Homosexuality as a Sin(off topic from other thread)

Nodin said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Húrin
There are some people who think that Christians are more likely to imagine that gay people are paedophiles. These people are bigots..
Some are. Some have in this thread. If I say "all" I'm being a bigot. But as I haven't and don't, well then........

I don't recall anyone here saying homosexuals are paedophiles. Please point to the posts.

For myself, the closest I would place any homosexual to paedophilia is the man/boy campaign by leading homosexuals like Alan Ginsburg. But I assume they define paedophilia so that their boys fall outside the child classification.

I assume most homosexuals draw the line where heterosexuals do with regard to age.

Nodin said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDN
In fairness Wolfsbane is from Northern Ireland. . Institutional sectarianism, Kincora boys home....and presumably similar problems with emmigration. There never was a 'golden age' where there were no ills.

I never said it was a perfect society - just that it was much safer and kinder generally then than now. A basic Christian morality restrained young heathens like myself. Now that that has been thrown out, the morality of hedonism has replaced it - with the exception of the canon of political correctness.

Even the latter only survives because it is enforced by the police and propogated by the media. But the hedonist will triumph in the end, until it all becomes so bad that a new morality - maybe Islam - will be gladly accepted for peace and order. Nature abhors a vacuum, and all that.

Or maybe it is just these dark December days that are getting to me, and society is growing better every day, in every way. :pac:

Boston said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I don't recall anyone here saying homosexuals are paedophiles. Please point to the posts.

For myself, the closest I would place any homosexual to paedophilia is the man/boy campaign by leading homosexuals like Alan Ginsburg. But I assume they define paedophilia so that their boys fall outside the child classification.

I assume most homosexuals draw the line where heterosexuals do with regard to age.
Sorry but wtf are you talking about with regards to man/boy campaign? I assume a tiny percentage of people, both gay and straight, disregard the laws surrounding age of consent.

Yes, that is what I said.

I'm just a bit confused as to how to classify such folk - are they homosexual or heterosexual paedophiles? But is Ginsburg not regarded by his peers as a homosexual? Are the rock stars who had sex with 12 year old girls not regarded as heterosexuals?

Anyway, my point was that I do not class general homosexuals as paedophiles, any more than I class general heterosexuals that way.

kiffer said:

So you're happy to say any rule from the OT that Jesus does not reinforce in the NT is off the statute books...
What about deals and promises?

All deals ands promises were fulfilled by/in Christ. Maybe you have an example in mind?

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Not all in the same sense. As His creatures, yes. But as individuals, no.
So, unlike other Christians that have posted on boards recently you are saying that while God loves Animals and Humans in general he does not love specific sinners?

He loves all sinners specifically as His creatures, made in His image. But He loves some specific sinners enough to die for them.

Quote:
Yes, God is angry with even those He loves when they sin - as you accept:

God saves those whom He personally loves. That means they are not allowed to live so as to end up in hell. Sometimes that means He kills them physically, to separate them from their sin.
So again ... God doesn't love some people... what does he feel for those that he does not personally love?

He is kind to even to the unthankful and evil, but He regards them with wrath.

Check this for the wrath of God in the NT:http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=wrath%20of%20god&version1=50&searchtype=all&bookset=2

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He doesn't. When He tells me something I have previously thought the opposite about, that is a humbling experience.
I can imagine it would be quite humbling indeed.
Again I wonder about this telling
What sort of thing is God telling you you are wrong about? Are we still talking wordless communications here?

Mostly me reading the Bible and suddenly seeing the meaning of a passage that I never grasped before. And God pressing that upon my conscience.

An agreement! It's a miracle!
I'll keep an open mind... with regards to this ... if you keep an open mind with regards to the age of the Earth? Deal or no Deal? Nah who am I kidding, we both know that's not going to work as a deal...

Well, I can see how the age of the earth might be vast without contradicting the Bible - the prior creation theory, for example. Just seems very unlikely, and doesn't solve most of the evolution problems anyway.

So I'll hold you to that deal!

Generally spat upon - like Creationists are? No, I don't believe homosexuals should be spat upon. But I do believe their sin should be named as sin - like fornication and other sins. I don't believe they should get an exemption because they are gay, any more than the fornicator or adulterer.
Ah you've found my massively obvious magic button...
I don't think creationists should be spat on, but I do think that the should be kept out of the science class room, and I also think that the general awareness of the facts of that debate could be better presented to the public (blah blah blah see you in BC&P if you'd like) but that is a issue of facts and testable theories, whereas this homosexuality is an emotive and moral issue.

I appreciate your moderation. Though I point out that I only want the science of creationism in the classrooom, not its religious component.

You think homosexuality is a sin, and if you're right then they'll find oblivion when they die...

No, they won't - they'll find eternal wrath. That's why we preach to them the need of repentance and faith.

but the state should not be making religious laws (again in my opinion can be liberally sprinkled through out my posts)...

That's why I said the State should not meddle with what happens between consenting adults in private. Which is not the same as saying the State should indoctrinate my kids with its view of homosexuality, or imprison pastors for teaching what the Bible says on it.

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I would not want to say that is part of every homosexual's agenda. Some are conscious of the harm it does to the practitioner and would not want other's involved if it can be avoided.
So it's just most gays that are out to make more people (& children) gay... subtle.

Again, I'm not sure most covers it, but some certainly does - if hitting on straights is not unheard of.

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As in Romans 1, for example.
I shall read this when I head up to bed later...

Excellent idea.

Psalm 119:9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word...

105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.

what you said before sounded like you were saying should you fall in to the sin of pride, God would cause(or just allow?) you to sin again in addition to this...

He could allow me to sink into a degrading sin, like homosexuality, to humble my pride.

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It is all in the mind - and what one would find attractive today may change with time. Sexual perversion is a sinful response to stimuli, not merely regards the physical actions but the mental preferences also.
Do you have any independent psychology studies to back up this claim of radical re-orientation? Anecdotes are a good place to start but in the long run some hard facts would be handy...

No, I had read some Christian psychology and observed some abnormal sexual changes - but the Bible is the basis of my conclusions. As to independent psychology studies, psychology has so many competing understandings of human nature.

Quote:
He was gay entirely, then after many years he was straight entirely (as far as I can establish, and taking him at his word).
He met the 'right' woman, and that showed him being gay was not how he was born. It was something he had learned, been conditioned into by circumstances as an adolescent.
An interesting anecdote, I'm sorry to hear that your friend was unhappy, and am of course glad to hear that he is now happy...
I find it hard to believe that someone would actively take on and carry on a life stile that was making them miserable, but then again people do it with jobs so why not...

I'm not aware I said he was particulary unhappy as a homosexual.

This does not mean it is the case for all (or even most) gay people. Again people's feelings are their own... blah blah blah (lets all do the you can't know that I can't know you don't know about their feelings dance!).

I agree, some homosexuals will be very unhappy with their conscience/fear of rejection by their family, etc. Others will revel in the trendiness of their lifestyle.

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Heterosexual Christians are still tempted by the opposite sex. Some former alcoholics and drug-addicts find a particular temptation toward those illicit pleasures. Others of them never do.
Interesting... heterosexuals are tempted by people of the opposite sex... shocking
doesn't really answer my question... you seem to say that the sin is the feeling/thoughts not just the action...

Indeed.

but you don't actually answer the question that was asked ... or the fact it's now past 4am could be clouding my thinking (which I'm willing to admit it might be)
If it's still tempting then they haven't really changed and so are surely not saved?

No, the new person still is not perfect. That doesn't mean he/she is not saved.

It means this lack of perfection may be expressed in his temptation toward fornication, coveting, etc. - or it may mean for those formerly involved with abuse of their body and mind by drugs or sex, that they remember the illicit pleasures and have to wilfully destroy those temptations when they arise. That includes homosexuality.

But for some the particular temptation is gone forever and they only have the normal temptations to struggle with.

Hope that's a bit clearer.

Quote:
We are not responsible for the birds that fly over our heads, but we are for those that nest in our hair. So with sinful thoughts.
What? ok late at night for talking about birds... I take this to be saying that we are responsible for the thoughts that we think... (maybe only if we actually hold on to them?, where as if they enter our mind and then move on again they are as birds flying over our heads)

Yes, we can't help the thoughts that spring into our minds, but we can the thoughts we savour.

Quote:
No. It is our old natures that assault our new natures. That brings the pressure on us. God's grace helps us overcome.
... I'll think about this in the morning. There is something here that signs a sour note, but I'm to sleepy to spot.
All I'll say now is that any attempt at forcing a change (either in yourself or others) will cause stress and pressure...

Indeed it will. In fact, the only true change comes with a dying to the old self. Not something it likes. Conversion to Christ means abandoning all our sinful ways and walking in His holy ways.

The stress and pressure is great at the approach to conversion - an agonising to enter by the strait gate to the narrow road that leads to life. It's death to the old self, the sinful nature. When one is gladly willing to lose all for Christ, then one enters and peace with God replaces the love of sin.

The Christian life has its own stresses and pressures - but they are from temptation to sin and persecution to forsake Christ. All are able to be overcome by the grace God gives. And totally off-set by the joy we have in knowing Him.

Nodin wrote: »

The fact is that (going on Victorian records re Britain) a child is as likely to be abducted now as they were in the 19th century.

Not that I'm disputing such a thing, but do you have any supporting evidence?

DeVore wrote: »

Its sickening that one side of the church (the pope) will happily denounce adults who consent to gay sex. But when one of them DOESNT consent and is underage... well our bishops are determinedly silent. An aside I know but the hypocrisy is smoothering...

DeV.

PDN wrote: »

As I understand it the Pope has condemned child abuse by priests just as forcibly, in fact more so, than he did against homosexuality in general.

I said the *bishops*, specifically the ones in the Cork region, were silent about it. And I havent seen anything like the level of public condemnation or even apology for what was systematic abuse covered up by the organisation (before you give me the "it was only a couple of rogue priests" line).



DeV.