why would they invest in the newly invented clubs? People don't go to matches, why would they go matches for the new teams?

What would draw fans?

I ask this of every person who ever suggests franchise football, and I never get an answer.

Words fail me..

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